Money

[cossack]

Bill O’Reilly recently mentioned that those with money are in a far better position to save themselves and their families in times of crisis. The crisis may be a natural disaster or a loved one requires medical attention. My aunt recently passed away and she was very charitable throughout her life. Unfortunately, we found that after her death she was also quite broke. She would never have paid off the huge Visa bill that was accumulating or the many other expenditures she had made. The family had to chip in for her basic funeral.

A new deacon in our church advised the kids going off to college not to seek out more money. In light of the realities of life on this world where we are all living longer I do not think such advice is very constructive. I have decided to devote a large part of my time to supplement my income through starting my own business. Money can make both my loved ones and my life easier, safer, and better. I think most Catholics who preach against the desire for money should talk against materialism where one seeks to keep buying depreciable assets, i.e. toys like motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.

When I hear of a couple quiting their jobs and going of to Africa or some foreign land to form a mission I now wonder what steps they have taken to pay their retirement. I understand that Christ wants us to give charitably, and I still do drop my envelope in the church basket, but every dime I give is one less I will have for my older years. This fact is irrefutable.

Does anyone else see the disconnect between reality and what many in the Church are recommending?

 

[contemplative]

Isidore said:
In this fleeting life the rich do not have the satisfacttion of permanently enjoying their power, their fame,or their money. Suddenly death carries them off, the abyss swallows them up and they disappear, condemned to eternal torments.

Greed makes the rich haughty. It does not happen because of their riches, but because of their free choice.
Evil does not consist in things, but in the use we make of them.

Those who spend their riches on beneficial objects are making good use of good things. The same good things are being badly used by those who plan to multiply their wealth or who only do good to their neighbors for repoutations sake. By Defensor Grammaticus

 

[Lost_Found]

Hi there Cossack, good to talk with you again.

I agree with part of what you say. Here is a common expression you may have heard:

”Too many people spend money they haven’t earned, to buy things they don’t want, to impress people they don’t like".
And as the previous post stated more eloquently, none of God’s countless gifts are evil, it’s how we use them. Gifts meaning money, power, cleverness, sex and everything else. It goes right back to the serpent in Genesis 3 telling our ancestors " why not use God’s gifts to make yourselves like gods”.

When it comes to giving to God (from his gifts to us) we need to drop the scarcity principle. You will get back a hundredfold because we can’t outdo the Lord in generosity. It’s a moment of faith when we are filling that envelope, you have to believe you will never miss that money. It’s been twenty years since reading Napolean Hill’s “Think and Grow Rich” but if memory serves he advocated tithing.
I know I will always find much better areas to be a tightwad!

 

[cossack]

“When it comes to giving to God (from his gifts to us) we need to drop the scarcity principle.”

I know you are right in theory, but my late aunt’s generosity only contributed to her financial problems. Don’t you think that if one is just barely making their minimum credit card balance they should refrain from tithing? My aunt was a dedicated Catholic and tither, but she passed away with a large debt that will be passed on to the consumers,

Fortunatly, we received good legal advice and refused any part of her will or else the debt would have passed to us. It was a mess, and I just don’t think many Catholics address such practicalities.

“In this fleeting life the rich do not have the satisfaction of permanently enjoying their power, their fame,or their money. Suddenly death carries them off, the abyss swallows them up and they disappear, condemned to eternal torments.”

Again, in this day we are all living longer. If medical science can keep someone in Terry Shivos condition alive someone has to pay for it. In the old days of the saints people died younger and more frequently. Instead of quoting the words of others you should come up with your own practical answers. The points I am bringing up are certainly relevant and real.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

cossack:

I know you are right in theory, but my late aunt’s generosity only contributed to her financial problems.

I don’t know your late aunt, so I will not comment on her but on myself.

Generosity has never contributed to my financial problems. Poor decision making, spending money I don’t have, and unforseen circumstances and poor planning have led to my financial problems.

Putting money in the basket at Church will not put me into debt. Using credit cards and taking out loans will put me into debt. I need to prioritize my finances so that I can be generous with what I have and take care of my responsibilities.

Don’t you think that if one is just barely making their minimum credit card balance they should refrain from tithing? My aunt was a dedicated Catholic and tither, but she passed away with a large debt that will be passed on to the consumers.

In my own situation, there are many things I can refrain from in order to pay off debt.

Tithing (while not required by the Church) is a good practice and reminds us that what we have is not really ours, we are just taking care of it for God. If we do a good job he will more likely give us more responsibilty. If we do poorly we will have to figure out for ourselves how to get back on track.

Like I said, I do not know your aunt or her situation. But it is very likely that she still would have been in financial hardship if she didn’t tithe.

Try to figure out why she was having such difficulty…then use that knowledge to help you in your own life.

Malia

 

[cheddarsox]

I’m in no position to tell anyone what to do with their money. That is between you and the lord, however, there is one thing I know. There is no such thing as financial security.
You can save and be careful and all that good stuff, and lose it all to any number of things. Many good people in my community lost all their savings and retirement due to an investment company going under.

There are NO guarantees in the physical world.

That is all I know.

I keep that in mind when making my decisions.

cheddar

 

[La_Chiara]

cheddarsox:

I’m in no position to tell anyone what to do with their money. That is between you and the lord, however, there is one thing I know. There is no such thing as financial security.
You can save and be careful and all that good stuff, and lose it all to any number of things. Many good people in my community lost all their savings and retirement due to an investment company going under.

There are NO guarantees in the physical world.

That is all I know.

I keep that in mind when making my decisions.

cheddar

Indeed, there are no guarantees in this world. That is why we must trust in God. Keeping the commandments and living a loving, prayerful life gives us the spiritual security to face the challenges of our temporal world with God’s guidance. Peace and blessings.

 

[Prometheum_x]

If you have money and you are in debt, then in a certain sense, that money is already spoken for.

It is one’s Christian obligation to repay his debts. After leaving enough for your own personal needs and the needs of your family (which is up to each family to determine), and tithing, if you feel called to practice that, the money that one earns should go towards repaying those debts.

Unfortunately, American society is a very debt-happy one. People don’t bat an eye at carrying debt and generally don’t take practical steps to avoid getting into debt in the first place. I am not speaking of those who are in debt through no fault of their own – life brings its many surprises, perhaps the loss of a job or a serious illness.
Many people are simply living beyond their means.

 

[Lost_Found]

Hi Cossack,

I couldn’t have put it any better than Feanaro’s Wife.

You say " but every dime I give is one less I will have for my older years. This fact is irrefutable."

I just don’t think you need to look at it that way. Why not instead look at it as an investment in faith. You’re perfectly right in not wanting to be a sucker with your hard earned money. But there are a few small select areas where we need to let our heart have its say.

 

[adara]

cossack:

I understand that Christ wants us to give charitably, and I still do drop my envelope in the church basket, but every dime I give is one less I will have for my older years. This fact is irrefutable.

You’re right, money into the basket means less money for later years on earth. However, that money becomes treasure stored up in heaven, drawing your heart towards eternity (Matthew 6:21) and building a lasting edifice that will withstand the fire of the judgement (I Corinthians 3:10-15). In practical terms on earth, that won’t help much, but in practical terms for eternal life, it’s far better to be a little pinched now. That’s especially true when we remember that our time on this earth is mostly preparation for the afterlife.

 

[vluvski]

I use this philosophy:

Tithe first, but tithe responsibly.

I think many protestant denominations do a better job with this than Catholics. When preparing a budget, they are taught to first set aside what they are able to give to the church, then meet their day to day needs. that is not to say a person making $100/week should say, “Ok, I feel like I’m being a good person if I give $50 each week.” That is irresponsible, unless he or she has some means to live on $50. If you can’t, you can’t, but you should still be making an effort to get yourself back into a situation where you can. We ought not be satisfied with being broke and having to beg; IMO, it is inconsistent with the message of the Gospel.

I heard a great quote from Crown Financial ministries. www.crown.org “God does not want us to be in a position where we cannot be generous to others.”

 

[kellyb32]

vluvski:

I use this philosophy:

Tithe first, but tithe responsibly.

I think many protestant denominations do a better job with this than Catholics. When preparing a budget, they are taught to first set aside what they are able to give to the church, then meet their day to day needs. that is not to say a person making $100/week should say, “Ok, I feel like I’m being a good person if I give $50 each week.” That is irresponsible, unless he or she has some means to live on $50. If you can’t, you can’t, but you should still be making an effort to get yourself back into a situation where you can. We ought not be satisfied with being broke and having to beg; IMO, it is inconsistent with the message of the Gospel.

I heard a great quote from Crown Financial ministries. www.crown.org “God does not want us to be in a position where we cannot be generous to others.”

When we were in the protestant churches we were ALWAYS taught that the tithe is 10% of your income, some said gross, some said net. Either way if you didn’t tithe the 10% you were robbing God (Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.).

The reasoning was that we needed faith to “open the windows of heaven and have blessings poured out.” (Mal 3:10). By giving to God, he’d give in return above what we could imagine (Luke 6:38) This was taught as “spirtual law”.

Well, it didn’t work for us. We faithfully gave our 10% first to the church and then tried to pay our bills, trusting for the Lord to provide what we were short for the month. The pastors, elders, whoever we spoke to about us drowning in bills, said that God answers in HIS time, not ours, keep the faith… Well we ended up getting evicted from our apartment, went bankrupt, and became very bitter with this teaching. When we asked our pastor what we did wrong (we were young in the “faith”) his answer was the typical one we ended up hearing throughout the remainder of our time in the fundie churches we attended, “Maybe God is testing your faith because you didn’t have enough.” or “You need your faith strengthened that’s why you’re being tried.”

It was only 3 years later that I began studying the Catholic faith and asking tons of questions, praying for guidance and all the while “tempting” God by not paying the full tithe that we should have paid, according to the pastor.

In a nutshell, we finally felt okay to offer time, food, ourselves, etc, in the place of money for our tithes. Tithing was just one of many examples that I could give as a stepping stone towards the RCC for us.

One of the last churches we were at began asking for members income tax forms so the pastor could see if the congregation was tithing the way it should. We left before he took over…I’m glad we did. He drives the sheep, he doesn’t lead them. I’m still in contact with some of the members who have stayed, they are so exhausted but they continue on there.

I give what I can in church now, offering help if I can, donating time and even my store discount for religious supplies! Even though we don’t have the money I would like to give, I’m at peace now with what I can do for my God.

God bless!

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

vluvski:

I use this philosophy:

Tithe first, but tithe responsibly.

I think many protestant denominations do a better job with this than Catholics. When preparing a budget, they are taught to first set aside what they are able to give to the church, then meet their day to day needs. that is not to say a person making $100/week should say, “Ok, I feel like I’m being a good person if I give $50 each week.” That is irresponsible, unless he or she has some means to live on $50. If you can’t, you can’t, but you should still be making an effort to get yourself back into a situation where you can. We ought not be satisfied with being broke and having to beg; IMO,** it is inconsistent with the message of the Gospel**.

I heard a great quote from Crown Financial ministries. www.crown.org “God does not want us to be in a position where we cannot be generous to others.”

Although I can see what you are trying to say, be careful with who you call irresponsible.
Some are actually called to leave all their goods, and live in poverty, and this is not irresponsibility, in fact it is generosity.

With that said we are all called to be poor in Spirit, detaching ourselves from riches, but this does not me we have to be literally poor. It means we have to be detached of riches and wordly things.

 

[vluvski]

vluvski:

I use this philosophy:

Tithe first, but tithe responsibly.

I think many protestant denominations do a better job with this than Catholics. When preparing a budget, they are taught to first set aside what they are able to give to the church, then meet their day to day needs. that is not to say a person making $100/week should say, “Ok, I feel like I’m being a good person if I give $50 each week.” That is irresponsible, unless he or she has some means to live on $50. If you can’t, you can’t, but you should still be making an effort to get yourself back into a situation where you can. We ought not be satisfied with being broke and having to beg; IMO, it is inconsistent with the message of the Gospel.

thanks for pointing that out, lifeisbeautiful.
If a person has a genuine vocation for a life of poverty, then I assume he or she has some means (God) of living on $50 or even nothing a week.

It is important that whatever our situation, we remain joyful in life. If being poor causes you to sin (illicit monetary aquisitions, general contempt for life, etc…), then you need to do something to earn money legitimately. This could be a sign that you are not called to live in poverty, or at least do not understand your vocation to it.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

vluvski:

I use this philosophy:

Tithe first, but tithe responsibly.

I think many protestant denominations do a better job with this than Catholics. When preparing a budget, they are taught to first set aside what they are able to give to the church, then meet their day to day needs. that is not to say a person making $100/week should say, “Ok, I feel like I’m being a good person if I give $50 each week.” That is irresponsible, unless he or she has some means to live on $50. If you can’t, you can’t, but you should still be making an effort to get yourself back into a situation where you can. ** We ought not be satisfied with being broke and having to beg; IMO, it is inconsistent with the message of the Gospel**.

I heard a great quote from Crown Financial ministries. www.crown.org “God does not want us to be in a position where we cannot be generous to others.”

Ok, maybe I should have highlighted that part too. Being broke and having to beg is actually what a lot of Saints had to do. They depended on whatever charity they could receive, day after day, even if the had originally come from wealthy backgrounds.

Their family would call them everything from irresponsible to crazy, but still they did it knowing it was God’s will.

I just wanted to point it out because it still happens nowadays, that people are critized for giving up their money and living trusting that God will provide, and He does. I just get a little antsy when I see the label irresponsible for things I know could actually be the opposite. (Kinda like the whole discussion on NFP).

Plus, generosity comes in many shapes and forms, not necessarily $$.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

But with that said, I agree with your points, vluvski, on finding legitimate ways to make money if your vocation doesn’t call for poverty, rather than sitting with your arms crossed, being lazy and bumming off others. I just wanted to point out that it depends on each case so we have to be careful with what we say.

 

[adara]

Ah, I didn’t realize some here were speaking of “tithing” in the 10% sense. I’ve always been taught that tithing was an Old Covenant thing, part of the Law and not binding on those of us under the New Covenant (especially as the word “tithe” appears fewer than 10 times in the New Testament, and then nearly always when speaking of the Pharisees or of Jewish priests). We are still supposed to give, but only as much as we can without begrudging it (2 Cor. 9:7). And certainly it’s important to balance caring for oneself and one’s family with charitable giving.

I question our culture’s emphasis on retirement, though. It would be nice to someday not have to work anymore, and I’m saving for that goal, but it’s really a very recent development in history that most people had the money left over to achieve “financial independence.” In the end, if I can save enough to cover the inevitable rainy days and to continue to meet my and my family’s needs throughout my life while still being able to be generous with my resources, I will be content (even if it means I have to continue working to supplement my savings) and I will consider myself to have been a responsible steward.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

We do not have any debt other than our mortgage and a 2 yr van loan. This is not due to setting money aside for retirement, it is due to not spending money that we do not have in the hope/plan that it will appear in the future.

I firmly believe that the number of people who will actually see retirement before death is actually very small. It’s a fantasy and not a reachable reality for most in our society.

We have decided to spend what money and time we have to the things that matter to us most. Our family and our church. I suppose my dh could ruin his health working a 2nd job (which in dire straits he has done w/o complaint!) or I could go on welfare, work for pennies and put the dc in daycare. However, we do not feel that would be a wise way to invest in our futures. We prefer to that I stay home working on helping our children grow into good men and women one day. (Men and women who we hope would not turn their elderly parents out into the streets!) We prefer that we grow in our marriage too. We are not one of those couples that think distance makes the heart grow fonder. In our expereinece, it just makes both lonely and resentfull.

Yes, some people may live longer. But many won’t and being alive certainly doesn’t mean you’re healthy enough to do anything but wait for death either. My parents saved every dime they had for an early retirement. My mother got cancer a week before dad was supposed to retire and died less than 7 months later. She never saw the house he built for her. That’s not what I want for my marriage or my kids. There was nothing responsible in it, just utter loss and nothing but memories of saving money for something that never came. Irony of irony, my dad eventually lost that house and almost all his money in medical treatments (and that’s after insurance!). My dh and I had to pay for the funeral.

Just another perspective here…

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

lifeisbeautiful:

Plus, generosity comes in many shapes and forms, not necessarily $$.

Some of the most generous “gifts” I’ve ever given or received took time and energy. An actual physical helping hand can be an amazingly powerfull thing.

 

[vluvski]

lifeisbeautiful:

But with that said, I agree with your points, vluvski, on finding legitimate ways to make money if your vocation doesn’t call for poverty, rather than sitting with your arms crossed, being lazy and bumming off others. I just wanted to point out that it depends on each case so we have to be careful with what we say.

Too true. Thanks for the correction.