Money for Sacraments and classes?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, my girlfriend is starting R.C.I.A. classes on the 10th and we are required to pay $50.00. Their was no mention of a donation, we have to pay that amount before the 10th, so I was wondering why that would be because it would seem to put some people off on the idea since its how one becomes catholic. Any thoughts?

Things cost money. Especially classes, materials, programs, etc.

That money has to come from somewhere.

So who should pay for it? The teacher of the class? The little old lady going to daily mass?

The Church is the biggest defender and helper of the poor on earth. If one were destitute, there would be no fee.

If this is the case, approach the Father and tell him that 50 dollars is too much and you need help, ask for some shelter and food as well, he will be happy to point you to the help you might need.

If this is about extreme poverty then seek help from the Church.

If this is about entitlement or annoyance at a justifiable fee. Suck it up and pay.

If you really feel that way. That it is a deterrent to someone’s soul. Then once your girlfriend becomes Catholic you two can start a “scholarship” to help others whom you think might be deterred by fifty dollars.

Perhaps as a wedding gift in the future you two could sponsor an entire class of RCIA candidates.

One must keep in mind that RCIA is not about numbers, about pulling in as many people off the streets and signing them up for the Catholic Church as possible. But rather about bringing people to be educated in a faith that can lead them to heaven.

50 dollars?

Sounds pretty cheap to me.

 

[CradleJourney]

I said we do not charge them, however if they are becoming a member of the parish they should be making donations as that is a precept of the church. The donation does not go to RCIA specifically but to the support of the parish. Our Protestant converts are very accustomed to making donations and often are surprised that we don’t have tithing.

My apologies I misread. I am sorry.

 

[ElisabethM]

Sadly, our parish charges for baptisms, $50 at present. It is listed as a “fee” on the baptism application form. When I first learned of the fee, I wrote to our priest questioning this. At that time it was $100, so now they’ve reduced it to $50. If I had I child to be baptized I would not have it done in our parish.

em

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Fees for RCIA are to cover the cost of materials. The reasons are:

1. Not every parish has lots of money in the bank. Some have trouble paying their own bills and really do need the money for the materials.
2. By putting the money down, the individual is making a commitment to the classes/process. Otherwise nothing prevents people from coming into the class, costing the parish money, and then just dropping out at some point for whatever reason.
3. I’ve never heard of anyone who was turned away because they couldn’t afford the RCIA materials fee. Exceptions are always made for individuals in difficult financial situations.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Fees for RCIA are to cover the cost of materials. The reasons are:

1. Not every parish has lots of money in the bank. Some have trouble paying their own bills and really do need the money for the materials.
2. By putting the money down, the individual is making a commitment to the classes/process. Otherwise nothing prevents people from coming into the class, costing the parish money, and then just dropping out at some point for whatever reason.
3. I’ve never heard of anyone who was turned away because they couldn’t afford the RCIA materials fee. Exceptions are always made for individuals in difficult financial situations.

This is a perfect explanation. Thank you.

 

[asd72]

There was no charge when I did RCIA the Easter before last. There were no handouts or books or anything either understandably. I think sometimes people don’t understand the embarrassment of admitting you can’t afford a charge. It’s all very well saying you don’t have to pay if you can’t afford it, but some of these ‘suggested donations’ sound like they are enforced like a fee. If they really are donations and not fees, no one should have to explain themselves to anyone for not making a donation.

 

[MSSheBear]

Fees for RCIA are to cover the cost of materials. The reasons are:

1. Not every parish has lots of money in the bank. Some have trouble paying their own bills and really do need the money for the materials.
2. By putting the money down, the individual is making a commitment to the classes/process. Otherwise nothing prevents people from coming into the class, costing the parish money, and then just dropping out at some point for whatever reason.
3. I’ve never heard of anyone who was turned away because they couldn’t afford the RCIA materials fee. Exceptions are always made for individuals in difficult financial situations.

My parish does not charge for RCIA. We appear to be an affluent parish. Also we didn’t get a bunch of handouts and any gifts of rosaries and such came from individual parishioners. Also we had a couple of people who showed up for one meeting and never came back but the rest of us stayed.

I would have been very hesitant to just show up at a new parish one Sunday and announce to the RCIA director that I was in a difficult financial situation. That said, I am certainly willing to make small donations to subsequent RCIA groups.

 

[tafan]

There is a fine line between charging fees for necessary costs of preparation for a sacrament verses charging for the sacrament itself.
As to RCIA fees, they should cover cost of direct education materials only IMO.
Baptisms should never incur a cost, people should give a stipend/donation in appreciation to the priest and/or parish.
My pet peeve is charging for the use of the church building for weddings. This is flat out wrong. The Church says (rightly so) we are to get married in a church, as it is the proper place for this sacrament. It should not charge for doing so. Yes, people will say there are costs in utilities, cleaning, etc. If that is justification, then we should be charged for going to Sunday mass or going to confession in a church.
Again, everyone, who is able should provide a donation to the parish for being married, just as they should make a donation to the collection plate at mass on Sunday. But that is it.

I think it is a great scandal how much some parishes charge for weddings. They justify it, because they know the couple is spending tens of thousands of dollars on the wedding anyway, why shouldn’t the church get its share? Because it is a sacrament that is freely made available by the Catholic Church.

I was on the finance committee a few years back when we were assigned a new pastor. The fee structure for weddings, and funerals, and baptisms, etc had long been established and we never really questioned it. He saw it, and immediately educated us on the issue. They all went away.

edited to add: well maybe not quite all, the choir was still allowed to charge for its services at a wedding.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

My pet peeve is charging for the use of the church building for weddings. This is flat out wrong. The Church says (rightly so) we are to get married in a church, as it is the proper place for this sacrament. It should not charge for doing so. Yes, people will say there are costs in utilities, cleaning, etc.

Utility companies, cleaning people, etc. all need to be paid or there will be no heat, light, etc. Churches have to find ways of making ends meet, or else they close. Weddings, at least in the northeast, spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on clothing, DJ, reception hall, etc. Asking a couple of hundred be donated to the parish is not too much to ask.

Secondly, many couples getting married are not parishioners. That means they have never contributed towards the parish. If individuals without strong ties to the parish are outright told that there is no fee for the parish, many of them wouldn’t even make a voluntary donation of any kind.

Once again, nothing is set in stone. I’ve never heard of someone denied a wedding because they told the priest they were in bad financial straights.

If that is justification, then we should be charged for going to Sunday mass or going to confession in a church.

Its called the collection.

I think it is a great scandal how much some parishes charge for weddings.

I agree that sometimes pastors, like all people, can get a little greedy. It really is up to the Bishop to set limits on what can be asked for. But there’s nothing new or novel about the approach that is currently used. Its been around for quite some time.

They justify it, because they know the couple is spending tens of thousands of dollars on the wedding anyway, why shouldn’t the church get its share? Because it is a sacrament that is freely made available by the Catholic Church.

Its not a simple matter of “the church getting its share.” Its a reality of the human experience that we make sacrifices for what we think is important. If I’m spending $25,000 (2012’s average cost of a wedding) but am galled by a church fee of $400, what am I saying about my priorities?

I was on the finance committee a few years back when we were assigned a new pastor. The fee structure for weddings, and funerals, and baptisms, etc had long been established and we never really questioned it. He saw it, and immediately educated us on the issue. They all went away.

If a parish is able to do that then great.

Think of it as similar to a Mass stipend. We’re not actually charging for the Mass, its not an absolute requirement. But if someone calls and asks to book a Mass, we ask them for $10.

 

[tafan]

Utility companies, cleaning people, etc. all need to be paid or there will be no heat, light, etc. Churches have to find ways of making ends meet, or else they close. Weddings, at least in the northeast, spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on clothing, DJ, reception hall, etc. Asking a couple of hundred be donated to the parish is not too much to ask.

Secondly, many couples getting married are not parishioners. That means they have never contributed towards the parish. If individuals without strong ties to the parish are outright told that there is no fee for the parish, many of them wouldn’t even make a voluntary donation of any kind.

Once again, nothing is set in stone. I’ve never heard of someone denied a wedding because they told the priest they were in bad financial straights.

Its called the collection.

I agree that sometimes pastors, like all people, can get a little greedy. It really is up to the Bishop to set limits on what can be asked for. But there’s nothing new or novel about the approach that is currently used. Its been around for quite some time.

Its not a simple matter of “the church getting its share.” Its a reality of the human experience that we make sacrifices for what we think is important. If I’m spending $25,000 (2012’s average cost of a wedding) but am galled by a church fee of $400, what am I saying about my priorities?

If a parish is able to do that then great.

Think of it as similar to a Mass stipend. We’re not actually charging for the Mass, its not an absolute requirement. But if someone calls and asks to book a Mass, we ask them for $10.

Fr,
Asking for a donation is not the same as charging a fee, I specifically said in encouraging couples to give a donation is fine. For my comparison about Sunday mass, you say its called a collection, that is exactly correct, a collection. I agree that is my point.

But it is not a fee, and many Churches are explicit and charge a fee or you don’t get married. I am sure they make exceptions for financially strapped couples, but that is besides the point. It is still a fee (or a “required donation”, as a couple of parishes call it around here).

As to individuals, who have no ties to a parish, making no donation. Well now, that is an issue of formation, is it not? A parish has an opportunity to educate a married couple about the precepts of the Church as part of their marriage preparation. I think that would be a good thing to do, make sure a married couple understand all of the precepts of the Church and why they exist. They are, do after all, represent “very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor”. I can think of little more important for a couple to be married, on their path to help each other to heaven, understand the minimum actions needed to follow the two greatest commandments.

The comparison with “booking a mass”, I assume you mean paying a receiving a offering for a requested mass intention is not really applicable. Those are offerings made to the priest and they are heavily regulated in canon law (canons 945-958), so that there can be no possibility of it being turned into a “fee”, and certainly not an unregulated fee. And again, it is for the priest and not the parish. A very different circumstance, IMO.

God Bless

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Fr,
Asking for a donation is not the same as charging a fee, I specifically said in encouraging couples to give a donation is fine.

As I said, we don’t phrase it as a donation because we’d get next to nothing from half the weddings.

For my comparison about Sunday mass, you say its called a collection, that is exactly correct, a collection. I agree that is my point.

The collection at Mass is a completely separate issue. However, people are expected to give to it or else the parish ends up closed. That’s also why parishes end up doing “increased giving campaigns.”

But it is not a fee, and many Churches are explicit and charge a fee or you don’t get married. I am sure they make exceptions for financially strapped couples, but that is besides the point. It is still a fee (or a “required donation”, as a couple of parishes call it around here).

You just said that they make exceptions, therefore it is not a hard and fast rule. It is termed a fee because, once again, many couples would give very little or nothing if only told to make a donation.

As to individuals, who have no ties to a parish, making no donation. Well now, that is an issue of formation, is it not? A parish has an opportunity to educate a married couple about the precepts of the Church as part of their marriage preparation. I think that would be a good thing to do, make sure a married couple understand all of the precepts of the Church and why they exist. They are, do after all, represent “very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor”. I can think of little more important for a couple to be married, on their path to help each other to heaven, understand the minimum actions needed to follow the two greatest commandments.

Sounds good in theory… But when people live out of state there’s not a lot of formation that the local parish ca do…

The comparison with “booking a mass”, I assume you mean paying a receiving a offering for a requested mass intention is not really applicable. Those are offerings made to the priest and they are heavily regulated in canon law (canons 945-958), so that there can be no possibility of it being turned into a “fee”, and certainly not an unregulated fee. And again, it is for the priest and not the parish. A very different circumstance, IMO.

Money (fee, donation, whatever you want to call it) going to a minister is much more potentially scandalous than money that’s being used by the parish to pay bills. And wedding fees and their limits are controlled by the local Ordinary. My diocese has set a maximum fee and clearly states that someone cannot be denied a sacrament due to being unable to afford the fee.

 

[tafan]

Next to nothing from half the weddings, lets say you do 100/year and your fee is 200. It would cost your parish 10k. Not an inconsiderable sum, we went through the same calculation a few years back when a new pastor told us no fee. And we are a poor parish, over 95 percent Hispanic, half of those immigrants who are very poor.

Yet the money from all true donations from all sacraments was almost as much as the fees we had been charging. Most times, The other half ended up donating more than the fee we had been charging.

BTW, you brought up the comparison to the collection, not me. To say it is totally different now is to make my point: we don’t charge fees for the Eucharist, confession, I have a hard time understanding why we charge fees for weddings and baptisms.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Next to nothing from half the weddings, lets say you do 100/year and your fee is 200.

100 per year? Not in these parts of the country. More like 10-15 with half being non parishioners.

It would cost your parish 10k. Not an inconsiderable sum, we went through the same calculation a few years back when a new pastor told us no fee. And we are a poor parish, over 95 percent Hispanic, half of those immigrants who are very poor.

The spanish community of my parish is in a similar situation. They have their wedding receptions in their backyards. For spanish weddings, we only ask for a free will donation and don’t bother worrying about it. Every spanish wedding here is either an active parishioner or closely related to one.
In these cases, different cultures are handled differently.

BTW, you brought up the comparison to the collection, not me. To say it is totally different now is to make my point: we don’t charge fees for the Eucharist, confession, I have a hard time understanding why we charge fees for weddings and baptisms.

Its different in that its a stable group people who have a vested interest in their parish giving week after week. Its not a one time event that 1000’s of dollars is being spent on and only half the time they are active parishioners. Its similar in that we need money to be able to run the parish and take money at the time of the sacrament.

 

[tafan]

Your parish is spending 1000s of dollars on a wedding? Why? I don’t think performing weddings materially increases the overall expenses of a parish.

 

[Phemie]

Your parish is spending 1000s of dollars on a wedding? Why? I don’t think performing weddings materially increases the overall expenses of a parish.

I think he’s referring to the couple spending thousands for a wedding, not the parish.

They don’t charge for baptisms or funerals because with those sacraments they are dealing with parishioners who support and have a vested interest in the parish, unlike weddings where the couple are willing to spend thousands, often tens of thousands, and often have no connection to the parish.

 

[tafan]

I think he’s referring to the couple spending thousands for a wedding, not the parish.

They don’t charge for baptisms or funerals because with those sacraments they are dealing with parishioners who support and have a vested interest in the parish, unlike weddings where the couple are willing to spend thousands, often tens of thousands, and often have no connection to the parish.

I was sincerely hoping that was not what he meant.
And I just don’t understand how a couple’s ties to a parish play into this discussion. If a pastor decides a couple can marry at the parish, then so be it. They have enough connection to the parish to get married there. Because they might not come back to mass after the honeymoon it ok to charge for the sacrament?

 

[Phemie]

I was sincerely hoping that was not what he meant.
And I just don’t understand how a couple’s ties to a parish play into this discussion. If a pastor decides a couple can marry at the parish, then so be it. They have enough connection to the parish to get married there. Because they might not come back to mass after the honeymoon it ok to charge for the sacrament?

Hey, you’re preaching to the choir here.

Personally, I think it’s splitting hairs to distinguish between charging for a compulsory preparation and charging for the sacrament. By definition a ‘donation’ is voluntary, when you require a ‘donation’ you’re imposing a fee.

I have to ask my pastor about that. He’s a canon lawyer and I’d love to hear his take on this.

 

[tafan]

Hey, you’re preaching to the choir here.

Personally, I think it’s splitting hairs to distinguish between charging for a compulsory preparation and charging for the sacrament. By definition a ‘donation’ is voluntary, when you require a ‘donation’ you’re imposing a fee.

I have to ask my pastor about that. He’s a canon lawyer and I’d love to hear his take on this.

You are possibly correct that there is little difference between the two. It is why I started out saying a parish should only charge a fee for direct costs if materials for preparation. It is a fine line.

I would like to apologize to NewEnglandPRiest for being short or abrupt in any of my arguments.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And I just don’t understand how a couple’s ties to a parish play into this discussion.

It means that they’ve been contributing to the parish and care about it for a period of time, or they haven’t. There’s such a distinct difference that many pastors refuse to allow any non parishioner weddings in their church.

If a pastor decides a couple can marry at the parish, then so be it. They have enough connection to the parish to get married there. Because they might not come back to mass after the honeymoon it ok to charge for the sacrament?

If there’s not enough support for the parish it closes. Its that simple. Pastors need to be prudent stewards.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think he’s referring to the couple spending thousands for a wedding, not the parish.

Indeed.

They don’t charge for baptisms or funerals because with those sacraments they are dealing with parishioners who support and have a vested interest in the parish, unlike weddings where the couple are willing to spend thousands, often tens of thousands, and often have no connection to the parish.

Actually, every parish in these parts of the USA charges a small fee for funerals. Once again, its waived if there’s any issue of affordability. But, overall, if parishes around these parts stopped charging a “fee” for weddings and funerals there would be a lot of closed parishes.