Money: good, bad, or it depends?

[llowwelll]

I’ve thought a lot about money and how it relates to us as Christians. I think it’s very difficult but possible to be a wealthy Christian and remain faithful to the tenets of Christ (1 Tim 6:17-19, Matthew 6:24-31).

For example, I have a friend who is a very successful mortgage broker. Formerly, he was a full-time Christian minister for six years. He left the ministry because he and his wife were tired of struggling financially. They had lived in a small house with one child and had to rent out a room to make ends meet. That was two-and-a-half years ago. He now earns $60,000-plus per month. He explained that being a minister and selling mortgages are pretty similar in that they are both essentially sales jobs; you are trying to convince people to do something. He owns several houses and buildings. His own house is a million dollar house. He drives a Hummer H2. He frequently takes very nice vacations (every couple of months). Much of his conversation with me and others involve money in one way or another. Believe me, I heard many of his conversations with others because you can’t talk to him for more than about three or four minutes without being interrupted and him taking a call on his Bluetooth headset.

However, he is a very good guy. He is still active in his church and I believe he gives quite a bit to his church. On the other hand, when I was around him, I found myself thinking more and more about money and material things. I wanted those things more and more as well. That bothered me.

I had several conversations with him about having money and being a Christian. We talked about the parable of the the rich young man and the many places in the Bible where it warns against the danger of riches. He had answers for all of them. This link is a pretty good summary of his arguments.

One day, he came over to my house. He pulled up in his H2. My next-door neighbor was outside. My friend and neighbor began talking about cars. The neighbor mentioned that he was looking for a new car and that he liked the H2. My friend began to explain he could pick one up for only about $65,000. My neighbor is also fairly well-off and they both agreed that wasn’t too bad of a price.

Anway, when my friend came inside I began to have a conversation with him again about money. I tried to be very gentle and tactful. I used the H2 as an example. I said it’s possible to buy a perfectly fine new economy car for about $15,000 (Hyundai Elantra for example). You could take the extra $50,000 that you would have spent on a H2 and do a lot of good with it. You could give it to charity or to the church or to whomever. At that, my friend became angry. He wasn’t yelling or shaking, but he told me I had no right to judge and that I had too much pride. That basically ended that. We haven’t talked very much since which is pretty sad to me.

Your thoughts?

 

[jman507]

Money is what money does. Material is not a bad thing, we need it inorder to live. Money just for money, misses the point and that is bad. It is just us who can do good and bad. Things need their proper balance and context.

Although the funny thing from you story, is that quite often what tends to make one angry in another, is a problem that one is struggling with. But what for you to do? I think you made a fair point. Next time you see him, just give him a smile and say hello. Your likely to have your best influence on him, if he sees you as a person he’d like to be like. Usually that tends to be someone with a joyful outlook.

 

[gvogt4]

If you are thinking about money when you are around him, that may speak more to temptations of envy you may be feeling. (I am not saying this with a harsh or judgmental intent.)

Additionally, unless he is clueless (and it doesn’t sound that way), of course he would be upset. It had to be obvious to him that you were trying to point out something in his life that you felt needed to be corrected.

The best thing you can do for your friend is pray (for both of you) and to set a good example.

Disclaimer : (You have to read this part very very fast) The author of this post does not intend to portray that he is the end all of all discussions especially as they relate to financial conditions. Furthermore, the author of this post wishes to publicly state that while he could not come close to affording even a half of a Hummer, he would like to think he would not do so even if he could. Finally, the author does not wish to give the impression that the previous statement in any way convicts, judges, binds, or any other negative words you can think of here the aforementioned Hummer owner nor any other owners of Hummer vehicles nor any other vehicle that may be considered “too much” by any and all parties reading this post.

 

[StCsDavid]

Money is a gift from God. It belongs to Him. He gives some folks more than others. The question is, what do you do with the gift? It’s not the money that is evil, but rather the will in which it used. Consider this passage from Luke.

Luke 12

15] And he said to them, “Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
16] And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully;
17] and he thought to himself, What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' **18**] And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
19] And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’
20] But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’
21] So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
22] And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.
23] For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

 

[llowwelll]

StCsDavid: agreed, money is not the problem; the love of money is.

gvogt4: you’re right, I not only felt temptations to envy but I also felt envy at times. I did not like it. During our conversations, I even told my friend that I felt like I was part of the problem since I was allowing myself to feel envy.

jman: thanks!

All: I guess what I’m asking is: if you’re a Christian who has been blessed (or cursed?) with wealth, how are you obligated to handle it in today’s day and age? How do you apply the Word of God to wealth in the here and now? I used my friend as an example of a real Christian today with a lot of money and what he does with it. I’m not necessarily looking to know if how I handled that particular situation was appropriate although I do appreciate any advice in that regard.

Is it okay to subscribe to the “health and wealth” take on Christianity? Or, are we to model ourselves more closely to Christ’s model? Is it okay as a Christian today to live in luxury homes and drive luxury cars when there is so much need? Another example: Christian evangelist Joel Osteen. Apparently, he lives in a bit of a mansion down in Texas. Is that appropriate?

My instinct is that it is not appropriate.

1 John 3:16-18:
**16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. **

Matthew 25:41-43
**41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ **

We all know that there are hungry, thirsty, lonely, inadequately clothed, and imprisoned people all around us. When there are so many people in all sorts of need how can we justify spending $1 million on a house when less than half of that will buy a very nice house in most parts of this country?. How much good could the half a million dollars do that you didn’t spend on yourself? Some will make the argument that spending money on ourselves generates jobs and thus is a form of charity in itself. Well, the money sent to charity ends up getting spent and generates jobs as well. The difference is that you are ensuring as best as you can that the money goes to a worthwhile cause versus providing part of the Home Depot CEO’s $250 million severance package. How much good could be accomplished if every Christian out there donated at least 10% of their income (tithed) to the Church and it’s causes?

Another point: when we get wrapped up in the trappings of wealth (nice homes, nice cars, nice vacations, etc) it seems to harden the heart and intensify our desire to focus on ourselves vs the world around us. In other words, it seems to breed selfishness. I think this is the idea Paul was getting at in 1 Timothy 6:10:

"For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

I think this is also the idea put forth in Ecclesiastes 5:

10 He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity.
11 When good things increase, those who consume them increase. So what is the advantage to their owners except to look on?
12 The sleep of the working man is pleasant, whether he eats little or much; but the full stomach of the rich man does not allow him to sleep.
13 There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being hoarded by their owner to his hurt.

Thoughts?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

It is easy, and those in authority encourage the error, to confuse ‘Mammon’, which Our Lord excoriated as the antithesis of G_D, and money.
Mammon is not money.
Neither is Mammon the love of money, or greed.
Mammon is something more subtle than that.
Mammon is excoriated in a context which defines it as an entity of the same type as G_D.
Something to be worshipped,
Something to adjust your life aims to.
Something to be taken as a ruling principle.
It goes further than defining ‘honest money’.
It is requiring honesty to money for the sake of money.
Whereas Keynesian ecconomics was prepared to devalue money for the sake of ‘charity’, Smithian ecconomics demands that charity be discarded for the sake of monetary honesty.
Whereas Keynes saw money as a tool, Adam Smith saw money as a ruling master.
The Former had good Christian principle, while the latter, though believing himself an honest Christian, was in fact demanding the worship of Mammon.
In short, Monetarism = Mammon.
Capitalism is a subset of Monetarism.
Capitalism is every bit as evil as communism.

 

[Maratom]

Jesus speaks a lot about money in the Gospels.
The love of money (I believe) is evil if you allow money to use you. A poor person cannot help another poor person. A rich person can.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Although he’s not Catholic, I enjoy a lot of what Dave Ramsey says about wealth. My wife and I are following his plan to stay out of debt; we’re trying now to finish off our emergency fund. We are debt free except the house, and have no plans to incur new loans.

Regarding cars, Ramsey says they’re the worst “investment” you can make because they plummet in value (he jokes that when Chevy uses “Like a Rock” as its positioning statement for its trucks, that’s to show how far down the value has dropped!). He says to buy good used cars on which someone else has already taken the depreciation hit. Most millionaires do because they know a car is not an investment; it’s just a car!

Maybe the OP’s friend has other means of support (his wife works?) or circumstances we don’t know about, but a million-dollar house on a $60K income? A vehicle that cost a year’s salary when new and may only be worth half that now? Sounds like he’s living way beyond his means and, as Ramsey puts it, may be trying to “use money he hasn’t got to impress people he doesn’t like.”

Money is a means to an end. Ramsey says the ultimate goal in getting financial peace is not just to live comfortably, but to give money away (not loan it) to those who need it (perhaps this helps my Keynesian friend?).

Now where’s my copy of Free to Choose?

 

[Maratom]

I haven’t owned a car since 1969. I can remember my insurance was $100 a year, my car payment $36 a month, and gas .24 a gallon.
When i married I used my wife’s car.
I have more money in my pocket now that I don’t own a car, or have charge cards.
I believe Mother Teresa when she said: “There is great happiness in owning nothing”
I buy what I need, not what i want. Now I have money to give to charities, which gives me great joy.

 

[SeekerJen]

I think money is good in the basic sense- we need it to pay for things necessary for our survival, and it makes it easier for us to help others.

When one starts using money to define oneself and one’s worth, then it becomes a problem. I am blessed to not have been raised in a way that would encourage me to use a person’s wealth to define him or her, and am also blessed to be surrounded at most times by like-minded people. However, I occasionally end up a bit out of my comfort zone and am reminded of the way in which much of the rest of the world thinks, and I find it depressing. I met up with an old friend who admitted that she consideres herself in the same “league” as some of her other friends because she has a big house, nice cars, and fancy appliances, and because her husband has a well-paying engineering job, and that apparently there is some competition going on concerning money and things. Normally I don’t care about this; DH and I are in science (which pays enough to live on but not large amounts), most of our friends are in science, and neither of us are from wealthy families. But hearing that…then I start to wonder if I am considered beneath this friend’s league. After verbalizing a bit of this, my friend’s response was, “Well, I have friends on welfare, too”. DH and I are very far from being on welfare, and then I found myself trying to prove that we are not poor; again, not that I should even care, nor is it any of her business. I don’t think I convinced her that we are not a mere step away from government assistance, especially as she has said before that she wouldn’t have the first idea of how to budget such a small amount of money as our annual income (without knowing that the amount she named was indeed our annual income). So I left that meeting feeling rather pathetic, and ashamed at myself for even caring enough to try and prove my “worth” in financial terms.

I guess I’m perplexed: this friend and her other friends are mostly devout Catholics. I’ve always felt somewhat unworthy around them because I wasn’t raised in such a devout home. Now I wonder if they also feel that I am unfit to be in their “league” because of the career/tax bracket issue. I just cannot even relate to this kind of thinking, and I was happier before being exposed to it. I guess by posting here, I’m not any better, because this is gossip. Unfortunately it’s left me very unsettled.

 

[BlestOne]

Money is an object, it doesn’t possess the ability to be good or evil. How one views money can be sinful, but not the money itself. If money controls you instead of being a means to survive and live, then you are placing money above God and that is wrong.

One of my favorite examples is a very dear friend of mine. She and her husband are quite wealthy but you would never know it just looking at them. They don’t wear expensive clothes, they love to garage sale, they don’t act typically rich. They make their son work for spending money and they don’t throw lavish over the top parties like the Enron parties. They do donate alot of money to our parish, and they don’t expect the school to be named after them for it. She does all the hard work on our community’s clothing drive for school and our town’s Angel tree program (Christmas presents for poor kids) She haggles with local merchants to get donations for these people but she is also the first one to politely deny these things to people who think that they are owed these things, but don’t really have a need. Money is not an object of sin for them. On the other hand, you can see examples all around you of folks that have more and just seem to flaunt it. These folks usually have a need or insecurity that they are trying to overcompensate for. They like feeling important or better than others.

One of the things I like most about my gf is that she has common sense. Rather than giving you handouts, she would rather help you to develop the skills to help yourself or a job so you can earn it. I work for her husband, trust me, they don’t pay top dollar either, but they are the first ones to help when you need it most. They were on vacation last week when I broke my leg. When she found out, she called from another state to her handyman to go buy dinner for my family so I didn’t have to try to cook. She also called me and gave me work to do just so I didn’t feel worthless sitting around with my foot in the air.

 

[llowwelll]

Maybe the OP’s friend has other means of support (his wife works?) or circumstances we don’t know about, but a million-dollar house on a $60K income? A vehicle that cost a year’s salary when new and may only be worth half that now? Sounds like he’s living way beyond his means and, as Ramsey puts it, may be trying to “use money he hasn’t got to impress people he doesn’t like.”

Money is a means to an end. Ramsey says the ultimate goal in getting financial peace is not just to live comfortably, but to give money away (not loan it) to those who need it (perhaps this helps my Keynesian friend?).

I just want to correct what might be a misunderstanding on the part of the above poster: that’s $60K per month, not per year. My friend makes at least $60K per month; often significantly more.

I also wanted to comment on Ramsey’s idea that the ultimate goal of financial peace is to give it away. I think this is admirable. However, I think a lot of people rationalize their quest for money by telling themselves that one day they’ll be able to give more away. I know I have used this same logic on myself at times. On the road to making more to give away, however, I think it’s easy to get caught up and overcome by the seduction of money and the world.

Besides, should one of your goals be to “live comfortably” at all when there are so many people out there who live in abject discomfort, loneliness, and spiritual poverty every single day? Furthermore, isn’t living “comfortably” an extremely subjective term? What is “comfortable”? Is it a six-bedroom, 3,500 sq ft house, nice vacations, country club membership, and a Lexus? Can’t the goal of living “comfortably” be stretched to the point where, in actuality, you’re living selfishly?

 

[Cygnus_X1]

I just want to correct what might be a misunderstanding on the part of the above poster: that’s $60K per month, not per year. My friend makes at least $60K per month; often significantly more.

Yep, you did say that, and I glossed over it. Thanks for pointing that out.

I also wanted to comment on Ramsey’s idea that the ultimate goal of financial peace is to give it away. I think this is admirable. However, I think a lot of people rationalize their quest for money by telling themselves that one day they’ll be able to give more away. I know I have used this same logic on myself at times. On the road to making more to give away, however, I think it’s easy to get caught up and overcome by the seduction of money and the world.

Besides, should one of your goals be to “live comfortably” at all when there are so many people out there who live in abject discomfort, loneliness, and spiritual poverty every single day? Furthermore, isn’t living “comfortably” an extremely subjective term? What is “comfortable”? Is it a six-bedroom, 3,500 sq ft house, nice vacations, country club membership, and a Lexus? Can’t the goal of living “comfortably” be stretched to the point where, in actuality, you’re living selfishly?

If you’re LeBron James, this is living comfortably.

Seriously, I don’t begrudge anyone their wealth; I’m not into class envy. I know that in a sense, this person is flaunting his wealth, but still, he may be making charitable contributions that you don’t know about.

Still, I think Jesus put it best when He said, “Where your treasure is, there will be your heart also.” If that’s really all he wants out of life, “he already has his reward.” Some folks need to learn the hard way, and you spoke your part. He knows what you think; anything more will just isolate you two further.

 

[bengal_fan]

… I said it’s possible to buy a perfectly fine new economy car for about $15,000 (Hyundai Elantra for example). You could take the extra $50,000 that you would have spent on a H2 and do a lot of good with it. You could give it to charity or to the church or to whomever. At that, my friend became angry. He wasn’t yelling or shaking, but he told me I had no right to judge and that I had too much pride.

Your thoughts?

you are right, he is wrong. those are my thoughts. it is wrong to waste money on outlandish things. that money could be used for God’s Kingdom. to those given much, much is expected. i wrestle with this daily. i live in wealthy community and my wife and i make decent money, but we choose to live below our means and give more money away. i think we should give more and we are trying to figure how to do that. money is not evil, the love of money (or the love of the things money can buy) is the root of all kinds of evil. you are right to feel the way you do and he has a mistaken theology of money and what God wants for Christians. the health and wealth / name it and claim it theology is popular today but i thank God for the voices against that kind of seductive preaching that tickles our ears.

 

[puzzleannie]

neither, money is an object, a symbol for something else–credit of the country that issues it-- and a means to an end. The ends to which the money is put are good, bad or neutral. The attitudes of those who have money, lack money, seek money, work for money, can be good or bad. One can engage in illegal or immoral acts to get money, or perform worthwhile or morally neutral acts to earn money. The key consideration in assessing the morality of actions in reference to money is attitude. A poor person can have an immoral attitude toward money–greed, envy etc. A rich person can have a moral attitude–generosity, stewardship etc.

 

[Jay2]

neither, money is an object, a symbol for something else–credit of the country that issues it-- and a means to an end.

Then why is a basket shoved in my face every Sunday?.. "If God will provide… "

Walk the Talk. You say “God will provide… (pay for 8 kids, etc.)” but the basket is in my face every week asking for $$$"

Funny double standard… Restrict how I live, and ask for tribute every week.

 

[jman507]

Then why is a basket shoved in my face every Sunday?.. "If God will provide… "

Walk the Talk. You say “God will provide… (pay for 8 kids, etc.)” but the basket is in my face every week asking for $$$"

Funny double standard… Restrict how I live, and ask for tribute every week.

I think you misunderstand her post. Money is just a symbol, which has been put to use as a medium of exchange. It’s far easier to set a price to a standard medium, that to out right barter good and service for good and service.

Sure might provide, or maybe he won’t and you’ll die, well in this temporal world, not eternally. You still have to pretty much work what has been provided to come up with your need. But there is also a problem that you will not be able to be self-sufficient for your whole life, and will need others to help meet your needs. It is not necessarily needed for you to contribute to the church, but it is a good thing to give to others to help them out when they need other’s help themselves.

If one should have 8 kids and is close to not even meeting the needs for all, maybe large and meaning full amounts of money to give, might not be the prudent thing to do. When it comes to hording things, there is a lot more than money you can horde. Perhaps there is time or talent or prayer you can give. I doubt though there would be much time and talent to give either. On the other hand, to do a good job of raising 8 children, I’d think is far more time, talent, and treasure consuming than a lot of other ways of giving back. I say, you know what you can give, but one important thing to do is to connect with God and give it as a prayer to him.

 

[cheddarsox]

I suggest we look at the money issue as the more complex issue of economics. It is not about how much an individual makes and spends. It is a situation we all create as a culture.

Rich people can and do contribute greatly to the economy. They own businesses that provide jobs for others, benefits, services, etc.

Money is never a static thing, or something that is about one person. It is about what we value as a culture. They only get the money because the rest of us are willing to fork it over for something.

If the culture demands fair wages for all, good working conditions, reasonable benefits etc for all workers…then the rich may be a little less rich, but that money will be doing a whole lot of good.

Everything a rich person has/buys is a job for someone else.

Think about the whole economic system, and how we all use it and contribute to it.

Sometimes we complain that movie stars or sports stars make crazy amounts of money…but even the “poor” among us contribute to that, and entire industries are built around it.

No one gets rich alone.

Just some things to think about.

I work for a business that distributes music. I see who is responsible for my job security and my family’s grocerys. I see, in a way I didn’t own up to before, how connected we all are. Some of the groups, artists who’s music I hate…are paying my bills.

 

[Maratom]

I’m sure you know someone who will tell you about the evils of money.
I know half a dozen people who tell me how money can’t buy happiness, but guess what? When the state lottery is offering a huge pot, these same people are first in line to buy a ticket. Makes one wonder.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Lots of the early Italian Christian converts and saints were very wealthy. They inherited vast, vast estates from their families - one at least, and I don’t remember his name, placed his estate in his servants hands to run it while he retired to the ‘wilderness’ to live very simply on a small allowance he drew from the estate every few weeks and which was brought to him by his servant.