Moral answers to immoral questions

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missluckie26

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I’ve posed these questions to ministers and gotten nothing but silence in return. I’d appreciate it if anyone had any insight as to what the bible says in response to my questions… I’m not catholic, but I see catholics as the authority on well-examined biblical issues. If there are valid answers to my questions, I’m open to knowing the answers that God has. I’ve asked him these same questions and gotten no answers… Please answer me I’m not picking a fight, I truly want to know what God says on the matter…

I am re-examining my entire spirituality right now. If there is a God, I don’t want to know him anymore. Mainly, because I’ve come through a big storm and now that I’m in the calm, I look back wonder just what the point of it all was, and where was God in it? My friends’ wrist was slit when he was an innocent, by his own father. Why? Babies are put in microwaves, my other friend fell off a horse and now can’t move her body. My moms’ client was born to suffer Horribly, day and night from birth? I myself sat there, in a hospital bed, begging and crying for Him to heal me when the evangelists said that someone with my disease was getting cured at that very moment. Then they asked for money. I honestly believed I was cured, before it was confirmed I was not, and was left not at the mercy of God but the mercy of men, who were equally as cruel in their treatment of me. Still, I held my faith throughout the entirety of my illness–my own father anointed me with oil on my forehead and that same day I ended up hospitalized for a month, part of that time in the ICU sufferring to the max. I know there’s those who suffer way worse, every day of their lives…What’s the point? What’s more, is that when I was dying, crashing in the ICU, all I remember is pain and agony. No comfort, no relief, no happiness. It was dark and scary and all I can remember is what was on the television at the time–a nature special where lions were attacking and killing a helpless gazelle. At that moment I felt what every human must feel, when they’re dying and it isn’t fulfillment, it’s unimagineably disallusioning to wonder where my Father is and whether I displeased Him and that’s why He isn’t there? I had always been told that He would hold me and take care of me when I died. I know I didn’t die, but all the same it is horrifically frightening to feel so damn alone, dying and leaving those who love me without even knowing what I did to deserve such a fate without even a single sign or word from God? And don’t tell me that I’m here because OF Him–I’m here because I’ve fought to be here, it would belittling to me to be told I was being carried the entire time. Why must I suffer for the decisions that Adam and Eve made? And if God IS omnipotent, why would He allow those He knows that will end up in hell, to be created in the first place? Why would He demand acknowledgement and adoreation in exchange for an eternal existance WITHOUT sufferring? If He is pure love, then I can’t imagine that He would create us for such a purpose–because if it is free will that he is holding up in our case–don’t you think it’s not loving to create something with stipulations of eternal damnation and suffering? If He truly loves us like he does, and wants us to choose him–why make a consequence at all? Why would someone who Loves us so much, create us knowing that most of us will end up in Hell for ALL TIME? Wouldn’t it be better not to be created, than to live eternally, in Hell? Or if God knew that Satan was going to do what he did, why even create him–thus saving all the tens of billions of people throughout history in exchange? Why is Satan more important than all of us?
If Jesus is God, and based on John 3:17 and 3:18 we must acknowledge His sacrifice for us–wouldn’t it make sense to explain just what sacrifice was actually made? I don’t see one. He knew the end result, so it’s like playing cards and rigging them to win. The only one who wins here, IS God. The rest of us lose, for eternity???
Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son for God, before God decided to sacrifice his son for us. Why would He test Abraham so, unless he was deciding whether or not we were worth the sacrifice of his son?
At this point, the bible shows so many contradictions to the nature of God, in Gods’ actions–that I wonder if He is either misrepresented or simply not real.
 
I am here. You pose difficult questions - cutting to the heart of theodicy - but I will do my best to answer them in the hours and days ahead. I ask you to hang on while I marshal my thoughts and mental resources, and attempt to distill from your somewhat disjointed and wall-of-text post a series of propositions that I can answer. I do believe that I can adequately answer and explain every proposition you pose (I mean that to reassure, not to “blow my own horn” or to engage in hubris).

I saw this thread hours ago, but was waiting for someone else to jump in, as my analysis of moral and theological matters can be quite dry, overly rational, and unfeeling (e.g. heartless and academic; it has been compared to Plantinga); and, I do not think that my style of writing will help you in your situation, and could actually make you disagree from the mere manner of its presentation. But seeing that no one has jumped in, I conclude that for you to receive answers from me, writing after my fashion, is far superior to receiving no answers at all.

If at any time or on any of the questions, you do not wish the answers or such to be made public, feel free to PM (private message) me and tell me so, and the conversation pertaining to that point will be carried on privately, or ended, according to your preference, from that moment forward.
 
These are just a few of the questions I see being asked.
  1. Is there a God?
  2. How does God help us through difficult times?
  3. Why do people do such evil things?
  4. Why do people suffer so much physical pain and hardship?
  5. Why isn’t justice a factor in who suffers?
  6. Why do people lie about the healing power of God?
  7. Why doesn’t God reward my faith?
  8. Why doesn’t God reveal himself clearly to me?
  9. Why must I suffer for the decisions that Adam and Eve made?
  10. Is our earthly fates justified in God’s eyes?
  11. Why does God allow those He knows that will end up in hell, to be created in the first place?
  12. Why would He demand acknowledgement and adoration in exchange for an eternal existence WITHOUT suffering?
  13. Why does hell exist?
  14. Why does God allow people to go to hell?
  15. Does God enjoy the suffering of people?
 
JamesATyler said:
These are just a few of the questions I see being asked.
  1. Is there a God?
  2. How does God help us through difficult times?
  3. Why do people do such evil things?
  4. Why do people suffer so much physical pain and hardship?
  5. Why isn’t justice a factor in who suffers?
  6. Why do people lie about the healing power of God?
  7. Why doesn’t God reward my faith?
  8. Why doesn’t God reveal himself clearly to me?
  9. Why must I suffer for the decisions that Adam and Eve made?
  10. Is our earthly fates justified in God’s eyes?
  11. Why does God allow those He knows that will end up in hell, to be created in the first place?
  12. Why would He demand acknowledgement and adoration in exchange for an eternal existence WITHOUT suffering?
  13. Why does hell exist?
  14. Why does God allow people to go to hell?
  15. Does God enjoy the suffering of people?
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The only answer that makes any sense to me is---->🤷
 
I can take a stab at some of them…

1). Yes!
2). This reminds me of the story of a great flood. A man was perched on the roof of his house, while the waters raced by. He cried out to God to save him. Along came a rescue crew in a boat, but the man refused to get in, claiming that God would save him. Sure enough, the floodwaters engulfed the house, and the man died. At heavens gate, he met God Himself and said, “why didn’t you save me?”. The Lord replied…“who do you think sent the boat?”. God often works through others to get us through our trials.
3). We live in a fallen world where sin is rampant, and we convince ourselves that going against Gods will really isn’t that serious. As a result we become desensitized and bring on greater evil.
4). Again, this is not heaven. We cannot expect to be without pain and suffering.
5). I think in the end justice will be a factor in who suffers. But Jesus also gave us the beatitudes, so those in suffering have hope.
6). If you are asking about televangelists…I do not know why they do as they do. God does have the power to heal, but it is not up to us how and when he exercises that power.
7). I believe God does reward our faith, but we are talking about eternity, not our limited human existence.
8). Consider how holy Moses must have been. God didn’t even reveal Himself directly to Moses. And Jesus didn’t exactly shout from the mountain tops that He is the Son of God. We have to get beyond ourselves and our circumstances to be able to see Him at work in our lives.
9). I’m not going to try to field this one, as I’m not a Bible-only scholar.
10). I don’t believe that God desires that we suffer, but that He can use our suffering to better develop our relationship with Him. Someone who suffers greatly is better able to identify with Christ’s suffering than one who has led a life of ease.
11). This idea of predestination is not a Catholic belief, but I will say this…God wants us to choose Him, but we have to do so freely. He will not force us to love Him, but will give us the opportunity to do so.
12). Choosing to love and obey God is the right thing to do. If we do not do the right thing, shouldnthere not be consequences? If my children disobey me, they get punished. It does not mean that I don’t love them.
13). I’m not sure how best to answer this one. I will leave it to the philosophers.
14). God is merciful,but He is also just. By not choosing His mercy and goodness, we damn ourselves.
15). No, I do not believe for a second that he enjoys our suffering, any more than I enjoy watching one of my kids fall off their bikes, or deal with their first heartbreak. But it is part of the human existence, and so I walk them through it, the same way God walks with us.
JamesATyler said:
These are just a few of the questions I see being asked.
  1. Is there a God?
  2. How does God help us through difficult times?
  3. Why do people do such evil things?
  4. Why do people suffer so much physical pain and hardship?
  5. Why isn’t justice a factor in who suffers?
  6. Why do people lie about the healing power of God?
  7. Why doesn’t God reward my faith?
  8. Why doesn’t God reveal himself clearly to me?
  9. Why must I suffer for the decisions that Adam and Eve made?
  10. Is our earthly fates justified in God’s eyes?
  11. Why does God allow those He knows that will end up in hell, to be created in the first place?
  12. Why would He demand acknowledgement and adoration in exchange for an eternal existence WITHOUT suffering?
  13. Why does hell exist?
  14. Why does God allow people to go to hell?
  15. Does God enjoy the suffering of people?
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I too have struggled with many of the questions you have. Often times I have wondered how God can be so cruel, why he treats us in the ways He does, if He doesn’t sit back and watch us like a TV show or if our lives are more like a puppet show with Him directing every move. I have talked to quite a few priests about these things over the years and the best any of them has come up with is that it is alright to be angry at God, it is fine to question God, and often God stands back and allows the devil to torment us (like He did Job in the Bible) because He knows we will make it. By us sticking with God, Satan loses some of his power on the world. Honestly, I never find comfort in these answers, at least not immediately. As time goes by I do allow myself to heal some and my faith starts to return. Unfortunately I do fall back into despair from time to time. I will pray for you. Please pass on any comforting answers you receive back to me. God bless you in your struggles
 
Miss Luckie,

You have asked a lot and it will take some time to sort through. I’m very glad to see you come here as I’m sure you will receive many wonderful replies…But I’m also sure there will be no “magic bullet” answers for you.
It’s obvious that your faith has been shattered and, while you desire to rebuild it, you don’t see how at present. In truth, rebuilding your faith will take much time and prayerful effort.
So - please be patient with yourself, with God and with us.

As an additional source for you to explore (from the Catholic perspective) Please go HERE and listen to some of Fr Barron’s comments on various issues. I believe they will be helpful.

Peace
James
 
missluckie26 said:
I’ve posed these questions to ministers and gotten nothing but silence in return. I’d appreciate it if anyone had any insight as to what the bible says in response to my questions… I’m not catholic, but I see catholics as the authority on well-examined biblical issues. If there are valid answers to my questions, I’m open to knowing the answers that God has. I’ve asked him these same questions and gotten no answers… Please answer me I’m not picking a fight, I truly want to know what God says on the matter…
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Dear One. I am so sorry that you have not gotten “nothing but silence” from the ministers you have asked about these things. That must surely be a great disappointment. Especially since one would naturally hold that such persons should know what Scripture says on these issues. I’m also glad that you have come here…for indeed Catholic Teaching and tradition offers great insights into matters of suffering and evil.
That said, I must warn you that the Catholic perspective may or may not able to give you answers only from the Bible. It is entirely possible that you will receive answers and reading suggestions based on the writings of Canonized Saints as well as Magisterial teachings that draw on a number of writings including - but not limited to - the bible.
I am re-examining my entire spirituality right now. If there is a God, I don’t want to know him anymore.
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OK - Well starting from this position, we are in an uphill battle. This statement already puts you outside of the faith… So we are going to have to work with one another to try to work through the the issues below.
Mainly, because I’ve come through a big storm and now that I’m in the calm, I look back wonder just what the point of it all was, and where was God in it? My friends’ wrist was slit when he was an innocent, by his own father. Why? Babies are put in microwaves, my other friend fell off a horse and now can’t move her body. My moms’ client was born to suffer Horribly, day and night from birth? I myself sat there, in a hospital bed, begging and crying for Him to heal me when the evangelists said that someone with my disease was getting cured at that very moment. Then they asked for money. I honestly believed I was cured, before it was confirmed I was not, and was left not at the mercy of God but the mercy of men, who were equally as cruel in their treatment of me.
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In order to answer these questions - one needs to have the proper “world-view”. I do not know how old you are or what your faith background is, but since you reference a televangelist I suspect you were an evangelical - and possibly fell victim to one of the “health and wealth gospel” preachers. Please correct me if I’m wrong on this. But working on that assumption.
These preachers and ministers often times do not have a good grounding and understanding of suffering in our spiritual growth. This might explain why you were met with silence when you would ask them about these things. Yet St Paul speaks of suffering in a positive way when he speaks of uniting our sufferings with Christ (Col1:24). Jesus - when asked about the sin of a blind man said that it was not from sin that he was blind, but that the Glory of God should be made manifest through him…(John 9:1-3)
In this same way, the suffering in others offers to us the opportunity to grow nearer to God and Glorify Him before the world through our Love for each other.
Still, I held my faith throughout the entirety of my illness–my own father anointed me with oil on my forehead and that same day I ended up hospitalized for a month, part of that time in the ICU suffering to the max. I know there’s those who suffer way worse, every day of their lives…What’s the point?
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How many prayed for you? How many had their faith strengthened by your recovery? In how many lives and in how many ways did your suffering glorify God? How many people, from family and friends to doctors and nurses were able to make the choices to give of themselves in acts of charity? So many blessings can be seen in such a case if we only have the eyes to see them.
What’s more, is that when I was dying, crashing in the ICU, all I remember is pain and agony. No comfort, no relief, no happiness. It was dark and scary and all I can remember is what was on the television at the time–a nature special where lions were attacking and killing a helpless gazelle. At that moment I felt what every human must feel, when they’re dying and it isn’t fulfillment, it’s unimaginably disillusioning to wonder where my Father is and whether I displeased Him and that’s why He isn’t there? I had always been told that He would hold me and take care of me when I died. I know I didn’t die, but all the same it is horrifically frightening to feel so damn alone, dying and leaving those who love me without even knowing what I did to deserve such a fate without even a single sign or word from God?
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These are tough questions and frankly they are hard to answer without knowing you and your faith journey better…but again, if I am correct and you are from an evangelical background, the evangelical view does a very poor job preparing one for suffering and death. Yet corporeal death is something that we all must face. Even Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, returned to the grave at some point. Part of our Spiritual journey must be to accept this fact and to become prepared for it through our continual growth in holiness. The closer we come to God in our heart, the less frightening will be death.
And don’t tell me that I’m here because OF Him–I’m here because I’ve fought to be here, it would belittling to me to be told I was being carried the entire time.
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Well - OK - I won’t tell you that…you will need to come to that realization on your own - hopefully.

(Cont)
 
Why must I suffer for the decisions that Adam and Eve made? Why would He demand acknowledgement and adoration in exchange for an eternal existence WITHOUT suffering? If He is pure love, then I can’t imagine that He would create us for such a purpose–because if it is free will that he is holding up in our case–don’t you think it’s not loving to create something with stipulations of eternal damnation and suffering? If He truly loves us like he does, and wants us to choose him–why make a consequence at all? Why would someone who Loves us so much, create us knowing that most of us will end up in Hell for ALL TIME? Wouldn’t it be better not to be created, than to live eternally, in Hell? Or if God knew that Satan was going to do what he did, why even create him–thus saving all the tens of billions of people throughout history in exchange? Why is Satan more important than all of us?
If Jesus is God, and based on John 3:17 and 3:18 we must acknowledge His sacrifice for us–wouldn’t it make sense to explain just what sacrifice was actually made? I don’t see one. He knew the end result, so it’s like playing cards and rigging them to win. The only one who wins here, IS God. The rest of us lose, for eternity???
Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son for God, before God decided to sacrifice his son for us. Why would He test Abraham so, unless he was deciding whether or not we were worth the sacrifice of his son?
At this point, the bible shows so many contradictions to the nature of God, in Gods’ actions–that I wonder if He is either misrepresented or simply not real.
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Many Many good questions here…and it’s impossible to put together brief answers to them. Books have been written on these things.
But the bottom line seems to be that you wonder why God allows suffering as this seems contrary to an “All Loving God”. I wish I had a good theological answer for you…but the best I can do is to share my own personal experience and perspective.
Through the sufferings I have endured I have learned more about Love than I could ever have learned in any other way. I’ve learned about patience, forbearance, service, kindness through taking care of my wife - ill with Alzheimer’s. I’ve learned about how God has been slowly and quietly teaching me these things - and I have come to realize - after 50 plus years - how he has been there with me all along, even when I did not feel Him and He seemed not to answer me.

I hope that we can begin to talk about these things and get to know one another better and hopefully give you some good things to contemplate.

Peace
James
 
missluckie26 said:
I’ve posed these questions to ministers and gotten nothing but silence in return. I’d appreciate it if anyone had any insight as to what the bible says in response to my questions… I’m not catholic, but I see catholics as the authority on well-examined biblical issues. If there are valid answers to my questions, I’m open to knowing the answers that God has. I’ve asked him these same questions and gotten no answers… Please answer me I’m not picking a fight, I truly want to know what God says on the matter…

I am re-examining my entire spirituality right now. If there is a God, I don’t want to know him anymore. Mainly, because I’ve come through a big storm and now that I’m in the calm, I look back wonder just what the point of it all was, and where was God in it? My friends’ wrist was slit when he was an innocent, by his own father. Why? Babies are put in microwaves, my other friend fell off a horse and now can’t move her body. My moms’ client was born to suffer Horribly, day and night from birth? I myself sat there, in a hospital bed, begging and crying for Him to heal me when the evangelists said that someone with my disease was getting cured at that very moment. Then they asked for money. I honestly believed I was cured, before it was confirmed I was not, and was left not at the mercy of God but the mercy of men, who were equally as cruel in their treatment of me. Still, I held my faith throughout the entirety of my illness–my own father anointed me with oil on my forehead and that same day I ended up hospitalized for a month, part of that time in the ICU sufferring to the max. I know there’s those who suffer way worse, every day of their lives… At this point, the bible shows so many contradictions to the nature of God, in Gods’ actions–that I wonder if He is either misrepresented or simply not real.
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MissLuckie,

I know of no one that could have endured as much suffering as you portray here. I could tell you of people that I know that have died and I miss them. I have seen people die from gunshot wounds, knife wounds, babies die from accidents, drug overdose, suicide, and one of the most poignant memories I have is harvesting organs from a 5 year old, a memory that stays with me to this day…and none of these memories are anything compared to what you share here…

I could not possibly know how you feel, I could not possibly know how you think…but I do know that what you have asked I have asked before…and the only plausible explanation I have found is an explanation that leaves me wondering and this is the best I have to offer you…when things make no sense to me I read this now and again…and I ask you to join me in reading and reflecting…it is the best thing yet I have read…it may shed light, it may not…but for me this is the best explanation I have found concerning the suffering you experienced and the suffering you describe…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, TO THE PRIESTS,
TO THE RELIGIOUS FAMILIES
AND TO THE FAITHFUL
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE CHRISTIAN MEANING
OF HUMAN SUFFERING
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Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate and dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
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I
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INTRODUCTION
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  1. Declaring the power of salvific suffering, the Apostle Paul says: “In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church”(1).
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These words seem to be found at the end of the long road that winds through the suffering which forms part of the history of man and which is illuminated by the Word of God. These words have as it were the value of a final discovery, which is accompanied by joy. For this reason Saint Paul writes: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake”(2). The joy comes from the discovery of the meaning of suffering, and this discovery, even if it is most personally shared in by Paul of Tarsus who wrote these words, is at the same time valid for others. **The Apostle shares his own discovery and rejoices in it because of all those whom it can help—just as it helped him—to understand the salvific meaning of suffering. **
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Miss Luckie, yours is an extremely powerful first post cutting right to the core of all belief.

You are giving the cry of Job. Satan challenged God to afflict Job to shake his love of God. His challenge was that Job was only loyal as a fair weather friend. Job’s honorable response was no worse than Jesus last words on the cross … My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? Men tried to console Job but suggested he must have displeased God. God’s response to those men was who were they to judge Job. God’s response to Job was who are you to judge God. A good study of this book may be where you may find the key to your relief & consolation.

As a Pro-Life activist reading your post, I couldn’t help the feeling that this cry reflects the cry of the Holy Innocents. Even the story about the television episode of a lion eating the gazelle brings to mind the story by a Pro-Life radical who points to a video about people at a safari park where the family is in the car watching their dad being attacked by a lion outside the car. You don’t see what the family sees, but when you turn on the sound, you feel what the family feels without seeing. It was the idea of the silent scream. Citing the television show also conjured up visions of the early Christians devoured by lions.

We are told that Adam & Eve brought sin & hardship to mankind to be inherited until the end times. It is an eternity to us, but just a point of time in the scheme of eternal life. It is like the time it takes to get a vaccination shot in the grand scheme. It is a time to decide if we desire God, simply put. It is like an engagement period where man in the role of the bride is sizing up Jesus in the role of the groom based on his principles even in the face of hardship. The hardship seems arbitrary, as a necessary evil to establish a free will offering of obedience. After all, mankind has nothing to offer Jesus as an expression of our love except obedience. All other items are only accomplished under God’s power with the resources He gives us. If we are to become one flesh with Jesus, we must give Him our free will offering of obedience.

Not sure if this is even on target. It just some reflections that I had in reading your post.

God Bless You in your Quest.
 
wynnejj said:
Miss Luckie, yours is an extremely powerful first post cutting right to the core of all belief.

**You are giving the cry of Job. ** Satan challenged God to afflict Job to shake his love of God. His challenge was that Job was only loyal as a fair weather friend. Job’s honorable response was no worse than Jesus last words on the cross … My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? Men tried to console Job but suggested he must have displeased God. God’s response to those men was who were they to judge Job. God’s response to Job was who are you to judge God. A good study of this book may be where you may find the key to your relief & consolation.

As a Pro-Life activist reading your post, I couldn’t help the feeling that this cry reflects the cry of the Holy Innocents. Even the story about the television episode of a lion eating the gazelle brings to mind the story by a Pro-Life radical who points to a video about people at a safari park where the family is in the car watching their dad being attacked by a lion outside the car. You don’t see what the family sees, but when you turn on the sound, you feel what the family feels without seeing. It was the idea of the silent scream. Citing the television show also conjured up visions of the early Christians devoured by lions.

We are told that Adam & Eve brought sin & hardship to mankind to be inherited until the end times. It is an eternity to us, but just a point of time in the scheme of eternal life. It is like the time it takes to get a vaccination shot in the grand scheme. It is a time to decide if we desire God, simply put. It is like an engagement period where man in the role of the bride is sizing up Jesus in the role of the groom based on his principles even in the face of hardship. The hardship seems arbitrary, as a necessary evil to establish a free will offering of obedience. After all, mankind has nothing to offer Jesus as an expression of our love except obedience. All other items are only accomplished under God’s power with the resources He gives us. If we are to become one flesh with Jesus, we must give Him our free will offering of obedience.

Not sure if this is even on target. It just some reflections that I had in reading your post.

God Bless You in your Quest.
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Wynn,

I would use caution in referencing the “cry of Job”…the entire story is about Job as a faithful servant. I mean no disrespect for the OP however these statements are not the cry of a faithful servant. There is no suggestion that someone is being tested in their fidelity. These are questions related to…
I am re-examining my entire spirituality right now. If there is a God, I don’t want to know him anymore.
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The OP has negative thoughts about God…
If Jesus is God, and based on John 3:17 and 3:18 we must acknowledge His sacrifice for us–wouldn’t it make sense to explain just what sacrifice was actually made? I don’t see one. He knew the end result, so it’s like playing cards and rigging them to win. The only one who wins here, IS God. The rest of us lose, for eternity???
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This is a question about what this Sacrifice on the cross means…in the context of suffering…
At this point, the bible shows so many contradictions to the nature of God, in Gods’ actions–that I wonder if He is either misrepresented or simply not real.
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This is a statement of doubt and concerns about is there a God? and other doubts that are not answered by suggesting Job…
 
Regardless, the story of Job is good for reflection to understand the response of even the faithful who in their pain are given to make statements such as …
Job 6:4. For the arrows of the Almighty pierce me, and my spirit drinks in their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me.
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The patience of Job seems to suggest a patient whose lost his patience but, managed to hang on to his faith … maybe, just barely. It is good to see his thinking as to why, even though imperfect and reproved by God.
 
wynnejj said:
Regardless, the story of Job is good for reflection to understand the response of even the faithful who in their pain are given to make statements such as …

The patience of Job seems to suggest a patient whose lost his patience but, managed to hang on to his faith … maybe, just barely. It is good to see his thinking as to why, even though imperfect and reproved by God.
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A priest once told me during Confession that regardless of what one may suffer, nothing compares to what suffering Jesus endured in his crucifixion. I am sorry if that answer sounds trite or doesn’t give much comfort. It wasn’t very comforting to me either at the time.😊
 
missluckie26 said:
I am re-examining my entire spirituality right now. If there is a God, I don’t want to know him anymore. Mainly, because I’ve come through a big storm and now that I’m in the calm, I look back wonder just what the point of it all was, and where was God in it? At this point, the bible shows so many contradictions to the nature of God, in Gods’ actions–that I wonder if He is either misrepresented or simply not real.
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MissLuckie,

You have been relatively silent. Allow me to suggest a few things and ask a few questions.

Life has trials, tribulations, joys and wonders. You ask where was God in all of this? Is He real? Can’t say for sure, for you, because to believe, is something that goes beyond anyone telling you this or that. You can look at proofs of God and that may help but in the end you alone can answer this question.

Is there a God?

You may think for a moment as you reflect suppose there was no God? What would the purpose of life be? We live, we die, we are born, we care, we don’t care…all of this…what is it all about…?

I have no idea what you think…I can imagine all the suffering in my life, know that I have suffered, understand that some have suffered more, some have suffered less…and part of life is suffering.

We live on a planet. We live with others on this planet. We live in a Universe and believe it or not you are not alone in your plight of understanding.

Is there a God? You say you don’t want to know this God, if He is real. Imagine that if there was a God, what would that God be like…tell me what it is you believe that God of your imagination would be.🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
MissLuckie,

You have been relatively silent. Allow me to suggest a few things and ask a few questions.

Life has trials, tribulations, joys and wonders. You ask where was God in all of this? Is He real? Can’t say for sure, for you, because to believe, is something that goes beyond anyone telling you this or that. You can look at proofs of God and that may help but in the end you alone can answer this question.

Is there a God?

You may think for a moment as you reflect suppose there was no God? What would the purpose of life be? We live, we die, we are born, we care, we don’t care…all of this…what is it all about…?

I have no idea what you think…I can imagine all the suffering in my life, know that I have suffered, understand that some have suffered more, some have suffered less…and part of life is suffering.

We live on a planet. We live with others on this planet. We live in a Universe and believe it or not you are not alone in your plight of understanding.

Is there a God? You say you don’t want to know this God, if He is real. Imagine that if there was a God, what would that God be like…tell me what it is you believe that God of your imagination would be.🙂
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I used to imagine that God didn’t give a rip about humanity. Of course he would “bless” certain people with good things, much like some people win lots of money in lotteries, tv game shows, etc. The purpose was to lead people on to make them think they too would have a chance to be so “blessed” That God had some sort of agenda up his sleeve that he wasn’t revealing. That he was sitting on a cloud with a giant fly-swatter just waiting for me to screw up so he could squash me like a bug. But then I converted to Catholicism and Sunday after Sunday I saw Jesus, torn, beaten, bloody hanging from the Crucifix. and I was taught that bloody figure on the cross was GOD in human form and that he willingly suffered all that torture for each person on earth (including ME) and as such he knew what it was to be scorned, made fun of, treated like an outcast, to suffer pain. He even knew what it was like to be a helpless infant who had to have poopy diapers changed, to have to learn to talk, walk, feed himself, etc. He was born, not in a sterile environment of a hospital, but in a filthy stall with farm animals around. Finally to learn what it was to die violently. That is what made God real to me. I even learned the truth about Santa. That the jolly fat man in a sleigh was in fact a Bishop in 4th century Turkey named Nicholas of Myra who anonymously rescued the daughters of a poor man from slavery by providing them with the money to pay off the person who intended to make them slaves.
 
LegoGE1947 said:
I used to imagine that God didn’t give a rip about humanity. Of course he would “bless” certain people with good things, much like some people win lots of money in lotteries, tv game shows, etc. The purpose was to lead people on to make them think they too would have a chance to be so “blessed” That God had some sort of agenda up his sleeve that he wasn’t revealing. That he was sitting on a cloud with a giant fly-swatter just waiting for me to screw up so he could squash me like a bug. But then I converted to Catholicism and Sunday after Sunday I **saw Jesus, torn, beaten, bloody hanging from the Crucifix. and I was taught that bloody figure on the cross was GOD in human form and that he willingly suffered all that torture for each person on earth (including ME) and as such he knew what it was to be scorned, made fun of, treated like an outcast, to suffer pain. He even knew what it was like to be a helpless infant who had to have poopy diapers changed, to have to learn to talk, walk, feed himself, etc. He was born, not in a sterile environment of a hospital, but in a filthy stall with farm animals around. Finally to learn **what it was to die violently. **That is what made God real to me. **I even learned the truth about Santa. That the jolly fat man in a sleigh was in fact a Bishop in 4th century Turkey named Nicholas of Myra who anonymously rescued the daughters of a poor man from slavery by providing them with the money to pay off the person who intended to make them slaves.
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Lego,

This is an example of what our minds can do. We have two sources of information in our head, stored and imagined. We have the ability to reason and believe and that would be considered Faith/Reason.

People change and the only way to change is to change the way we think.

As we believe and think so we act. To change how we act we change how we think and believe and here you provide that example. The OP has questions.
I’ve posed these questions to ministers and gotten nothing but silence in return. I’d appreciate it if anyone had any insight as to what the bible says in response to my questions… I’m not catholic, but I see catholics as the authority on well-examined biblical issues. If there are valid answers to my questions, I’m open to knowing the answers that God has. I’ve asked him these same questions and gotten no answers… Please answer me I’m not picking a fight, I truly want to know what God says on the matter…
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My first response to the OP as the question is what the Bible shows suggesting that Catholics have been able to respond on Biblical issues looking for valid answers…what does God say on the matter…

We have eyes, ears, and the ability to taste, touch and smell and that is how we experience the world. The vast amount of learning we do is through sight and hearing for the most part and here you are exemplary in showing what you saw caused you to learn. For the OP I would say that what you see has meaning and that meaning is provided by you and what it is you think and believe as you apply meaning will cause you to think and believe as you have or as Leggo has.

The OP has yet to respond. You and others have mirrored what John Paul II says in the Meaning of Suffering and I will post it again…🙂

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…oloris_en.html
APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, TO THE PRIESTS,
TO THE RELIGIOUS FAMILIES
AND TO THE FAITHFUL
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE CHRISTIAN MEANING
OF HUMAN SUFFERING
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My first thought when I read this is that one cannot rationally explain that which is irrational. Not a possibility although many have and will try.
My second thought was the contentions are irrational because they immediately place a division between the poster and God as totally seperate beings. If there is complete seperation between the poster and God, in other words, He is over there and I am over here, we are not working as one together. When that happens, everything becomes irrational and immoral.
A better way to approach the questions is through Christ Himself. You are, quite rightly, the hands and feet and mouth of Jesus. Who Himself suffered greatly. But if the hands, feet and mouth are refusing to be a part of the body as a whole, the body will not function at all- it becomes paraplegic.
The answers to all the questions posed are in unity with the workings of God in Christ. Instead of seeking complete seperation, seek the unifying factors instead. Then, there is nothing irrational in the questions and the questions no longer exist.
 
CopticChristian said:
Lego,

This is an example of what our minds can do. We have two sources of information in our head, stored and imagined. We have the ability to reason and believe and that would be considered Faith/Reason.

People change and the only way to change is to change the way we think.

As we believe and think so we act. To change how we act we change how we think and believe and here you provide that example. The OP has questions.

My first response to the OP as the question is what the Bible shows suggesting that Catholics have been able to respond on Biblical issues looking for valid answers…what does God say on the matter…

We have eyes, ears, and the ability to taste, touch and smell and that is how we experience the world. The vast amount of learning we do is through sight and hearing for the most part and here you are exemplary in showing what you saw caused you to learn. For the OP I would say that what you see has meaning and that meaning is provided by you and what it is you think and believe as you apply meaning will cause you to think and believe as you have or as Leggo has.

The OP has yet to respond. You and others have mirrored what John Paul II says in the Meaning of Suffering and I will post it again…🙂

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…oloris_en.html
Click to expand...
Coptic - your link goes to the Vatican but not to the specific text…
 
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