Money and the Church

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I was asked recently why Rome has a great amount of wealth and do the clergy “live high off the hog”. Do a portion of our tithes go to Rome and why doesn’t the Church distribute this money to the poor and live a life of “poverty”.
Thanks
 
I was asked recently why Rome has a great amount of wealth and do the clergy “live high off the hog”. Do a portion of our tithes go to Rome and why doesn’t the Church distribute this money to the poor and live a life of “poverty”.
Thanks
What is their perception of wealth? Have they seen Rome’s bank account?

About the money, there is a special collection called Peter’s pence which is the only actual money that goes to the Vatican. All other collections stay with the parish, or at most goes to the diocese. Each diocese has their own accounting books and the money they get from collections stay there. The Vatican’s income is mostly from tourists going there and other donations.

The Vatican looks rich because of the buildings, but is has been there for centuries, most of them. The value of land is high, but when the space was established to be St. Peter’s, it was nothing more than a cemetery. The artwork there is priceless and was given by the generous Catholic artists. You can’t really put a price on those today, they’re one of a kind.
 
Jesus sets the example…

Six days before Passover Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. They gave a dinner for him there, and Martha served, while Lazarus was one of those reclining at table with him. Mary took a liter of costly perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and dried them with her hair; the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. Then Judas the Iscariot, one (of) his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said, “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?” He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.” (John 12:1-8)
Ask in response why they don’t sell what they have and live a life of poverty, why they don’t sell the minivan with six screen entertainment system and give it to the poor. Like Judas, they really don’t care about the poor. Really, they don’t. Mother Theresa cared about the poor, and she was Catholic.

Catholic Charities is the largest charitable organization on the planet. The Catholic Church probably does more for the poor than most other organizations combined. In the area where I live, Baptists line up at the St. Vincent dePaul to get bags of groceries. The Nights of Columbus are always sacrificing their own time and resources to do some kind of fundraiser for the needy. The monks at the Monastary of the Holy Spirit here in Conyers, Georgia used to run the only fire station in the area and put out many house fires in the surrounding communites. Monastic communities have always welcomed the poor and weary travelers. The Catholic Church invented the hospice and the hospital for crying out loud!

And what if we did sell off the assets? What are we supposed to do, cut up the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel into one inch squares and auction them off on ebay? Is the First Avenue Baptists Church in Cedartown Alabama going to care for priceless works of art like La Pieta? What if we did sell off the assets and give it to the poor, what then? They would claim that we are trying to bribe the poor and Joel Osteena and TD Jakes would claim that living a life of poverty is unnatural, not God’s will, that God want’s us to enjoy his creation or some such thing.

The real answer to the question is that the Catholic Church maintains the real presence of Christ in every tabernacle. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, Christ would not be present. Nothing is too good, no home too lavish for our King.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH

Thanks for pointing that out too. The gold or prescious metal we use in every parish is mostly reserved to those that would come into contact with the Sacred Species. Why would we not adorn our King with gold? We do that with our earthly kings. This not only shows reverence to Christ, but it also tells everyone else that what seems like bread and wine is realy our Heavenly King present in our midst body, blood, soul and divinity.

Does this show the Church is rich? No. The money for this has been given through donation either directly to the parish or though the diocese.
 
I try not to get emotional about apologetics but when a guy drives his BMW 5 series from hs $500,000 home to the coffee shop to buy a five dollar Latte and then proceedes to tell me that the Church is too rich, I just bristle.

This one is one of my pet peeves. :mad:

-Tim-
 
I try not to get emotional about apologetics but when a guy drives his BMW 5 series from hs $500,000 home to the coffee shop to buy a five dollar Latte and then proceedes to tell me that the Church is too rich, I just bristle.

This one is one of my pet peeves. :mad:

-Tim-
The thing is when they see the building and everything in it, they think its a proprietor kind of thing. The truth is every building the Church errects is the collaborative effort of all faithful of the community who give money to make it happen. And some even donate actual time and effort into the parish. The model most people have in their mind when it comes to property owning is that there’s a proprietor who’d fund the contruction of the whole thing. Thats not the case with the Church which is a community-based effort from day 1.

I’m glad I don’t drive a BMW or buy latte 😃
 
To start to get more enlightenment on all our so called richness ,and what the Church has done in and for our world and is still doing read the following book.
How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.
Thomas E, Woods, Jr., Ph.D.
Easy read. Peace, Carlan
 
The answer is really very simple. I think that we’re making it more difficult than it is. The Vatican receives funds via several means: tourism, Peter’s Pence (a direct collection for the Vatican taken once a year; charitable donations; and a form of taxation of the wealthy dioceses around the world. This money is used to run Vatican City, which is a real country with real expenses. It even has a Prime Minister. The money also finances the Holy See. This means that it pays the salaries of all the priests, religious brothers, religious sisters, lay people and the Swiss Guards. These folks do not work for Vatican City. They work for the Holy See itself.

Both Vatican City and the Holy See are one of the most generous employers in the world. Lay people who work there receive a very competitive salary, health benefits, retirement benefits, vacation and sick leave and each time they have a child, they get an additional pay increase over and beyond the annual increase in their salaries. This was started by Pope John XXIII.

Aside from that, the Holy See keeps a certain amount of money in reserve for emergencies. For example, when the earthquake shattered Haiti, beside the assistance that was given by almost every diocese in the world, there was a large amount of money given by the Holy See itself.

Do priests live like kings? Priests come in two groups. There are secular priests. These men are ordained, but they are not consecrated religious. They make no vows. Therefore, they do not belong to a community. They are paid a salary for their services. That salary is paid by their employer: a parish, a school, hospital, chancery, university or the Vatican. The rule is that they are paid whatever is reasonable in their country for professionals at their level of education and according to the position that they hold, basically they are middle class. Obviously, a pastor will be paid more than an associate. They also pay taxes and their own Social Security. When they retire, they have to take care of themselves. The Church does not provide for them. They are secular men, just as most of you are. Like most of you, they have to make plans for their golden years. In addition, they don’t always get that much in cash. From that salary, certain things are deducted. If they live in a rectory, the cost of living in the rectory is taken into account. The parish is providing housing, food, utilities and home maintenance. Obviously, they don’t get as much cash at you would. However, whatever cash they get is theirs to keep. Those who do not have housing, such as many university professors and hospital chaplains, they have to pay rent somewhere. They get more cash.

About 40% of the priests in the Latin Church belong to a religious community. This means that they are monks, brothers, friars, or clerks regular. These men do not get paid. The employer and the religious superior agree on an amount. If a bishop says that parish X needs two priests. Parish X pays the religious community the salary of two priests and provides the housing for the two priests. However, since these priests are religious, they must live in community. What often happens is that the superior may assign more than two to the parish. He may even assign a brother and two priests. The income is still the same. The agreement was for two. The superior of the house must pull aside a certain amount that he must send to the motherhouse. That money is used to care for the older religious and for the education of those in formation. The rest of the money remains in the local house for the needs of the three men living there on two salaries. However, remember that those two salaries, not only support three guys, but part of it is sent to the motherhouse. In reality, the three guys are living on less than two salaries.

Apart from salaries and housing, the Vatican, dioceses, parishes, schools, and other Catholic institutions also pay mortgages like everyone else, utilities, maintenance, property insurance, licenses, etc. Then there are the many dioceses around the world, such as Haiti, which depend on other dioceses and the Vatican for financial subsidies. The people do not make enough money to support their parishes, schools and hospitals. A lot of special collections and private donations are channeled to these poorer dioceses around the world. Don’t think that Vatican City is cheap to operate. They do pay utilities, maintenance for their buildings, insurance policies. I can’t even imagine what it would cost to insure some of those art treasure or even if they can be insured. But they certainly have to be cared for and that costs millions of dollars. You don’t just let the Pieta sit in a corner without taking care of it. You don’t leave books and manuscripts that are a thousand years old or more, sitting on a library shelf. All those things need special care. Lastly, research costs millions of dollars. It’s supported with donations from the private sector.

As you can see, money goes in and money goes out. It does not sit under the pope’s mattress or in some priest’s bank account. Since most priests, bishops, and religious are honest people, we don’t get more than what we’re allowed to get. Each house is different. As I said, secular priests simply get a salary to take care of their expenses and provide for their future. By the way, the pope does not get a salary. He does not occupy the Papal Palace. He lives in an apartment in one section of the building. The rest is museum. The apartment is actually quite modest. It only has room for about six people. I believe that there are four people living in it. I think I read that somewhere. The pope can bring his own furniture from his home or he has to use what’s in storage. That’s less freedom that most people have.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
TimothyH

Thanks for pointing that out too. The gold or prescious metal we use in every parish is mostly reserved to those that would come into contact with the Sacred Species. Why would we not adorn our King with gold? We do that with our earthly kings. This not only shows reverence to Christ, but it also tells everyone else that what seems like bread and wine is realy our Heavenly King present in our midst body, blood, soul and divinity.

Does this show the Church is rich? No. The money for this has been given through donation either directly to the parish or though the diocese.
The contents of the Vatican museum have a value hardly more than the museums of New York, London, or Paris. None of these things have intrinsic value. The rioters in Cairo show us how little they value art for arts sake. Indeed, these things are of value only to the wealthy as a class.
 
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂

The Church is a society and in our civilization money is the means by which the wealth is distributed. At the time of the Reformation, the upper clergy lived very well indeed, were in fact part of the aristocracy. At the other end was the curate, who was often as poor as the proverbial church mouse, was often a pauper,living perhaps even less well than the friars who roamed the countriside, preaching for pennies. Both the curate and the friar were despised for their poverty/for their avarice, and often by the same people. That would include Martin Luther’s father.
 
To start to get more enlightenment on all our so called richness ,and what the Church has done in and for our world and is still doing read the following book.
How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.
Thomas E, Woods, Jr., Ph.D.
Easy read. Peace, Carlan
I have that book and I found it most informative.
 
About the money, there is a special collection called Peter’s pence which is the only actual money that goes to the Vatican. All other collections stay with the parish, or at most goes to the diocese.
Not so, at least in the USA. Here the USCCB, the bishop’s conference, receives money from each diocese to run it. An equal amount (in my diocese anyway) is sent to the Vatican. Look at the annual budget report for your diocese, if you live somewhere that has such a thing. Ours is the “Vatican Assessment” and runs at about 1% of our budget.
 
Not so, at least in the USA. Here the USCCB, the bishop’s conference, receives money from each diocese to run it. An equal amount (in my diocese anyway) is sent to the Vatican. Look at the annual budget report for your diocese, if you live somewhere that has such a thing. Ours is the “Vatican Assessment” and runs at about 1% of our budget.
Thanks. I thought what we do here is reflective of North America, apparently it isn’t so. In the Philippines, we do not have envelopes or even parish registrations. I suspect that the dioceses would just send a fixed percentage to the Vatican. But its not that huge as most dioceses would need the money they make themselves.
 
Thank you,the question posted was not a criticism but a genuine one. I always knew this was the case but had no info to back it up.
 
Thanks. I thought what we do here is reflective of North America, apparently it isn’t so. In the Philippines, we do not have envelopes or even parish registrations. I suspect that the dioceses would just send a fixed percentage to the Vatican. But its not that huge as most dioceses would need the money they make themselves.
I assume that the percent would vary by place, down perhaps to zero. You’re right, some places don’t have the money to pay the priest, much less send money away somewhere.

Do people in the Philippines put cash only in the collection basket, or do they use checks? Lots of people here use checks or maybe electronic transfers. But cash is still common.
 
I try not to get emotional about apologetics but when a guy drives his BMW 5 series from hs $500,000 home to the coffee shop to buy a five dollar Latte and then proceedes to tell me that the Church is too rich, I just bristle.

This one is one of my pet peeves. :mad:

-Tim-
Remenber, that is why he drives a BMW, it is not people like him that makes the church rich. We need our churches to be rich and stay strong to the faith, and we can give up that cup a coffee once a week and put a extra $1.00 in the basket. We won’t die from one less cup of coffee or any drink. Maybe he will! I love my catholic faith.:🙂
 
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