Moral Beginnings

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Where are the moral beginnings? In a prostitute that has many partners and sells her body for sex (OR) In a homosexual within a monogamous relationship for life?

 

[JRKH]

Confused on what you are asking??? (Scratches head)…

Peace
James

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Confused on what you are asking??? (Scratches head)…

Peace
James

You don’t see an act of morality from one example over another? You don’t see that a monogamous homosexual relationship is an act of morality?

You see a Christian will accept a prostitute as the greater moral situation before they accept a homosexual as one. That’s my point of the contrast.

But if an act of morality is introduced into the situation then it becomes apparent that what was once thought as sin is thereso discredited due to the presence of the moral fiber within the act.

Is not gay marriage the plausible choice of bringing morality to a situation which is deemed sinful by nature? Marriage promotes monogamy and family values, would it not be logical to introduce such ideas into a homosexual lifestyle; and therefore legalize gay marriage?

 

[JRKH]

You don’t see an act of morality from one example over another? You don’t see that a monogamous homosexual relationship is an act of morality?

Frankly - no I don’t.

You see a Christian will accept a prostitute as the greater moral situation before they accept a homosexual as one. That’s my point of the contrast.

hhhmmmm…Since both are grievous sin I do not differentiate…Perhaps others do, but I do not.

But if an act of morality is introduced into the situation then it becomes apparent that what was once thought as sin is thereso discredited due to the presence of the moral fiber within the act.

A spoon of sugar put into a pot of deadly poison does not make the poison less deadly.
Adding water to dilute the poison might be beneficial…but it would take a LOT of water in order to dilute sufficiently…
In the same way, introducing some small modicum of “morality” into a grievously sinful situation does little or nothing to make the sin less deadly.

Is not gay marriage the plausible choice of bringing morality to a situation which is deemed sinful by nature? Marriage promotes monogamy and family values, would it not be logical to introduce such ideas into a homosexual lifestyle; and therefore legalize gay marriage?

No -
Any morality introduced by the legalization of homosexual marriage would necessarily be the societal morality, not Christian morality since the Church cannot embrace this sinful act and provide teaching on it…Other than for it being sinful. Societal morality on the other hand, may or may not promote morality and “family values” as we see these things.
So spiritually I see no advantage to what you suggest.

Peace
James

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Frankly - no I don’t.

hhhmmmm…Since both are grievous sin I do not differentiate…Perhaps others do, but I do not.

A spoon of sugar put into a pot of deadly poison does not make the poison less deadly.
Adding water to dilute the poison might be beneficial…but it would take a LOT of water in order to dilute sufficiently…
In the same way, introducing some small modicum of “morality” into a grievously sinful situation does little or nothing to make the sin less deadly.

No -
Any morality introduced by the legalization of homosexual marriage would necessarily be the societal morality, not Christian morality since the Church cannot embrace this sinful act and provide teaching on it…Other than for it being sinful. Societal morality on the other hand, may or may not promote morality and “family values” as we see these things.
So spiritually I see no advantage to what you suggest.

Peace
James

So you would prefer homosexuals having sex with many different partners (orgies and stuff) than you would homosexuals living in monogamous relationships? Everything is black and white with you isn’t it? If marriage brings a moral structure to a person’s life then why do you say that it is undesireable?

Homosexuality is a sin. Do you lust after women? Tell the truth. Your lust after women is a sin equal to that of homosexuality because you have committed adultry in your heart. But we don’t go around purging you from existence do we?

So you got the homosexual and you’re the adulterer. Both are grievous sins don’t you agree?

 

[JRKH]

So you would prefer homosexuals having sex with many different partners (orgies and stuff) than you would homosexuals living in monogamous relationships?

I have no preference in this matter other than to see as many people reach heaven as possible.

Everything is black and white with you isn’t it?

It depends…

If marriage brings a moral structure to a person’s life then why do you say that it is undesirable?

I have no problem at all with people getting married and if marriage brings “moral structure” to a person I am all for it.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Yes it is…

Do you lust after women?

No I do not

Tell the truth.

I did.

Your lust after women is a sin equal to that of homosexuality because you have committed adultery in your heart. But we don’t go around purging you from existence do we?

Since I do not lust after women, the point is moot.
However…
I do agree that adultery and homosexuality are both grave sins.
That said…
Who is talking about “purging” anyone from “existence”?

Peace
James

 

[jochoa]

Where are the moral beginnings? In a prostitute that has many partners and sells her body for sex (OR) In a homosexual within a monogamous relationship for life?

The moral beginnings in any living being with the ability to reason is the purpose of living.

 

[cap76]

Homosexuality is a sin. Do you lust after women? Tell the truth. Your lust after women is a sin equal to that of homosexuality because you have committed adultry in your heart. But we don’t go around purging you from existence do we?

I sin against God in many ways both in heart and deed. However, the goodness of God leads me to repentance because He has made many promises to sinners in His Gospel such as, “if you confess your sin He will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.”

Therefore, I confess my sin to Him out of hope that He will carry out this promise and grant me greater strength against temptation. I personally know of homosexuals who recognize their lifestyle, clearly spelled out by the Word of God, as sin and are equally motivated to repent, hoping in these same promises.

Let’s be careful not to justify the acts of men by human courts, but judge them according to God’s judgment.

 

[themonk86]

You don’t see an act of morality from one example over another? You don’t see that a monogamous homosexual relationship is an act of morality?

No because they both are committing a grave sin regardless if the homosexual is in a committed monogamous relationship. It’s kind of like seeing two terminally ill patients and asking which one is more terminally ill. It really doesn’t matter because they are both terminally ill.

You see a Christian will accept a prostitute as the greater moral situation before they accept a homosexual as one. That’s my point of the contrast.

I don’t due to the same reasons I stated above.

But if an act of morality is introduced into the situation then it becomes apparent that what was once thought as sin is thereso discredited due to the presence of the moral fiber within the act.

Just because I introduce some sort of morality to my sin doesn’t make the sin okay or moral. Thats like saying its okay for me to lust after another women… as long as it’s my wife, and since I’m only lust after her than it’s okay. I would say, no it’s stilll wrong because I’m making her an object for my selfishness as well de-valuing her as a person who is made in the image and likeness of God. Also I’ve never heard or read the Church teach that a sin becomes okay or moral just because you introduce some moral fiber to it.

Is not gay marriage the plausible choice of bringing morality to a situation which is deemed sinful by nature? Marriage promotes monogamy and family values, would it not be logical to introduce such ideas into a homosexual lifestyle; and therefore legalize gay marriage?

No again. The correct choice is for both the prostitute and the homosexual to stop doing the sin and to repent. And as you correctly pointed out, marriage should promote monogamy and family values, but as an equally important aspect, marriage has a fecundity that only a man and a woman can produce. Homosexuals can’t do that and that’s partly what makes homosexual acts gravely sinful, and also why two men or two women can’t marry or truly call their union a marriage.

 

[Abnormality]

You don’t see an act of morality from one example over another? You don’t see that a monogamous homosexual relationship is an act of morality?

You see a Christian will accept a prostitute as the greater moral situation before they accept a homosexual as one. That’s my point of the contrast.

But if an act of morality is introduced into the situation then it becomes apparent that what was once thought as sin is thereso discredited due to the presence of the moral fiber within the act.

Is not gay marriage the plausible choice of bringing morality to a situation which is deemed sinful by nature? Marriage promotes monogamy and family values, would it not be logical to introduce such ideas into a homosexual lifestyle; and therefore legalize gay marriage?

Hello sacred heart

I kind of get what you are saying. I think a homosexual marriage has more morality in it than the life of a prostitute; because while the act itself may be wrong, there are still virtues involved like commitment. I think that should be obvious to anybody that doesn’t hate gay people.

But that in itself does not mean that a gay marriage is a real marriage; at least not in the same sense that Catholics think of marriage. Personally i don’t believe that state marriage is anything more than a document giving legal rights to the individuals involved.

I have never really understood why Christians get upset about gay marriage, because state marriage and Christian Marriage is clearly not the same thing.

 

[Abnormality]

Since I do not lust after women, the point is moot.

Wow, do you live in a monastery?

 

[Abnormality]

So you would prefer homosexuals having sex with many different partners (orgies and stuff) than you would homosexuals living in monogamous relationships?

If those were the only two choices, then i agree that gay marriage would be the lesser of two evils. However, chastity or marriage to the opposite sex is an option.

 

[JRKH]

Wow, do you live in a monastery?

No - I am happily married to one woman and I desire no other.

I think that it is important to point out that the question I was asked is, “Do you lust after women?” (present tense). If the question were asked, have you ever lusted after women (past tense)…the answer would most certainly have been different. Certainly in my younger days and my time away from the Church, I committed many sins and lusting was surely among them.
But the question asked was in the present tense, and so I answered honestly…no I do not.

Contrary to popular belief it IS possible to live in the world, see other women, even be aware of their beauty, and still not “lust” after them.
In truth, I have too much respect for women to go “lusting after them”.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Hello sacred heart

I kind of get what you are saying. I think a homosexual marriage has more morality in it than the life of a prostitute; because while the act itself may be wrong, there are still virtues involved like commitment. I think that should be obvious to anybody that doesn’t hate gay people.

But that in itself does not mean that a gay marriage is a real marriage; at least not in the same sense that Catholics think of marriage. Personally i don’t believe that state marriage is anything more than a document giving legal rights to the individuals involved.

I have never really understood why Christians get upset about gay marriage, because state marriage and Christian Marriage is clearly not the same thing.

Partly it is a matter of terminology. The Church does not wish the idea of Chrisitan marriage to become confused.
If the civil aspect (which is really more akin to contract law than spiritual commitment) had a different name there might be less concern. The term “domestic partnership” would seem adequate for any civil aspects.

Peace
James

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I have no preference in this matter other than to see as many people reach heaven as possible.

It depends…

I have no problem at all with people getting married and if marriage brings “moral structure” to a person I am all for it.

Yes it is…

No I do not

I did.

Since I do not lust after women, the point is moot.
However…
I do agree that adultery and homosexuality are both grave sins.
That said…
Who is talking about “purging” anyone from “existence”?

Peace
James

You’re not attracted to women at all? Lust and sexuality go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other. I’m supposed to believe that you are the “bless’d virgin”? I mean, you’re an androgenous being because heterosexuals feel lust within a sexual existance? You’ve never felt lust in your life? I think you’re lying. So you have committed adultry in your heart, a sin as grave as homosexuality itself.

I don’t know where heterosexuals get off saying homosexuality is a sin because lust is involved within both; and lust is the sin, common to both. Do you, as a heterosexual, say your lust is more pure than a homosexuals? It’s equal ground. It’s an equal sin. The lust in one is as impure as the lust in the other. What are you going to say to God about your sin of lust: “…But I was heterosexual.”

Do you think he is going to judge one sexuality harsher than the other when the sin is the same?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

The moral beginnings in any living being with the ability to reason is the purpose of living.

Yes, and there is morality in a homosexual couple living a monogamous life.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I sin against God in many ways both in heart and deed. However, the goodness of God leads me to repentance because He has made many promises to sinners in His Gospel such as, “if you confess your sin He will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.”

Therefore, I confess my sin to Him out of hope that He will carry out this promise and grant me greater strength against temptation. I personally know of homosexuals who recognize their lifestyle, clearly spelled out by the Word of God, as sin and are equally motivated to repent, hoping in these same promises.

Let’s be careful not to justify the acts of men by human courts, but judge them according to God’s judgment.

But do you continually lust after the opposite sex? What good is repentance if you don’t really mean it and fall right back into your sin? I thought through your repentance you were to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, yet, you fall back to lust.

The same is with a homosexual. Perhaps they repent but fall back to lust. I would think that you would give them the same consideration of mercy that you would want for yourself. You can say that homosexuality is a sin but so isn’t heterosexuality, a sin. It is the same sin.

 

[jochoa]

Yes, and there is morality in a homosexual couple living a monogamous life.

I agree. The question is now: What is the purpose of living?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

No because they both are committing a grave sin regardless if the homosexual is in a committed monogamous relationship. It’s kind of like seeing two terminally ill patients and asking which one is more terminally ill. It really doesn’t matter because they are both terminally ill.

I don’t due to the same reasons I stated above.

Just because I introduce some sort of morality to my sin doesn’t make the sin okay or moral. Thats like saying its okay for me to lust after another women… as long as it’s my wife, and since I’m only lust after her than it’s okay. I would say, no it’s stilll wrong because I’m making her an object for my selfishness as well de-valuing her as a person who is made in the image and likeness of God. Also I’ve never heard or read the Church teach that a sin becomes okay or moral just because you introduce some moral fiber to it.

No again. The correct choice is for both the prostitute and the homosexual to stop doing the sin and to repent. And as you correctly pointed out, marriage should promote monogamy and family values, but as an equally important aspect, marriage has a fecundity that only a man and a woman can produce. Homosexuals can’t do that and that’s partly what makes homosexual acts gravely sinful, and also why two men or two women can’t marry or truly call their union a marriage.

Introducing morality into any situation is a good thing. Even if it is in the midst of corruption and evil. The good makes the evil good. The presence of goodness enlightens the world. The presence of goodness; as in a monogamous relationship between homosexuals enlightens homosexuality.

Would you rather have utter perversion between homosexuals or would you rather have loving relationships between them? The moral beginning is there in the act of marriage, a monogamous life between gays. It starts there. There will always be homosexuals. It is a natural human condition to want to be gay. It doesn’t go against nature. It can begin when a child is born…

I’ve known children throughout my life who you could point your finger at and say that child is gay. And later in life it turned out the child was gay. I’ve known transgendered children who wanted to be the opposite sex at an early age; and it turned out later in life they got a sex operation.

A child has no real sexuality. But if kids 5 years old are gay then it must be a natural condition to human existence.

Monagomy is a moral act regardless if it committed by a heterosexual or a homosexual. You act like homosexuals can do no good and that is just plain ignorance.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Hello sacred heart

I kind of get what you are saying. I think a homosexual marriage has more morality in it than the life of a prostitute; because while the act itself may be wrong, there are still virtues involved like commitment. I think that should be obvious to anybody that doesn’t hate gay people.

But that in itself does not mean that a gay marriage is a real marriage; at least not in the same sense that Catholics think of marriage. Personally i don’t believe that state marriage is anything more than a document giving legal rights to the individuals involved.

I have never really understood why Christians get upset about gay marriage, because state marriage and Christian Marriage is clearly not the same thing.

Thank you. The Church recognizes all marriages as long as they are between man and woman. Just a word of advice. Don’t put yourself in the judgment seat too quickly. The same things that exist in Christian marriage, exist in all marriages–that’s what matters. Not who it is done in front of or before; but it is the relationship between two people–that is what marriage is all about. Everything else is just for show.