Monks, friars, priests and peace

[MorEphrem]

Appropriate since St. Sharbel’s (the monk/hermit) feast is coming up. I remember I watched a reenactment of his life and at his time there was some turmoil between the Christians and Ottoman Turks. His monastery had heard how another monastery had been taken over by the Ottomans so they went to save them. After the monks returned, St. Sharbel (who did not go) scolded them reasoning that men of God should not have blood on their hands since they were men consecrated to God. I also know of many priests in Lebanon who “found” their way to other countries because their hands had fallen on some weaponry during the Lebanese Civil War.

I’ve also discussed this with a canon lawyer before and he was saying something about career military officers can be given a difficulty when trying to enter religious life, I forget for what reason being an impediment.

Anyway, I personally think they should be pacifists but an OP tried to explain to me that no one is really called to be passive in a situation which they can save someone by violence; he cited his knowledge of Hebrew and the 10 Commandments were the Commandments use the word “to murder” in the sense of being the aggressor as opposed to simply killing.

Jesus’ overturning of the money changers’ tables seems pretty “violent” to me.

There’s a difference between vicious force and righteous anger. Things like what upset Jesus should make us angry because they go against the order God has created, whereas when someone exercises vicious force the etymology of the word suggests they’re acting more like a beast than a human.

 

[JReducation]

Jesus’ overturning of the money changers’ tables seems pretty “violent” to me.

You just made my hair stand on end. :yup:

Don’t take offense. Let me explain why.

This story is taken out of context BY CATHOLICS of all people, so many times that it drives those of us who studied theology out of our minds. The reason that it drives us out of our mind is that it shows that somewhere along the line, some religious educators did not do their job well.

Now that I’ve vented about the poor religious education that Catholics have received, especially in the area of Scripture, let’s take this story.

1. Jesus does not touch a single person. He overturns tables, not people.
2. His anger is directed at men who made it a career to cheat the poor.

The temple was at the crossroads between East and West. People setup kiosks to change currency. It was well known that many of these individuals conned their clients, because most people did not know how to do math and probably didn’t speak the local language either. They took advantage of people who had no way of defending themselves. Jesus was protecting the innocent from an aggressor. People have made this story to be all about the temple and merchandising, which is not the case at all. That would be like saying that we should not have a gift shop at a church or basilica. We may not steal from those who shop there. Though I have to admit that some of their prices are outrageous, but that’s another post. Right now I have to get some rest.

1. Conclusion: Jesus’ act was not an act of violence, but an act of justice. It should be an example that all of us should follow. We must never allow anyone to abuse another person, especially the poor.

 

[JRKH]

This thread made me think of a related question…

Do religious members have to register for the draft?
In particular I’m thinking of the cloistered types.

Peace
James

 

[Mount_Carmel]

This thread made me think of a related question…

Do religious members have to register for the draft?
In particular I’m thinking of the cloistered types.

Peace
James

Not sure how it works in the US, but here in the UK when we had military ‘call up’ and conscription the religious orders and priests were not ‘called up’ per se, but were expected in their various ways ‘to do their bit’, especially in times of conflict. Cloistered communities were expected to be involved in the likes of food production or nursing as well as prayer. The Church made sure an appropriate quota of priests were supplied to the Armed Forces Chaplaincy Services, these days there is also a recruiting drive from the Forces themselves, offering three year ‘renewable’ commissions. There are currently more military chaplains [mixed denominations] on active service in the British Forces than at any time since WWII.

Chaplains and any other religious are not expected to tout ‘heat’, but many beef up on other supportive skills, including [battlefield] physical and psychological first aid.

It was seeing the caring attitude of a Catholic Chaplain dealing with casualties after an attack by Luftwaffe dive bombers in North Africa in WWII that reinforced my father’s growing interest in the Church and his later baptism into a lifetime communion with ‘Her’.

 

[HelenRose]

Really as Christians should we not all be pacifists, or at least working towards that as our ideal?

38You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. …Matthew 5

The eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was an Old Testament Law. The purpose of this law was to stop the whole sale slaughter of neighboring villages for a crime against one person of that village.

 

[JReducation]

This thread made me think of a related question…

Do religious members have to register for the draft?
In particular I’m thinking of the cloistered types.

Peace
James

Yes we do. But in the USA, we are exempt from the draft. We register with the Selective Service and it dies there.

In some countries, we are actually drafted, but not into combat duty. They don’t trust us and with good reason. We will not kill another person. Most of us would rather take a bullet than fire one.

I’m not sure if I’m reading the mindset of some people correctly. Please clarify for me. It feels that some people would like to see us bound to protect some nation or flag when doing so is contrary to the mind of our founders. Yet, I feel that some people place the flag over St. Benedict, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, etc.

What am I not understanding?

Or is it that Catholics are becoming so secularized that they have become Protestantized: the state takes priority over the Church.

I’m a little confused.

 

[JRKH]

Yes we do. But in the USA, we are exempt from the draft. We register with the Selective Service and it dies there.

In some countries, we are actually drafted, but not into combat duty. They don’t trust us and with good reason. We will not kill another person. Most of us would rather take a bullet than fire one.

Thanks JR…I figured that was probably the case

I’m not sure if I’m reading the mindset of some people correctly. Please clarify for me. It feels that some people would like to see us bound to protect some nation or flag when doing so is contrary to the mind of our founders. Yet, I feel that some people place the flag over St. Benedict, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, etc.

What am I not understanding?

Or is it that Catholics are becoming so secularized that they have become Protestantized: the state takes priority over the Church.

I’m a little confused.

Well I cannot speak for the OP, but I suspect that it relates to the Church’s teaching on justifiable defense of one’s self and (more importantly) of others. Also - there is the “Just war” teachings…

Of course as you are aware such threads can develop a life of their own…For instance…my question is not so much related to the thread topic as it is just a tangential thought prompted by the topic…

Peace
James

 

[bcuster]

“Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.” Matt. 10:34

Which Bible verse is correct, then?

Jesus may have been speaking metaphorically when he spoke of the sword here. He talks about divisions in families, etc. because of faith in Jesus. He is warning the apostles that the Christian life is not all sweetness and light. There are times for pacifism. There may be times to take arms to defend the weak from our enemies. It is one thing for me to turn the other cheek, but I could not let others attack my children without defending them. Once the enemy is repelled, vengeance belongs to the Lord, and charity to all is our duty.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Jesus’ overturning of the money changers’ tables seems pretty “violent” to me.

Jesus physically overturned the inanimate tables not the money changers. And yes, He did remonstrate at their lack of respect for His Father’s house, as He had every right and authority to do.

Matthew 17:5
He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

Luigi, you are clutching at straws that don’t even have substance or merit.

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus’ overturning of the money changers’ tables seems pretty “violent” to me.

Jesus’ overturning of the money changer’s tables and insistence that the Temple is a house of prayer and not a commercial center is fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy about the joining of the Gengiles to God’s family.

"And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
every one who keeps the sabbath, and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant –
these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.
Thus says the Lord GOD,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel,
I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered."
(Isaiah 56:6-8)

We can never read the New Testament apart from the Old Testament and the vast majority of what Jesus does and says has a basis in the Old Testament.

He said to them, “It is written, `My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you make it a den of robbers.” (Matthew 21:13)

Those who heard Jesus words, Jews who understood the Old Testament and the writings of the Prophet Isaiah, would have understood what took place as the beginning of a new age when God’s house would be a house of prayer “for all people.”

It was the beginning of the inclusion of the Gentiles in God’s family and the beginning of the removal of the Temple priests as the legitimate authority of God. It is about the establishment of a new kingdom with new leadership and removal of the old leadership. It has little to do with pacifism or violence.

-Tim-

 

[simple_soul]

You know I am not a monk, friar, or priest. Not a sister or nun either but I hope you will not mind me sharing my belief. I have to say that I want to be like Christ showed us to be when he told Peter to put down the sword in the garden of Gethsemane and be willing to respect all life even if someone else does not have this understanding and wants to take my life I pray I am willing to continue to follow Jesus all the way to the cross. I would rather die than kill anyone else even if they do not hold or understand what I believe and understand to be truth. I respect others lives too much I guess. I just know deep in my heart I will defend myself and others to the best of my ability that I can but I know I can not say I could kill any one in doing this. I do not believe I could take their life from them. Some people would probably classify me as a pacifist and maybe I am. All I know is I would rather die than take some one else’s life no matter how antichrist like they are. I guess I just respect and love them too much. Or maybe it is because I believe they just do not know what they do. If this not a Christlike attitude to have I blame myself not any one else. It is just how I understand and see things and I can not change who I am and what I understand it means to be Christlike. I have tried to convince myself that I am wrong but I can not change this about myself. It is something that worries my husband. if this is a Christlike attitude to I so hope and pray for God to help him understand if I ever am killed for some reason or another and I so hope and pray He helps me keep it. If it is not a Christlike attitude to have I so hope and pray I can grow to understand how and why. But every time I remember Jesus and the early Christian Martyrs it does nothing but reenforce what I understand it means to follow Christ to the Cross even unto death.

 

[Longhorn]

The moral of the story? The highest good is always the protection of the innocent without doing harm. We aim for the highest good and we may be forced to come down from there to the highest good that circumstances allow us to achieve. The response to aggression must be proportionate to the aggression.

Brother, I read off and on here and this topic piques my interest. I would like to know how you respond to the Reverend Emmanuel Charles McCarthy’s article , The Corruption of the Best is the WorstCorruptio Optimi Pessima, which I’ll include a sampe from.

Gospel Nonviolence and love of enemies is “folly” for those who have been spiritually nurtured from childhood in one of the Constantinian Churches, where as philosopher Alfred North Whitehead writes in Process and Reality, “[The] Church gave to God the attributes which belong exclusively to Caesar.” In these Constantinian Churches the Nonviolent Jesus and His Nonviolent Way are replaced by a day-in and day-out, decade after decade proclamation that
“Your eternal and temporal security lie in having the Gospel in one hand and the gun in the other—just in case Jesus has not risen, or anyone tries to send you and yours home to the risen Jesus before you want to go into His blessed and all loving presence. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!”
The Nonviolent Christic-Love of the Gospel, where both hands are always firmly kept on the Gospel, ne- cessitates that a Christian and a Church put all their eggs in one Easter Basket. Its foundation is a trust in Jesus so total that, even if one of the world’s “Best” and the “Brightest” or one of its “worst” and “dullest” comes along with the intent of smashing earthly existence to smithereens, there is no need for a Christian or a Church to fear or waver in their trust. Why? Because, “He is risen!”

//

Consider the following. If someone asks me for directions so that he or she can travel to the Royal City and I give them perfect directions, except at one last fork in the road I misdirect them by telling them to turn left rather than right, when left leads over a cliff, of what use or good are all my perfect directions up to that point? Is this not an illustration of partial-truth being utilized in the service of evil by the deceiver? Suppose that I have been told the correct directions by someone whom I am certain knows the way to the Royal City, but I intentionally substitute my own conjectures for his knowledge when I tell another to turn left at that fork, then what am I as a person—before myself, before God? Here again Romans 14:23 confronts every one of the Constantinian Churches and every Christian who makes one of these Churches his or her spiritual place of residence.

“Corruptio optimi pessima.” This is what Constantinian Christianity represents, is, has been for its 1600 years, and always will be so long as the Churches cling to it as their way of “being an extension of Christ in time and space.” “Corruptio optimi pessima.” This is what has become of the great gift of religious consciousness that the Logos has bestowed upon human beings by way of the brain given to them. Religious consciousness is the gift of the Divine Logos that contains the potential to open human beings to the transcendent in all its magnificent possibility. It is a gift given to all human beings by the one God who is love and truth; given through the Word-Logos who is love and truth incarnate; and given in the Spirit of the Holy which can only be the Spirit of love and truth. Religious consciousness and the human brain that allows for it are given so that human beings, unlike dogs or dinosaurs, can access the beauty and grandeur of the Holiness, Love and Truth that is their Source and Destiny, that is the “Father of all, over all, through all, and in all” (Ep 4:6).

However, since the dawn of known history, generation after generation of religious “leaders” across the planet have nurtured and exploited this extraordinary gift in order to religiously justify and ennoble their own banality and brutality—their own violence and enmity, lust for power and for control, acquisi-tiveness and importance. “Corruptio optimi pessima” is what the history of religion in general has been because of such religious leadership and what the history of Christianity in particular, since the time of Constantine the Great, has been because of it.