Montara affair

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This law was just because the state religion (Catholicism) was true, and the state religion took into account that in this scenario, where there is a baptized child being raised by a family that could endanger the salvation and Christian upbringing of the baptized child because of their lack of Christianity, Divine Positive Law supersedes yet includes Divine Natural Law here, as Pope Pius IX says. I interpret this to mean (as I have said before) that the revealed reality of the duties and/or familial relation that are made at the child’s baptism cooperates with natural law (which would allow for parents to raise their child, and to raise their children in the best way even if one of the other parents would raise their child in a harmful way, and to take their child away from even a biological parent that might harm the child in a serious manner), and in this cooperation The Church takes on the real and actual, though non-genetic, role as the parent of the child at his baptism, and so does not violate natural law in removing her child, even from its biological parents, in order to prevent her child from coming to serious harm, in this case a harm more serious than physical harm.

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Regarding the bolded part, above:

As I understand it, the church does not hold that the invincibly ignorant – including those raised faithfully in another religion – cannot go to Heaven. If that’s true, then It has not been demonstrated to me that the soul of Edgardo Levi Mortara was necessarily in serious jeopardy simply because he was raised by Jewish parents, even if he was baptized. Please note that I have read apologists here claim that the seemingly more restrictive 19th century view of that doctrine was still compatible with the post-Vatican ll interpretation.

In addition, I wonder how many baptized children the Papal State authorities removed from Catholic parents who did not educate and raise them in the Catholic faith.
 
Birdmanman - I do want to commend your efforts in this thread. For the most part you are very excellently channeling your zeal into argument accessible by all, even going so far as to acknowledge what others may be seeing. I know this is difficult to do, please do not allow your expected fatigue to render you weary for continuing.
 
Regarding the bolded part, above:

As I understand it, the church does not hold that the invincibly ignorant – including those raised faithfully in another religion – cannot go to Heaven. If that’s true, then It has not been demonstrated to me that the soul of Edgardo Levi Mortara was necessarily in serious jeopardy simply because he was raised by Jewish parents, even if he was baptized. Please note that I have read apologists here claim that the seemingly more restrictive 19th century view of that doctrine was still compatible with the post-Vatican ll interpretation.
This is a good point. You are correct in that the Church in both the 19th and 20th centuries would hold beliefs at least implying or being in accord with the existence of Baptism by Desire, which I think is what you are describing, although to be quite honest it seems difficult for me to hold that a Jew in the Papal States could live their life without being evangelized to and making a free-will choice to deny/accept the Catholic Faith(this is a topic for another thread). Still, I would hold that the boy’s soul would be in more jeopardy receiving a Jewish upbringing than a Catholic upbringing;
I think this makes intuitive sense, while an alcoholic’s own will is (under normal circumstances) required for the alcoholic to recover from his alcoholism, it makes it easier and safeguards are put in place if the alcoholic joins a group of people who can mutually assist each-other or be assisted in overcoming alcoholism. But putting a person who has a disposition towards alcoholism (a human with a broken nature) in a group of practicing alcoholics with plenty of booze would seem to put that person in greater jeopardy. (It should not be hard to see the analogy I am implying, and it is of course based on the premise that Catholicism is true and Judaism is false, and that being taught falsehoods about serious matters of religion is harmful to the person and intuitively seems to make it harder for them to achieve salvation).
Just because someone who is invincibly ignorant can go to heaven does not mean that their soul is not in greater jeopardy in the Papal States receiving a Jewish education than a Catholic education.

Regardless, while I incorporate this point (on endangered salvation) into my own reasoning, the Pope’s reasoning does not explicitly depend on this point (whether or not the child’s salvation is endangered), as he points out that The Church simply has an obligation to provide a child who has been baptized against the will of his parents with an education in conformity with the Faith.
He makes this point as follows:
-Once such a child has been baptised, having become a son of the Church, the Church has the duty to provide him with an education in conformity with the received Christian faith; consequently, if the child’s parents refuse to provide such an education, the Church has the right to bestow it on him and to substitute itself for the family in its educational role, in virtue of the principle of subsidiarity.
[Pius IX by Roberto de Mattei (page 155)]
Now, if the reason why the Church has a duty to provide a Catholic education to the child baptized against the will of his parents is because the child has his soul at greater jeopardy, then the point the Pope makes does implicitly (though not explicitly) rely on the claim that a baptized child is raised in greater jeopardy by a Jewish family with a Jewish education than by those acting on behalf of The Church with a Catholic education (I think that my alcoholic example may help show how this makes intuitive sense, if Catholicism is true).
However, if the reason why the Church has a duty to provide such a child such an education is because of some other reason, like the Church being charged with being an educator of Her children or some other reason, then it does not matter to the Pope’s argument whether or not the child is at greater jeopardy being raised by Jews.
In addition, I wonder how many baptized children the Papal State authorities removed from Catholic parents who did not educate and raise them in the Catholic faith.
Catholics are to, insofar as possible, interpret others’ “thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way” (CCC 2478); it seems reasonably possible to assume that average Catholic Joe Shmoe in the Papal States is raising and causing to be educated his baptized children in conformity with a Catholic upbringing, while it does not seem reasonably possible to assume that average Jewish Joe Shmoe in the Papal States is bringing up his children with an education in the Catholic Faith. That is, unless the authorities were tipped off somehow to a particular Catholic family not raising and educating their children in the Catholic Faith, it would seem that they are to assume, insofar as possible, that that family is indeed raising and educating their children in conformity with the Faith.
 
Birdmanman - I do want to commend your efforts in this thread. For the most part you are very excellently channeling your zeal into argument accessible by all, even going so far as to acknowledge what others may be seeing. I know this is difficult to do, please do not allow your expected fatigue to render you weary for continuing.
Thanks mek42! Your reading my posts is appreciated 🙂
 
I am close to where I’ll agree to disagree. There is one thing that I am curious about though. I can kind of see the CChurch’s side if the family was Hindu or something. What bothers me is why was the same education regarding the divine that Jesus himself as man received not good enough for the child in question? The Jews still are the chosen people after all.
 
I am close to where I’ll agree to disagree. There is one thing that I am curious about though. I can kind of see the CChurch’s side if the family was Hindu or something. What bothers me is why was the same education regarding the divine that Jesus himself as man received not good enough for the child in question? The Jews still are the chosen people after all.
Judaism ceased being the true religion In the first century, and they were replaced by Catholics as the People of God.
 
I am close to where I’ll agree to disagree. There is one thing that I am curious about though. I can kind of see the CChurch’s side if the family was Hindu or something. What bothers me is why was the same education regarding the divine that Jesus himself as man received not good enough for the child in question? The Jews still are the chosen people after all.
This answer is pretty relevant, except try to replace “If Jesus was a Jew” with “If Jesus was educated as a Jew, why are we educated as Catholics”:
catholic.com/quickquestions/if-jesus-was-a-jew-why-are-we-catholic
 
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