Money

[cossack]

Mschoir01

"Wrong. O’Reilly is in a dream world here. Anyone who has been through our illustrious system of higher education has had to find a way to pay for it. Scholarships exist, but countless? No. Free education? Through high school, baby, that’s all she wrote. If you think higher education is free, then please PM me. I have some land to sell you in Louisiana. "

I did not say it is easy to get the free education, but I knew many students in high school who were mature enough to know their importance and they received the necessary funds. I went the student loan route and while it was tough to pay it off I managed to do it. You sound like the typical “give me a hand-out” type that is so prevalent in New Orleans. You think that if it is not automatic and not easy it must be impossible. You have a lot to learn.

"Immigrants come in all varieties and not all are living the American dream. For many, the work is grinding, monotonous, and poorly paid. "

See above. Hello….life aint easy.

“Your Aunt was probably seduced by those aggressive Credit card companies. They prey on populations least likely to have the tools to use credit wisely.”

You MUST be a democrat with your victim mentality. Don’t you see how your approach in this post has been consistently negative almost to the point of laziness?

“Also, I think Bill O’Reilly is an arrogant clown.”

That doesn’t surprise me. O’Reilly is talking about SELF RESPONSIBILITY and that does not appear to be in your vocabulary.

Jman507

“Which I think is the point that Cossack has when he says the Deacon shouldn’t be preaching against money, but against the materialism.”

Exactly, and well said.

“Auntie’s estate gets settled by paying her just debts first, then the leftovers divided if there are any.”

There would not have been anything left. We would have gone through the trouble and time of selling her home and we would still have been in the hole.

“Bill O’Reilly spouts off to make people watch him. Period. And it works. He might move to the left, right or sideways on an issue, but people are generally drawn in to watch. He is certainly not a financial expert. He is an editorialist, an opinion giver. A person is free to agree or disagree with him.”

Yep, and on this I agree with him 100%.

“So, before you stop contributing in the basket, and start counting the squares of toilet paper to ensure your retirement fund- give Huberto a good read.”

I made a fine point of saying that one should continue to contribute, however when you are in need of charity yourself it does not make any sense to give generously as if nothing is wrong.

CONTINUED

 

[cossack]

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

"Your ignorance on the working poor is really showing. At the very least, you have no idea how bad off a person can be with a roof over their head. And once you start using those “saftey nets” - they quickly become snares to slowly drown in. I prefer to not go that route - it is a very well known dead end."

Read my above comments about self-reliance. St. Paul continued to be a tent maker and he said that one should not eat if he did not pay his own way. I have already written that in this country education is free and one can always seek scholarships and loans. IT IS UP TO YOU to show an employer that you are worth a high wage. Or IT IS UP TO YOU to start your own business with a product or service that is in demand.

I have summarized my contentions at the end of this post, but most readers are ignoring the facts that I have already mentioned. When a secularist sees a person concerned about his money he may respond by saying "live for today and enjoy your money now. " A naïve Catholic may say “money is of the world, trust In God for all things, do not think about finances.” It takes a LARGE amount of money to live on when you retire. We are all living longer and companies are cutting back on retirement packages and health insurance. It is up to YOU to take care of your family and yourself so that you can cover things like co-pays. While it is true that some people will inevitably be wiped out by financial disasters like cancer one should be in a position to handle dental surgery, car repairs, etc. I think that the customary 10% tithe may not be realistic for many people.

My philosophy can be summed up as follows. For a while I noticed that one of the writers of my Church bulletin made some negative comments about war and weapons in a way that made me think he is a pacifist. I entered into a long e-mail dialog with him and he finally admitted that he was indeed a pacifist. A main belief among pacifists is that violence does not accomplish anything. Their beliefs make me angry for two reasons. First they are in effect saying that the deaths of thousands of warriors in this country ever since the Revolutionary War was for nothing. That is bull poop. Secondly, they get to stay in this country and reap the benefits of freedom while still criticizing the military methods that preserves their way of life.

It is the same way with this money issue. Pious and or poor people complain that people like me only think about money and yet when they need a financial safety net to catch them they sure don’t mind tapping into tax dollars for welfare and or food stamps. Where do they think that money came from? The truth is that about 10% of the taxpayers pay about 80% of the taxes. Liberal democrats love to knock the rich but it is our capitalistic system of business that has vastly contributed to the high quality of life we enjoy in the United States. Again, it irritates me that those benefiting from the system are the first to throw stones at the same institution.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

cossack:

Read my above comments about self-reliance.
Are you even reading my posts?! I AM self-reliant! Why do you keep writing that? You were the one to write about using government aid. I’m telling you it’s not about how easy or hard it is to get it - I’m telling you that path is a black hole that sucks people in and never lets them out. I’m against that if at all possible. If someone does truely need it, I think it IS the responsiblity of family and church to step up to the plate and help. Helping doesn’t mean supporting them 100%, it means helping.

When a secularist sees a person concerned about his money he may respond by saying “live for today and enjoy your money now”
I think if you can set aside money for tomorrow’s needs without neglicting your obligations of today - go for it.

A naïve Catholic may say “money is of the world, trust In God for all things, do not think about finances.”
I think we should do the best we can to live below (or at the least within) our means. After we have truely done that - there’s not anything else we can do, but accept God’s will and keep working to do better.

It takes a LARGE amount of money to live on when you retire. We are all living longer and companies are cutting back on retirement packages and health insurance.
So don’t retire. Keep working. It’s good for your finances and your health. And, no, we are not all living longer.

It is up to YOU to take care of your family and yourself so that you can cover things like co-pays. …one should be in a position to handle dental surgery, car repairs, etc. I think that the customary 10% tithe may not be realistic for many people.

What have I written to suggest we are not doing that? Of course, everyone should work hard and smart to provide for their families. Some do have enough to cover an occassional expense, like car repairs. Problem is, these things don’t happen based on whether you’ve already had to repair your car and haven’t built the account back up yet when your ds falls out of a tree and needs dental surgery the next day. I don’t know of any parish in my area that even mentions that 10% . Every parish I’ve ever been in made it very clear everyone should give as they can.

Most people don’t start out needing help with everything all the time. They just need a little help to get them through a rough spot. When no one helps, things start to built up and get worse until you have a really hard situation taking years to work out of.

It is the same way with this money issue. Pious and or poor people complain that people like me only think about money

That could be more because it is the ONLY thing you have mentioned about the death of a family member. I don’t find fault with you for wanting a nest egg. It does bother me to see you seem to have such hostility toward the expense of your aunt’s funeral, especially as it wasn’t even your money - it was your mother’s to spend as she wanted. It’s such a sad thing and the last thing your mother will ever do for her sister. Can you not see a way in your heart to see it as a last bit of generosity to her rather than money wasted?

and yet when they need a financial safety net to catch them they sure don’t mind tapping into tax dollars for welfare and or food stamps. Where do they think that money came from?

**Why, I do believe it came from all taxpayers - such as them, me, & you. Contrary to what you seem to think, taxpayer funds are not your personal bank account. You use taxpayer funds everyday and you can bet you’ll use them to some degree when you retire. **

The truth is that about 10% of the taxpayers pay about 80% of the taxes.
**That does make sense as they also control 90% of the money in the country. Those who have more, should pay more. Isn’t that the basis for your complaint about church tithing with your aunt? That those who can pay more should and those who can’t shouldn’t? **

Again, it irritates me that those benefiting from the system are the first to throw stones at the same institution.

Define “benefit” please. We all benefit to some degree from “the system”. I pay property tax for a school system my kids are never going to step a foot in. I pay for roads I may never drive on. Pell grants for college are federal/state funded whether you or your kid qualifies or not. I pay social security for a generation that complains constantly about not being able to retire comfortably at 65 like they wanted - while I doubt I will ever see any retirement at all.

 

[mschoir01]

cossack:

Mschoir01

"Wrong. O’Reilly is in a dream world here. Anyone who has been through our illustrious system of higher education has had to find a way to pay for it. Scholarships exist, but countless? No. Free education? Through high school, baby, that’s all she wrote. If you think higher education is free, then please PM me. I have some land to sell you in Louisiana. "

I did not say it is easy to get the free education, No. You said that Bill O’Reilly said that education in this country is free.but I knew many students in high school who were mature enough to know their importance and they received the necessary funds. I went the student loan route and while it was tough to pay it off I managed to do it. Funny. My student loans were the lowest interest/lowest payments of any loans I have ever had. Of course, the scholarships and fee waivers were nice as well. You sound like the typical “give me a hand-out” type that is so prevalent in New Orleans. This is presumption about me and the population of New Orleans. You think that if it is not automatic and not easy it must be impossible. You have a lot to learn. This is really presumptious. Hostile, too.

"Immigrants come in all varieties and not all are living the American dream. For many, the work is grinding, monotonous, and poorly paid. "

See above. Hello….life aint easy. My point exactly.

“Your Aunt was probably seduced by those aggressive Credit card companies. They prey on populations least likely to have the tools to use credit wisely.”

You MUST be a democrat with your victim mentality. Presumption. Does blaming the victim make one a republican? Are predatory marketers without responsibility for the misery they cause? Don’t you see how your approach in this post has been consistently negative almost to the point of laziness? ??? Negative? Lazy? Are personal attacks effective? I don’t think so. They can continue forever and solve nothing. Let us leave the muck and talk about the issue. Also, I am neither.

“Also, I think Bill O’Reilly is an arrogant clown.”

That doesn’t surprise me. O’Reilly is talking about SELF RESPONSIBILITY and that does not appear to be in your vocabulary. Presumption yet again. You have no information about who I am, or what my educational level, economic position or political leanings are. But what the heck: here is a quick opinion: as it happens, personal responsibility is not incompatible with generosity and charity.

If you have all the treasures in the world, without love, you have nothing. What does it profit a man to sell his soul for the world? No man can serve two masters…the list goes on.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

IF a person dies, and IF after the executor pays all just debts, IF there is nothing left, then there is nothing left. It is NEVER the responsibility of the executor nor heirs to have to pay out of their own pocket. Maybe you worded it wrong, but that’s the way it came off.

WHERE did you ever indicate that only those in need of charity should shun the charitable contribution? I was under the impression you were in a panic regarding your own retirement.

Look, it seems you just want to rant. It seems as if unless somebody agrees with you, they are wrong in your eyes.

 

[cossack]

**“Are you even reading my posts?! I AM self-reliant! Why do you keep writing that?”

When you write things like the following:

I firmly believe that the number of people who will actually see retirement before death is actually very small. It’s a fantasy and not a reachable reality for most in our society.

Through out your writings you manifest a sense of financial hopelessness. You seem to be of the opinion that since you are cursed to be a “working poor person” you may as well spend your free dollars on the church. Why can’t you go to night school to get a better job or start your own business? Re-read your earlier posts and see if they are projecting optimisim.

"I think we should do the best we can to live below (or at the least within) our means."

Yep, the book I recommend to everyone is The Millionaire Next Door. Most wealthy people live BELOW their means so they can let their money work for them.

"So don’t retire. Keep working. It’s good for your finances and your health. And, no, we are not all living longer. "

It deepness on what your job requires. This may not be possible for everyone as they are physically no longer able to work. Besides, I have a sincere interest in traveling when my work days are over.

"What have I written to suggest we are not doing that? Of course, everyone should work hard and smart to provide for their families. "

I have no idea if you are or are not. I am merely pointing out that mathematically it takes far more savings than most people think to generate the income they need.

**"That does make sense as they also control 90% of the money in the country. Those who have more, should pay more. **

This is by far the most illogical comment in this thread. WHY is it that those who have more should pay more in taxes? Who says so? Why do liberals want to penalize hard work and ambition? Most wealthy people got that way by risking their capital and investing their time sweat and tears in a business. Let me understand this; you see no problem at all that 10 % of the people pay 80 % of the taxes? That money is theirs. They earned it and they should keep it. That is why I favor something like Steve Forbes’s flat tax system. Also, where did you get that 90% figure?

"Define “benefit” please. "

In the context I originally wrote this I meant the benefit we all receive form the capitalistic system that is the basis for our economy in the United States. It is big business, NOT the government that gives us a better quality of life in this country. Compare and contrast to a socialistic or communistic country.

Continued
**

 

[cossack]

"I did not say it is easy to get the free education, No. You said that Bill O’Reilly said that education in this country is free.but I knew many students in high school who were mature enough to know their importance and they received the necessary funds. I went the student loan route and while it was tough to pay it off I managed to do it. Funny. My student loans were the lowest interest/lowest payments of any loans I have ever had. Of course, the scholarships and fee waivers were nice as well. You sound like the typical “give me a hand-out” type that is so prevalent in New Orleans. This is presumption about me and the population of New Orleans. You think that if it is not automatic and not easy it must be impossible. You have a lot to learn. This is really presumptious. Hostile, too. "

I read you comments above twice but I fail to see your point. I was referencing the fact that every opportunity I listed you took the other side and wrote how hopeless it all is. O’Reilly and I said that in this country education and advancement is there for those who seek it.

"Are predatory marketers without responsibility for the misery they cause? "

LOL yeah your right lets sue Burger King for making me fat because they “made” me buy their juicy burger on their commercials. Lets sue the Cruise Ship companies for “making” me spend money on vacation to exotic places. Lets sue the shopkeepers for “making” those poor people in New Orleans loot because they must have that big screen TV. Discipline and self-responsibility be dammed. I WANT TO SUE SOMEONE!!! After all its not my fault.

"That doesn’t surprise me. O’Reilly is talking about SELF RESPONSIBILITY and that does not appear to be in your vocabulary. Presumption yet again. You have no information about who I am, or what my educational level, economic position or political leanings are. But what the heck: here is a quick opinion: as it happens, personal responsibility is not incompatible with generosity and charity. "

I have nothing to go on but your post and your writing does indeed give me enough to form and educated opinon. Re-read you postings and you will see that you consistently took the role as the victim.

"If you have all the treasures in the world, without love, you have nothing. What does it profit a man to sell his soul for the world? No man can serve two masters…the list goes on. "

The problem with using quotes in a debate is that they are rarely specific enough to support wither side. Do you contend that I would disagree with any of the above? I do not. However, merely because you quoted them does not mean that they support anything you have said either.

The best summation of my argument is the last paragraph in my prior post:

Pious and or poor people complain that people like me only think about money and yet when they need a financial safety net to catch them they sure don’t mind tapping into tax dollars for welfare and or food stamps. Where do they think that money came from? The truth is that about 10% of the taxpayers pay about 80% of the taxes. Liberal democrats love to knock the rich but it is our capitalistic system of business that has vastly contributed to the high quality of life we enjoy in the United States. Again, it irritates me that those benefiting from the system are the first to throw stones at the same institution.

I think that most people do not have a clue as to how much money it takes to provide for retirement. I think we all agree that those who spend their funds on materialistic pursuits are wasting cash. However, I have taken it a step further and said that for many (not all) the typical 10% tithe may be too much. As I have said, when people hear of someone selling off their property and going to Africa to do charitable work many will exclaim how wonderful this is. I, on the other hand, wonder who is going to support them when they are 70.

 

[spacecadet]

When I hear of a couple quiting their jobs and going of to Africa or some foreign land to form a mission I now wonder what steps they have taken to pay their retirement. I

who says they will retire? i know several people in their late 70’s that still work and they seem to be in far better health than those that retire. mabye they don’t want to retire. i don’t plan on retiring. in fact after my kids are grown that is when i will be renewing my career

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Optimism?? I never tried to post optimism or hopelessness either. Nor have I called myself cursed. What I AM[/B] is realistic and honest. (I know… shockingly politically incorrect!) I have a certain amount of money left after meeting our few needs, admittedly a small amount of money. Still I believe that money makes a difference if I use it on what is most important. What is most important is my family and my church. Oh, and I will have a nice useless BA in 18 months. Why is it useless and why will I still get it? Because I have children who need a f/t parent more than they need a mom with a retirement plan. And because if anything should ever happen to my dh, I hope it will give me a slight cushion. (Although, to be honest - college degrees are a dime a dozen these days and don’t go anywhere near guaranteeing a well paying job.)

"So don’t retire. Keep working. It’s good for your finances and your health. And, no, we are not all living longer. "

It deepness on what your job requires. This may not be possible for everyone as they are physically no longer able to work. Besides, I have a sincere interest in traveling when my work days are over.

**That’s your choice and your problem then. Why do you insist on making it a social issue that everyone retire like you? **

This is by far the most illogical comment in this thread. WHY is it that those who have more should pay more in taxes? Who says so? Why do liberals want to penalize hard work and ambition? Most wealthy people got that way by risking their capital and investing their time sweat and tears in a business. Let me understand this; you see no problem at all that 10 % of the people pay 80 % of the taxes? That money is theirs. They earned it and they should keep it.

**WAIT! Answer my questions first please! **

I wrote previously: Isn’t that the basis for your complaint about church tithing with your aunt? That those who can pay more should and those who can’t shouldn’t?

Why does it apply to generousity and not taxes? Taxes hurt middle class and lower classes MUCH more than those with more money for the very reason that they have less money to spare for the taxes. My money is mine too! Let’s all just not pay taxes! No gas tax, no toll roads, no sales tax, no tax on your tags… I don’t think there’s a bathroom tax yet, but give the rich guys in Washington time and I’m sure they’ll find a way.

"Define “benefit” please. "

In the context I originally wrote this I meant the benefit we all receive form the capitalistic system that is the basis for our economy in the United States.

The basis for our economy in this country is hard working lower and middle class people. The basis of this country, period, is the fact that it is a representive democracy - which means it isn’t and shouldn’t just be the rich fat cats that have a say in how OUR taxes are spent.

It is big business, NOT the government that gives us a better quality of life in this country.

What?! That’s just… laughable. Big business couldn’t care less about the quality of life for the average american. Big business cares about making big profits. And if they can pay someone in India or South America a dime and hour and no health - they do it in a N.Y. minute and don’t look back at the pensions they cancel here. So much for retirement plans.

---

Besides that, the topic isn’t big business or corporations. The topic was YOU and other INDIVIDUALS use of their personal finances for generosity and/or retirement. Come on here! Pick a side would you? Are you for welfare, but not social security to aid retirement? Are you for the poor paying less than the rich - or does that only apply to Church giving not government? Are you for government aid if it’s education, but not if it’s food/shelter?

---

YOU use government benefits every single day, some of which I may never use either by choice or not qualifying. Same goes for me and any other person living in this country.

 

[mschoir01]

"I did not say it is easy to get the free education, No. You said that Bill O’Reilly said that education in this country is free.but I knew many students in high school who were mature enough to know their importance and they received the necessary funds. I went the student loan route and while it was tough to pay it off I managed to do it. Funny. My student loans were the lowest interest/lowest payments of any loans I have ever had. Of course, the scholarships and fee waivers were nice as well. You sound like the typical “give me a hand-out” type that is so prevalent in New Orleans. This is presumption about me and the population of New Orleans. You think that if it is not automatic and not easy it must be impossible. You have a lot to learn. This is really presumptious. Hostile, too. "

I read you comments above twice but I fail to see your point. I was referencing the fact that every opportunity I listed you took the other side and wrote how hopeless it all is. O’Reilly and I said that in this country education and advancement is there for those who seek it. God bless you, Cossack! The point is that I am trying to reach out to you. From similar experience, different opinions can emerge. And, it seems to me that you take great latitude in judging others.

"Are predatory marketers without responsibility for the misery they cause? "

LOL yeah your right lets sue Burger King for making me fat because they “made” me buy their juicy burger on their commercials. Lets sue the Cruise Ship companies for “making” me spend money on vacation to exotic places. Lets sue the shopkeepers for “making” those poor people in New Orleans loot because they must have that big screen TV. Discipline and self-responsibility be dammed. I WANT TO SUE SOMEONE!!! After all its not my fault. Now, Cossack, I didn’t use the S word. Not one time. The legal lottery is another thread altogether! This is where you presume again. Now if you are ready to pick up the slack for those people who for whatever reason find themselves in the credit card trap (as a student of economics, you know that’s how it goes) that’s lovely. I think that predatory marketers should reap what they sow. Just like the consumers. Call it corporate responsibility to the rest of society. You have taken a few hours of economics, so how about some sociology. Study up on poverty. The breakdown of societal values is not a surprise in a system that does not address poverty.

"That doesn’t surprise me. O’Reilly is talking about SELF RESPONSIBILITY and that does not appear to be in your vocabulary. Presumption yet again. You have no information about who I am, or what my educational level, economic position or political leanings are. But what the heck: here is a quick opinion: as it happens, personal responsibility is not incompatible with generosity and charity. "

 

[mschoir01]

I have nothing to go on but your post and your writing does indeed give me enough to form and educated opinon. Re-read you postings and you will see that you consistently took the role as the victim. Well, maybe an opinion, but presumption may not be the word that will reach you. How about Assumption? Do you get it now? I would like to point out that you used the word victim. I have been using the word responsibility.

"If you have all the treasures in the world, without love, you have nothing. What does it profit a man to sell his soul for the world? No man can serve two masters…the list goes on. "

The problem with using quotes in a debate is that they are rarely specific enough to support wither side. Do you contend that I would disagree with any of the above? I do not. However, merely because you quoted them does not mean that they support anything you have said either. We are both talking about personal responsibility. WWJD?

The best summation of my argument is the last paragraph in my prior post:

Pious and or poor people complain that people like me only think about money and yet when they need a financial safety net to catch them they sure don’t mind tapping into tax dollars for welfare and or food stamps. Where do they think that money came from? The truth is that about 10% of the taxpayers pay about 80% of the taxes. Again, you say this like it’s a bad thing. It is only right, although I think your numbers are a bit off. Liberal democrats love to knock the rich but it is our capitalistic system of business that has vastly contributed to the high quality of life we enjoy in the United States. You are so given to broadsides! What I am trying to get across is that personal responsibility goes farther than my front door. Now back to that education thing. As a student of economics, you know that here in the good old US of A we have a great standard of living and for many that translates into a good quality of life. Free market economies can do that. We are blessed to live in one. But do not forget the lessons of the past. Capitalism is not perfect, specifically the rich tend to get richer and the poor tend to get poorer. When the wealth of a nation gets concentrated into too few hands, well, we have to make changes (Teddy Roosevelt - Robber Barons - Trust busting, you remember from history class). Other countries who manage to address this issue have a higher quality of life than here in this country. Again, it irritates me that those benefiting from the system are the first to throw stones at the same institution. We live in a great country. One that consitutinally guarantees any one of us the right to free speech. That makes this chat board possible. Oh, and don’t let’s forget that providing for the general welfare is also in the constitution. How the country chooses to do that is what we are discussing. I am grateful that we have these freedoms. Every time I see a soldier, I thank them for choosing to serve their country. I recommend that everyone take the time to do so.

I think that most people do not have a clue as to how much money it takes to provide for retirement. Presump…wait! Assumption again, Cossack. I think we all agree that those who spend their funds on materialistic pursuits are wasting cash. However, I have taken it a step further and said that for many (not all) the typical 10% tithe may be too much. I think you would be surprised at how financially savvy tithers can be. If they are able to pull out 10% for God’s purposes, imagine what they can do with that remaining 90%. As I have said, when people hear of someone selling off their property and going to Africa to do charitable work many will exclaim how wonderful this is. I, on the other hand, wonder who is going to support them when they are 70. I can tell you who should support them. You and me. It’s the right thing to do. I will do so happily. I guess we’ll have to tax the rest.

 

[cossack]

“who says they will retire? i know several people in their late 70’s that still work and they seem to be in far better health than those that retire. mabye they don’t want to retire. i don’t plan on retiring. in fact after my kids are grown that is when i will be renewing my career”

I am guessing you are fairly young. As I am on the down side toward 50 I see how things can go wrong. When medical problems arise you incur these terrible things called co-pays. Believe me, as you get older things will go wrong. Not everyone is willing or able to work all their lives. Regardless, it is foolhardy to not have a financial contingency plan.

**"That’s your choice and your problem then. Why do you insist on making it a social issue that everyone retire like you? "

**My choice? My problem? Who would choose to not be able to be mobile or require expensive medication? As I said above, it is foolhardy to not have a financial contingency plan. If one does not amass a significant sum of money now there may not be any possibility to do so later. Please promise me that as you blissfully work till your 80 you won’t take my tax dollars for your needs.

"I wrote previously: Isn’t that the basis for your complaint about church tithing with your aunt? That those who can pay more should and those who can’t shouldn’t? "

Those who can pay more may do so at their own discretion, but it is foolish for poor people to tithe when they are placing themselves in a position to be charity recipients. Now please tell me why you think the government should penalize wealthy people for their ambition. Keep in mind that for every dollar the government takes in it spends three.

**“Why does it apply to generousity and not taxes?”

Simple, taxes are mandatory and charitable giving is discretionary.

“Taxes hurt middle class and lower classes MUCH more than those with more money for the very reason that they have less money to spare for the taxes.”

This is a popular myth. As a CPA I can tell you that the rich are hit with a terribly complicated thing called the Alternative Minimum Tax. (AMT). The AMT takes away certain deductions that you routinely take and then it charges a higher rate. The whole system is a mess and if you are really interested in applying Christian principles you would stop looking at it as a rich vs. middle class thing but rather consider what is fair. This is not a financial forum, but I will say that I favor Forbes’s flat tax or The Fair Tax Plan.

**"The basis for our economy in this country is hard working lower and middle class people. "

**You are comparing apples to oranges. Lower and middle class people are the workers in a capitalist system. Middle class and poor people have never hired anyone. It is the hard working entrepreneur who risked his capital and formed the company that provides the means for others to earn their wage.

Continued

**

 

[cossack]

"The basis of this country, period, is the fact that it is a representive democracy "

Actually it is a constitutionally limited republic.

"which means it isn’t and shouldn’t just be the rich fat cats that have a say in how OUR taxes are spent."

What are you talking about? You are merely regurgitating liberal democrat talking points that are void of fact. Everyone in this country gets one vote regardless of their financial status.

What?! That’s just… laughable. Big business couldn’t care less about the quality of life for the average american. Big business cares about making big profits.

You are right that big business mainly cares about profits and that is exactly what makes the system work. Businesses must compete with other companies for the consumer dollar so prices are set by supply and demand. Those “big profits” make it possible to employ the middle class and pass on a return to shareholders. Why would you have a problem with that? Now I see why your degree is useless; you were never taught the basics of economics.

**“Come on here! Pick a side would you? Are you for welfare, but not social security to aid retirement? Are you for the poor paying less than the rich - or does that only apply to Church giving not government? Are you for government aid if it’s education, but not if it’s food/shelter?”

---

I favor welfare reform. I favor private accounts for social security because it will provide a higher return on my investment, but given a choice I would opt out of the system entirely and invest my own money. I am for fewer taxes for everyone. I think it is foolish for the poor to give to a charity when they are in such dire straits they need financial help themselves. I think many of the poor, and you, are clueless as to what and how much it takes to save for retirement. I think too many people blissfully give away their money in pious ignorance.

****“YOU use government benefits every single day, some of which I may never use either by choice or not qualifying. Same goes for me and any other person living in this country.”

**Ok, what is your point?

“I think that predatory marketers should reap what they sow. Just like the consumers. Call it corporate responsibility to the rest of society. You have taken a few hours of economics, so how about some sociology.”

Define “predatory marketers.” One is free to buy or not buy as one chooses. Market price and terms are set by the rules of supply and demand. All you are doing is uttering liberal knee jerk terminology that is void of accuracy.

"Study up on poverty. The breakdown of societal values is not a surprise in a system that does not address poverty. "

Sure that is what the liberal professors would have you believe. I know that the main problem in the inner city is a lack of moral values. When a kid from ghetto identifies and emulates more with rap artist dripping with bling-bling than with people of good Christian moral values there is bound to be problems. Your soci prof would NEVER say that because it is not PC

 

[mschoir01]

"The basis of this country, period, is the fact that it is a representive democracy "

Actually it is a constitutionally limited republic. With democratically elected representatives…mostly.

---

I favor welfare reform. Got it. I favor private accounts for social security because it will provide a higher return on my investment, but given a choice I would opt out of the system entirely and invest my own money. God bless you, Cossack, but I would prefer that if there came another Black Friday that you would have had the foresight to keep a bit aside. This is the reason we need a social security program. I am for fewer taxes for everyone. I think it is foolish for the poor to give to a charity when they are in such dire straits they need financial help themselves. I think many of the poor, and you, are clueless as to what and how much it takes to save for retirement. I think too many people blissfully give away their money in pious ignorance.

“I think that predatory marketers should reap what they sow. Just like the consumers. Call it corporate responsibility to the rest of society. You have taken a few hours of economics, so how about some sociology.”

Define “predatory marketers.” Pick out any of the companies that show up at college campuses with their fine print. Which company made your Aunt comfortable with charging more than she could hope to repay? I’ll wager your banker is much more careful about who he gives a loan to. One is free to buy or not buy as one chooses. Market price and terms are set by the rules of supply and demand. Old news. We all get it that you took, what 6 hours of economics? All you are doing is uttering liberal knee jerk terminology that is void of accuracy. Cossack, au contraire. Let’s us get beyond that first three hours of macro and micro. In the game of Monopoly, when does the game end? When one player takes everyone’s money. When all wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few, abuses occur with impunity and the economy stagnates. This is not up for debate - it’s history. When Capitalism is left unchecked, the game ends. Free markets are vital to the economy, but some provision must be made for those left on the losing end. Now, in reality, I imagine that most members of a society would accept this fact. In our country, there are programs to address the most dire need. They should remain funded. BTW, Knee jerk is a reaction. It means making a rash judgement and not thinking about what is being posited. As for the accuracy, you are free to explore the available resources. The information is out there.

"Study up on poverty. The breakdown of societal values is not a surprise in a system that does not address poverty. "

Sure that is what the liberal professors would have you believe. I know that the main problem in the inner city is a lack of moral values. When a kid from ghetto identifies and emulates more with rap artist dripping with bling-bling than with people of good Christian moral values there is bound to be problems. Your soci prof would NEVER say that because it is not PC I recommend *Freakonomics *for a very interesting discussion of this issue. Oh, my, I’m afraid you have my professors all wrong too. Do you have a solution to the problem of poverty? I would like to think that you (and here I am presuming that you are a Christian) are as troubled by the plight of the poor as the rest of us and would much rather give your brothers and sisters a hand up.

 

[jman507]

Chastity to sex is as prudence to money.

As for me, I’d say it would be best to best to build up a little wealth for you to realy on for some self-suffeciency. Even build up the ability to survive if things start to go bad. You can use government or big business, but if you rely on them too much you can end up being oppresed by them. After all you can see what was a good thing in Genesis, Joseph bing his family to Egypt, turned bad when the Isrealites where oppressed by the Egyptians.

You can say everyone has one vote, but that isn’t really the whole story. It is only one vote person to elect the representative or for a bill brought up for election. If you are that person elected you get lots of votes for all kinds of issues. You can also get involved in the process.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

"
"which means it isn’t and shouldn’t just be the rich fat cats that have a say in how OUR taxes are spent."

What are you talking about? You are merely regurgitating liberal democrat talking points that are void of fact. Everyone in this country gets one vote regardless of their financial status.

Geez, keep track of your own thread will you? The underlined part means the same thing as what I wrote.

You are right that big business mainly **“only” would be better] **cares about profits and that is exactly what makes the system work. Businesses must compete with other companies for the consumer dollar so prices are set by supply and demand. Those “big profits” make it possible to employ the middle class and pass on a return to shareholders. **[Now who doesn’t know anything about money? Profits are what a company has after expenses - including payroll.] **Why would you have a problem with that? I don’t have a problem with it unless people such as yourself start to worship profit to the point of thinking capitalism is what should be basis of all society decisions. That goes to the point of carelessness.

I think it is foolish for the poor to give to a charity when they are in such dire straits they need financial help themselves. I think many of the poor, and you, are clueless as to what and how much it takes to save for retirement. I think too many people blissfully give away their money in pious ignorance.

I’m not going to retire at all. I DO know the cost and have decied is too much to ask of my family now. As for “pious ignorance,” better to be piously ignorant in Christian generousity than knowingly heartless in christian care for your fellow man. Your right. There is nothing “pious” about your attitude.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

:yup: very true Jman507! I’ll add that prudence does not negate generosity. If anything, one reason to be prudent it to accomodate generosity.

---

jman507:

Chastity to sex is as prudence to money.

As for me, I’d say it would be best to best to build up a little wealth for you to realy on for some self-suffeciency. Even build up the ability to survive if things start to go bad. You can use government or big business, but if you rely on them too much you can end up being oppresed by them. After all you can see what was a good thing in Genesis, Joseph bing his family to Egypt, turned bad when the Isrealites where oppressed by the Egyptians.

You can say everyone has one vote, but that isn’t really the whole story. It is only one vote person to elect the representative or for a bill brought up for election. If you are that person elected you get lots of votes for all kinds of issues. You can also get involved in the process.

 

[cossack]

"God bless you, Cossack, but I would prefer that if there came another Black Friday that you would have had the foresight to keep a bit aside. This is the reason we need a social security program. "

These so called “black” days are not all that bad. The Dow gained back most of that days loss fairly quickly. As you approach retirement you simply put a larger and larger share of your investments into cash and other conservative investments. We do not need the government sucking my money away from my paycheck to do that.

"Define “predatory marketers.” Pick out any of the companies that show up at college campuses with their fine print. Which company made your Aunt comfortable with charging more than she could hope to repay? I’ll wager your banker is much more careful about who he gives a loan to. "

The above is NOT a definition. You can not define a predatory company because they only exist in the minds of liberal socialistic anti-capitalist. The credit card companies do not hold a gun to head of college students or my aunt. Credit cards are NOT a necessity. If you know that you are undisciplined simply pay cash.

"When all wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few, abuses occur with impunity and the economy stagnates. "

You write in generalities without defining your terms or giving concrete examples. I have noticed this trend amoung liberals who merely want to bring down the rich instead of teaching others to bring themselves up. Wealth in this country is NOT in the hands of only a few, and even if it was I would not want our bumbling government deciding who gets to redistribute the money. If you are such a fan of this why not take up residency in China? I think you would fit right in. Of coarse the only problem is that ideas like yours only work in theory because in China the government heads really do control a large part of the wealth.

"In our country, there are programs to address the most dire need. "

I support financial safety nets for the very poor who can not make it due to their age, disability, etc.

CONTINUED

 

[cossack]

"Do you have a solution to the problem of poverty? "

I already told you, but you choose to ignore it. Poverty and crime will continue as long as those in the inner city continue to admire “gansta-rappers” and drug dealers instead of taking on Christian morality.

"I would like to think that you (and here I am presuming that you are a Christian) are as troubled by the plight of the poor as the rest of us and would much rather give your brothers and sisters a hand up. "

The problem is you do not want to give the brothers and sisters a “hand up” you want to be Robin Hood and take the money from the rich and redistribute wealth using your own arbitrary criteria.

“Geez, keep track of your own thread will you? The underlined part means the same thing as what I wrote.”

I am not sure what page you are on but I was responding to your below quote:

"which means it isn’t and shouldn’t just be the rich fat cats that have a say in how OUR taxes are spent."

So getting back to the point, why do you feel that only the rich fat cats control the vote? To be honest, I think you need to focus on what it is you really believe. First you come across as someone who thinks they are being ripped off by the man only to feign confusion when I call you on it.

"Now who doesn’t know anything about money? Profits are what a company has after expenses - including payroll.] "

Again, you are not thinking long term. If a company does not consistently make profits it wont be around for long, and that means massive lay-offs.

"I don’t have a problem with it unless people such as yourself start to worship profit to the point of thinking capitalism is what should be basis of all society decisions. That goes to the point of carelessness."

Worship profits? Not me. I go to church to worship God. I don’t know where you are getting this.

"I’m not going to retire at all. I DO know the cost and have decied is too much to ask of my family now. As for “pious ignorance,” better to be piously ignorant in Christian generousity than knowingly heartless in christian care for your fellow man. Your right. There is nothing “pious” about your attitude."

Wow, not only are you a better Christian than I you are also a profit. You know for SURE that when you get older you will always be willing and ABLE (physically and mentally) to work. I wish I had your confidence and psychic ability. As for my attitude; I have consistently said that I am not advocating people not tithe. I have news for you, I tithe myself. However, for those in a bad financial situation (based on your postings this sounds like you) I think it is foolish to continue tithing till you get on your feet. What good is giving in January when you will be in need yourself in December?

I think that when you reach 70 your attitudes will have changed drastically. For your sake I hope you mature before you reach your advanced years. Good luck.

 

[cossack]

My thread is becoming a little unfocused and unwieldy so I will sum up my main points below:

TITHING: I think the standard 10 % tithe may be too high for most Christians. Even 5% may be too large of a contribution. Financial experts say to “pay yourself first” because most people are simply not saving enough. Why is this necessary? First, actuarial tables prove that we are all living longer and that means larger medical costs for both quantity and quality of life. Life quantity is seen in cases where life support is used like in the Terry Shivo case. Life quality covers a wide spectrum including things like cataract surgery, dental implants, prosthesis, wheel chairs, motorized chairs, etc. Quality of life certainly does extend to the ability take an occasional vacation, hobbies etc. These are all things that give our lives meaning.

The above things I have listed all cost a lot of $$$$. Every penny you save is crucial to your future well being. In my own family I saw my aunt responding to her church and several of her favorite charities and when she encountered the oncoming medical bills it broke her financially.

My solution is to do everything you can to save while you are young. Financial experts say you should be saving so much that “it hurts.” What does that mean? It means that as soon as you get your paycheck you skim off at least 20% to be put into your investment accounts. The mortgage, food, clothing, etc. will then eat up a large part. Next are your smaller expenditures. I consider tithing to be part of this category. Why do I want people to save 20% or more for investments? Because mathematically it takes a large amount of money to be in a position where you can retire and cover the quantity and quality of life expenditures I mentioned above. The days of companies providing defined benefit pension plans and such are over. Social security and a 401k invested in a smattering of mutual funds just won’t go very far! Also, the days of double digit returns on your investments are gone as well.

The only solution that I saw proposed by one respondent was “don’t retire.” We can debate the merits of continuing to work in another post, but the truth is that one may see the day where he or she can no longer physically or mentally do the work. What would the ambitious respondent have these people do? It is still possible that they will go on to have a wonderful life, but they can no longer work.

POVERTY: I have been asked to give my opinion and solution to the plight of impoverished people. First there are those who are poor due to a physical or mental disability. For those I support a financial safety net that insures these people a good quality and quantity of life. Secondly, there are those who are poor due to bad moral choices. They identify with rap stars and drug dealers and they seek to emulate these criminals. When they do this they either go to jail or get shot by a rival criminal. When they apply for a job they are not educated enough to provide any marketable skills. Thirdly, there are those who are poor due to substance abuse. This is closely related to number two. Fourthly, there are those who are poor because they simply are too lazy to compete. That’s right I said COMPETE. Even St. Paul continued to be a tent maker so he could pay his own way. With a little ambition and willingness it is not hard to at lest earn a basic living in this country.

So except for those who are physically or mentally unable to work the solution to poverty rests with the individual. In this country basic education is free and there are countless scholarships and student loans for higher education.

CONTINUED