Moral Behavior

[atheistgirl]

A lot of threads that touch on atheism invariably touch on morals and morality, and the accusation is usually something along the lines that the morality of atheists is relative, as we do not defer or refer to an absolute authority on the matter.
I’ve been thinking about this - so let me couch my question like this:
What is the difference between the fact that you dont steal because you have a commandment not to, and I dont steal because it is wrong.
What is the difference between the fact that you dont kill because you have a commandment that says you shouldnt, and the fact I dont kill out of respect for all human life - this includes by the way the unborn, and I am also opposed to the death penalty - something not all churches say.
What is the difference between the fact you dont tell lies because you have been commanded not to, and I dont tell lies because I love the truth and hate lies because you can never know where you are with lies and liars.
Is there a difference?
As a believer, is your morality somehow superior to mine?
Can you hold a moral view that I cant by virtue of the fact that you say your morality is absolute and mine you claim is relative?
I ask out of a heady mixture of interest, curiosity and ignorance and hope the way Ive posed the questions are charitable and do not cause anyone any offense.

Sarah x

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

And WHY is it “wrong to steal”? Just because those who’ve seized the reigns of power in society have declared it “wrong” and passed laws making it a crime. What if they passed a law stating it’s OK to steal or even kill if you are stronger than your victim, that the powerful should rule? Would it then be “not wrong”? As Dostoyevsky said, “Anything is permissible if there is no God.”

 

[Cato_Minor]

You might also direct people to investigate the Euthyphro dilemma.

 

[mark_a]

Good stuff!!

I dont tell lies because I love the truth and hate lies because you can never know where you are with lies and liars.
Is there a difference?

In the words of Pontius Pilate “What is truth?”

As a believer, is your morality somehow superior to mine?

Generally speaking, differences in morality for most folks boils down to sexual morality because most folks are immediately able to see that stealing and murder are wrong.

Can you hold a moral view that I cant by virtue of the fact that you say your morality is absolute and mine you claim is relative?

In an absolute sense? I don’t know. In a practical sense, Cathlic morality is generally not stumbled upon and must be taught by someone and absorbed by another.

 

[atheistgirl]

And WHY is it “wrong to steal”? Just because those who’ve seized the reigns of power in society have declared it “wrong” and passed laws making it a crime. What if they passed a law stating it’s OK to steal or even kill if you are stronger than your victim, that the powerful should rule? Would it then be “not wrong”? As Dostoyevsky said, “Anything is permissible if there is no God.”

But that’s my point. Believers have a commandment that says it is wrong to steal. But is anyone suggesting that the people of the desert, up until Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments, had no clue it was wrong to steal? Surely not.
We KNOW it is wrong to steal, we know it innately. It’s part of our social evolution as a species.
No one could pass a civil law to say it’s ok to steal, because we KNOW it is not. Natural justice.
I think it’s interesting that you and I both have come to the same conclusions, but from very different paths.
That’s what’s sparked the question if your not stealing is somehow better than me not stealing, because you have a commandment.

Sarah x

 

[mark_a]

That’s what’s sparked the question if your not stealing is somehow better than me not stealing, because you have a commandment.

Sarah x

No, but Christians potentially have an eternal price to pay. Maybe we have more of an incentive to not steal??

 

[PowderBear]

What is the difference between the fact that you dont steal because you have a commandment not to, and I dont steal because it is wrong.
What is the difference between the fact that you dont kill because you have a commandment that says you shouldnt, and the fact I dont kill out of respect for all human life - this includes by the way the unborn, and I am also opposed to the death penalty - something not all churches say.
What is the difference between the fact you dont tell lies because you have been commanded not to, and I dont tell lies because I love the truth and hate lies because you can never know where you are with lies and liars.
Sarah x

Good thoughts-- But I don’t think the situation is quite that black-and-white. I have heard great priests say that the best way for Catholics to “follow a commandment” is *not *to do so out of a sense of “Oh, I’m commanded to do this-and-that, so I should do it because I’m told to,” but out of a sense of “I love the truth, and I understand the reasoning and truth behind this commandment, so I will do it for that reason.” So, it is not quite as divided as you are perceiving the situation 100% of the time. Yes, there are believers who just follow commandments because they need to be told what to do. One could say that we all need that from time to time. But there is a better route for a believer, which is to love and understand a law/commandment, and follow it because you are inspired to do so, not forced to or just blindly obeying.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

But that’s my point. Believers have a commandment that says it is wrong to steal. But is anyone suggesting that the people of the desert, up until Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments, had no clue it was wrong to steal? Surely not.
We KNOW it is wrong to steal, we know it innately. It’s part of our social evolution as a species.
No one could pass a civil law to say it’s ok to steal, because we KNOW it is not. Natural justice.
I think it’s interesting that you and I both have come to the same conclusions, but from very different paths.
That’s what’s sparked the question if your not stealing is somehow better than me not stealing, because you have a commandment.

Sarah x

You think every society felt it was wrong to steal? There have been thousands of societies, “rape and pillage” societies and many others throughout history where stealing was fine. In much of the middle east rape is looked at as the woman’s fault. If morals are based on what the society practices, you can have any moral imaginable.

 

[mark_a]

In much of the middle east rape is looked at as the woman’s fault.

An excellent point and much more revealing and pertinent to the thread than the “thou shalt not steal” argument.

 

[Robert_Sock]

A lot of threads that touch on atheism invariably touch on morals and morality, and the accusation is usually something along the lines that the morality of atheists is relative, as we do not defer or refer to an absolute authority on the matter.
I’ve been thinking about this - so let me couch my question like this:
What is the difference between the fact that you dont steal because you have a commandment not to, and I dont steal because it is wrong.
What is the difference between the fact that you dont kill because you have a commandment that says you shouldnt, and the fact I dont kill out of respect for all human life - this includes by the way the unborn, and I am also opposed to the death penalty - something not all churches say.
What is the difference between the fact you dont tell lies because you have been commanded not to, and I dont tell lies because I love the truth and hate lies because you can never know where you are with lies and liars.
Is there a difference?
As a believer, is your morality somehow superior to mine?
Can you hold a moral view that I cant by virtue of the fact that you say your morality is absolute and mine you claim is relative?
I ask out of a heady mixture of interest, curiosity and ignorance and hope the way Ive posed the questions are charitable and do not cause anyone any offense.

Sarah x

I think you are more righteous than most and not far from God!!!

I was born a Catholic, and fell away and became an atheist. But behold, certain events took place that drove me back to the Catholic Church. I believe it was all a spiritual journey and that I was never actually far from God. God was always in control!!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But that’s my point. Believers have a commandment that says it is wrong to steal. But is anyone suggesting that the people of the desert, up until Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments, had no clue it was wrong to steal? Surely not.
We KNOW it is wrong to steal, we know it innately. It’s part of our social evolution as a species.
No one could pass a civil law to say it’s ok to steal, because we KNOW it is not. Natural justice.
I think it’s interesting that you and I both have come to the same conclusions, but from very different paths.
That’s what’s sparked the question if your not stealing is somehow better than me not stealing, because you have a commandment.

Sarah x

Apples and oranges, hon.

Just how do you know that it is ‘part of our social evolution as a species’ that we ‘know’ it is wrong to steal? Where is your evidence?

Have you studied sociology at all? Studied ancient civilizations? Are you aware that not all societies consider it necessarily ‘wrong’ to steal? That some take pride in stealing? That some allow it against ‘other’ groups but not in their own? And that these groups are not necessarily ‘less evolved’ than our 21st century western society?

Is YOUR not stealing ‘better’ than ours because ours has passed into our society with the force of LAW (that is what a commandment is) but yours has somehow only seeped into your ‘own individual social evolution’ at a particular point in time, and could be completely different if you happened to live in a ‘different society’ than the US/West of the 21st century? What are the criteria you have for determining which of two positions is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ and how did that criteria arise? Have your criteria ever changed due to time or circumstance?

 

[fkjuliano]

You think every society felt it was wrong to steal? There have been thousands of societies, “rape and pillage” societies and many others throughout history where stealing was fine. In much of the middle east rape is looked at as the woman’s fault. If morals are based on what the society practices, you can have any moral imaginable.

Precisely. Take the Somali pirates, for instance. They don’t it consider it wrong to seize foreign vessels, kidnap the crews and extort millions of dollars in exchange for their lives, especially if the victims are not Muslim. In fact, I read that being a pirate is seen a “noble profession” in Somalia.

Also, I can say from personal experience that when I was atheist, I thought it would be just the coolest thing to score some big bucks by robbing a bank like in the movie “Heat”. Of course, I did no such thing out of a profound desire to avoid a lengthy term of incarceration, but there was no other reason, and without God there could be none logically.

But let me make it clear that God is not a deterrent to evil just by inspiring fear. Knowing that we have been created by Him who is all good leads us to believe that we are meant for good, and deliberately choosing evil, as in a career of crime, is something that is above all shameful.

I know this is off-topic, but I wonder if the OP has read some of the latest works defending the existence of God. Richard Dawkins and his ilk have promoted atheism more on the basis of sneering condescension than on dispassionate reason. It is, however, an intellectually lazy position, as the more we learn about science, especially the origins of the universe, the less tenable a spontaneous cosmos becomes.

 

[atheistgirl]

You think every society felt it was wrong to steal? There have been thousands of societies, “rape and pillage” societies and many others throughout history where stealing was fine. In much of the middle east rape is looked at as the woman’s fault. If morals are based on what the society practices, you can have any moral imaginable.

An excellent point and much more revealing and pertinent to the thread than the “thou shalt not steal” argument.

But isnt that PRECICELY what is mandated in the old books of the Bible and Koran? The raping and pillaging of your enemy, The taking of the women of other tribes as chattle. The stoning of a woman to death for adultry whille the man can pay a fine. The raping of a virgin girl before killing her as you cant kill a virgin in islam?
Arent most of these horrific behaviours and punishments actually madated in the old religious books?
Could it be that secular societies actually got the ideas from the religious writers?
I dont know and Im not suggesting they did - Im just exploring the idea.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Precisely. Take the Somali pirates, for instance. They don’t it consider it wrong to seize foreign vessels, kidnap the crews and extort millions of dollars in exchange for their lives, especially if the victims are not Muslim. In fact, I read that being a pirate is seen a “noble profession” in Somalia.

Much like bank robbers and highway men of old in all cutures were glamorised. Much like kids today look up to gangsters. But in a society where law and order has almost entirely broken down, these people will rise to the top, or at least take advantage.
Thats not the same thing as saying that each individual doesnt know in their heart what is right and wrong. They do. Even the most profoundly religious do - and thhe fact they are mandated from heaven doesnt seem to stop them from sinning either. Its human nature. Just as its human nature to know whats right and wrong as regards stealing.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Have your criteria ever changed due to time or circumstance?

No. In that way I suppose Im a bit of a fundamentalist To me, it’s always wrong to steal. It’s always wrong to take a human life. There was a time not all that long ago when our family was expanding and our disposable income was shrinking Not once ever would it even occur to us to steal anything or commit some kind of fraud. We just wouldnt be able to live with ourselves.

Sarah x

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Much like bank robbers and highway men of old in all cutures were glamorised. Much like kids today look up to gangsters. But in a society where law and order has almost entirely broken down, these people will rise to the top, or at least take advantage.
Thats not the same thing as saying that each individual doesnt know in their heart what is right and wrong. They do. Even the most profoundly religious do - and thhe fact they are mandated from heaven doesnt seem to stop them from sinning either. Its human nature. Just as its human nature to know whats right and wrong as regards stealing.

Sarah x

WHY is it human nature? Where will you find it written in the genetic code? Where is your evidence? Why should we accept that you say, "It was ‘glamorized’(regarding those who did wrong)? What of the many criminals (you can find examples just Googling) today, often young adults, who simply do not seem to know right from wrong? (Often called ‘amoral’). Where is your proof that a knowledge of right and wrong is ‘human nature’ and how do you explain that to one person or group something is ‘wrong’ and to another person or group it is 'right?'

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No. In that way I suppose Im a bit of a fundamentalist To me, it’s always wrong to steal. It’s always wrong to take a human life. There was a time not all that long ago when our family was expanding and our disposable income was shrinking Not once ever would it even occur to us to steal anything or commit some kind of fraud. We just wouldnt be able to live with ourselves.

Sarah x

But why, Sarah, should we accept that your experiences or beliefs are ‘correct’?

 

[atheistgirl]

Also, I can say from personal experience that when I was atheist, I thought it would be just the coolest thing to score some big bucks by robbing a bank like in the movie “Heat”. Of course, I did no such thing out of a profound desire to avoid a lengthy term of incarceration, but there was no other reason, and without God there could be none logically.

Who’s not had similar thoughts. Expecially on a bad day My reason for not going through would have simply been that it would have been wrong, plain and simple. Nothing to do with cell time at all.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

But why, Sarah, should we accept that your experiences or beliefs are ‘correct’?

Because they do not harm to my family, children, community and society, and we can demonstrate they actually do good. That’s good enough for me - and it doesnt require any further validation. We all know in our hearts what natural justice looks like and feels like. Thats why I think its interesting to explore if there is any difference to the above if done for my reasons, or done for religious reasons - or is the outcomes and benefits the same.

Sarah x

 

[Biedrik]

Because they do not harm to my family, children, community and society, and we can demonstrate they actually do good. That’s good enough for me - and it doesnt require any further validation. We all know in our hearts what natural justice looks like and feels like. Thats why I think its interesting to explore if there is any difference to the above if done for my reasons, or done for religious reasons - or is the outcomes and benefits the same.

Sarah x

Here’s some questions. First, why does something not harming others make it good, or at least neutral? Why is harm evil? Next, why does the feeling in your heart show or determine what is right or wrong? It is merely an emotion.