Moral choice with regard to unjust laws

[Appleby]

I think that is what most Catholics with conscience will be forced to do. But think about it, this would mean that all the pro-life doctors would be forced to leave the medical profession, find a job in another field and fight the good fight from the outside. They would be marginalized, not part of the AMA or any of the boards and the fight would be that much harder.

So where did Jesus promise us keeping the faith would not be hard?

I have heard of Catholic adoption agencies who closed down when the government forced them to accept gay couples as potential adoptive parents.

Heck, even Wal-Mart closed stores here in Kanukistan when the Quebec government attempted to force them to unionize.

Yes, this would be upsetting to people who were used to having Catholic doctors and nurses who believe as we believe. But the best way to enforce our determination to overturn this kind of unjust law is the visible, individual and collective determination to sacrifice personally. A doctor who would renounce ob/gyn and go into geriatric care, for example, or a nurse who would rather be a companion to the disabled in private practice than be forced to recommend birth control and abortion – or participate on them – could go a long way to wake people up that we do not intend to wallpaper over the ugliness of this kind of coercion – and the fact that people cannot be enslaved without their consent.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Hey, but, ah…what about our taxes? Because, ahm…Don’t they go towards abortions both at home, and now, abroad aswell? I mean…when your own government is sponsoring state sanctioned murders…Would it have been at all permissible for a German citizen to pay taxes to the Nazi regime, knowing that some of his money would go towards fueling the gas chambers?

I mean, gosh! More and more that “White devil” name slung at us from…every corner of the world seems more and more accurate.

 

[Appleby]

Hey, but, ah…what about our taxes? Because, ahm…Don’t they go towards abortions both at home, and now, abroad aswell? I mean…when your own government is sponsoring state sanctioned murders…Would it have been at all permissible for a German citizen to pay taxes to the Nazi regime, knowing that some of his money would go towards fueling the gas chambers?

I mean, gosh! More and more that “White devil” name slung at us from…every corner of the world seems more and more accurate.

How positively Canadian. :shrug:What can you dooooooooooooooooo? is the Canadian National Anthem. Well, the second verse anyway; the first verse is Sorry.

A person who is determined not to pay taxes in a country where 50% of the population do not pay taxes would not have a hard time finding a way. But of course he or she would have to do something besides shrug and whine What Can You Doooooooooooooooo?

 

[Dtmccameron]

How positively Canadian.

uch:

 

[Corki]

So where did Jesus promise us keeping the faith would not be hard?

I have heard of Catholic adoption agencies who closed down when the government forced them to accept gay couples as potential adoptive parents.

Heck, even Wal-Mart closed stores here in Kanukistan when the Quebec government attempted to force them to unionize.

Yes, this would be upsetting to people who were used to having Catholic doctors and nurses who believe as we believe. But the best way to enforce our determination to overturn this kind of unjust law is the visible, individual and collective determination to sacrifice personally. A doctor who would renounce ob/gyn and go into geriatric care, for example, or a nurse who would rather be a companion to the disabled in private practice than be forced to recommend birth control and abortion – or participate on them – could go a long way to wake people up that we do not intend to wallpaper over the ugliness of this kind of coercion – and the fact that people cannot be enslaved without their consent.

No doubt. But I am amazed that so many Catholics are willing to step aside from whole professions without a fight. My own son wants to be a doctor. Based on your logic, should the conscience clauses be struck down, he should change his major, chose another career and start writing letters to Congress in hopes they will change something.

And again, it is one thing to speak of the sacrifice of individual doctors, which might be honorable. But we are speaking of sacrificing our children as well. Should all pro-lifers meekly step aside from medicine or even just from OB/GYN practices, all of our daughters will have medical care givers who are pro-abortion.

 

[Teelynn]

Absolutely! Should FOCA or extreme regulations regarding “conscience” issues come to pass, the answer is civil disobedience. Catholic hospitals must simply keep on doing what they are doing. (BTW, the stance of the head of the CHA has been greatly distorted. She (Sister Carol Keehan) has stated this:

Here is that link: chausa.org/Pub/MainNav/Newsroom/NewsReleases/2008/r081124.htm

Civil disobedience has been used before to great effect, and is, in my opinion, the only choice available. I certainly hope that, faced with the prospect of an ugly court battle, or of losing hospital services for about one-sixth of the country’s patients, reality would dawn.

Very well grounded post! Couldn’t agree more. Catholic hospitals MUST take the option of refusing to be cohorts in murder, WITHOUT closing their doors. I am praying that they will actually take a stance on this, if this conscience protection legislation comes to pass. It makes me wonder how far the administration has given this any thought? To close all Catholic hospitals would indeed be a health crisis of huge proportions.

 

[RobHom]

Do you people not understand that many people will not comprise their morals and integrity?? Damn…Chicken Little was right, the sky is falling!!

You know, I challenged someone to actually post the so called “conscience clause” and frankly I haven’t seen it yet. Are you actually so foolish as to believe that people with integrity and conscienses will just fold and do the devils will? How low do you have to scrape that you would believe that every other person on the planet might do what you would do?

I have yet to see anything even remotely allied or linked to a “conscience clause”, and so barring that…you all are just spitting in the wind…

Stop barking at the moon, and ante up FACTS!!

 

[Teelynn]

Just another thought to my last post…I am leary about the response of ALL Catholic hospitals. Would it depend on the diocese they are in how liberal they are? For instance, would they possibly close their labor and delivery department, but rent space to another hospital corporation that would comply and perform abortions? I guess there are many ways to skin a cat, but in my opinion that would be the “no backbone” way. No message sent there!

So dissapointed and shocked in some of our parishioners response to the FOCA postcard campaign we participated in lately. Most of course, signed cards but there were several that passed us up with a resounding “NO”. One of them was a nun.:bighanky:
You realize that there are “Catholics” out there that have the opposite view, guess you don’t expect them in your own parish. For this and other reasons, I don’t have a ton of confidence in the Catholic institutions in this country.

 

[RobHom]

And for all of you who are “sharia mongers” who want it one way and just one way, that being YOUR way…ooooooh, another law passed to overturn Roe v. Wade…take a minute or two and read Sister Carol’s comments off of the link posted above:

***As people of faith, the first thing we are called to do is redouble our efforts to be sure pregnant women do not see abortion as their only option.

Has our belief in their dignity and that of their unborn child led us to create easily accessible and high quality obstetrical care? Have we set up programs that help them with food stamps, housing, education and child care? Can they readily see that our belief in their dignity and their child’s dignity causes us to spend our time and treasure helping them not only bear a child but to raise that child in an environment worthy of a child of God?

Those who work in pregnancy crisis centers and post-abortion counseling centers continually report that so many women get abortions not because they are pro-choice but because they feel they have no choice.

Catholic health care, working with the Catholic community, local governments and others of goodwill, has developed in many areas wonderful programs that assist women and children. Now is the time to be sure we have effective programs in every community and that they are well known. How horrible it would be for a mother, who had an abortion because she thought she had no other option, to say “If only I had known.” ***

GEE, OH DUH>>>>>>> OK “Homer” are you beginning to catch the drift? It ain’t all about LAWS!! ITS ABOUT PEOPLE AND LIFE, AND BABIES!!! Not about whether or not you can get the political machine to do your bidding…

Shazaaaam, remove the excuses, alleviate the problems, and “voila’” …there is success.

 

[Teelynn]

Do you people not understand that many people will not comprise their morals and integrity?? Damn…Chicken Little was right, the sky is falling!!

You know, I challenged someone to actually post the so called “conscience clause” and frankly I haven’t seen it yet. Are you actually so foolish as to believe that people with integrity and conscienses will just fold and do the devils will? How low do you have to scrape that you would believe that every other person on the planet might do what you would do?

I have yet to see anything even remotely allied or linked to a “conscience clause”, and so barring that…you all are just spitting in the wind…

Stop barking at the moon, and ante up FACTS!!

Well, if I can refind the article that I read online last week I will post it. President Obama has indeed called for the conscience clause to be repealed. It is not yet enacted but it WILL be enacted within 30 days says he. He is giving 30 days for pros and cons to be heard, before signing into law. As soon as I find the article I will post the link. He has not said he will DEFINITELY sign into law, but you can take it to the bank…it’s on the table.

 

[elts1956]

No doubt. But I am amazed that so many Catholics are willing to step aside from whole professions without a fight. My own son wants to be a doctor. Based on your logic, should the conscience clauses be struck down, he should change his major, chose another career and start writing letters to Congress in hopes they will change something.

And again, it is one thing to speak of the sacrifice of individual doctors, which might be honorable. But we are speaking of sacrificing our children as well. Should all pro-lifers meekly step aside from medicine or even just from OB/GYN practices, all of our daughters will have medical care givers who are pro-abortion.

You might want to ask your son if he will be forced to learn how to do abortion procedures during his medical training. I know some states require this. We have gotten ourselves into this muddle. Now we have to find a way out.

 

[Corki]

You might want to ask your son if he will be forced to learn how to do abortion procedures during his medical training. I know some states require this. We have gotten ourselves into this muddle. Now we have to find a way out.

He isn’t that far yet. But you make a good point. In states that have this law (or attempted one) ALL medical students are forced to do this in order to graduate. It doesn’t matter if you want to go into geriatrics or Obstetrics.

 

[Teelynn]

Not sure if this is what you’re looking for RobHom but…

Here is one article:www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/27/conscience.rollback/

 

[Corki]

take a minute or two and read Sister Carol’s comments off of the link posted above:

***As people of faith, the first thing we are called to do is redouble our efforts to be sure pregnant women do not see abortion as their only option.

Has our belief in their dignity and that of their unborn child led us to create easily accessible and high quality obstetrical care? Have we set up programs that help them with food stamps, housing, education and child care? Can they readily see that our belief in their dignity and their child’s dignity causes us to spend our time and treasure helping them not only bear a child but to raise that child in an environment worthy of a child of God?

Those who work in pregnancy crisis centers and post-abortion counseling centers continually report that so many women get abortions not because they are pro-choice but because they feel they have no choice.

Catholic health care, working with the Catholic community, local governments and others of goodwill, has developed in many areas wonderful programs that assist women and children. Now is the time to be sure we have effective programs in every community and that they are well known. How horrible it would be for a mother, who had an abortion because she thought she had no other option, to say “If only I had known.” ***

Has anyone, here or elsewhere, stated or implied that we would NOT want to continue to assist mothers and babies just because we don’t want our Church to be forced to kill pre-born infants?

Sister’s comments in this context sound a lot like some rhetoric we heard last fall about being able to end abortion, even while at the same time enabling it and enshrining it as a right.

Of course, we want to provide good prenatal care, housing, food and education. Of course, we want every child raised with care and dignity. But doing that doesn’t absolve us of complicity if we are at the same time performing abortion in our hospitals.

 

[RobHom]

Well, if I can refind the article that I read online last week I will post it. President Obama has indeed called for the conscience clause to be repealed. It is not yet enacted but it WILL be enacted within 30 days says he. He is giving 30 days for pros and cons to be heard, before signing into law. As soon as I find the article I will post the link. He has not said he will DEFINITELY sign into law, but you can take it to the bank…it’s on the table.

Please do post it!! But lets not forget this fact: Congress can pass all the laws it wants, Presidents can sign all the documents they want, but in a REPUBLIC which operates on democratic principles that embraces a Constitution and a Bill of Rights, there is no law or Presidential Finding that is binding on any persons “conscience”…PERIOD!

Wow, he hasn’t said he will definitely sign it but its on the table…WHOO-HOO, lets burn the barns down, cut our throats, slaughter the cows and the children, and while we’re at it, hold a seance for Bo & Peep and see if we can still make it to the “mother ship”. Damn folks…I am sincerely glad that NONE of YOU went into combat with me… You’d have surrendered before the battle started!!

You are assuming that all Catholics and Catholic Hospitals with just roll over and show their bellies…a sign of surrender and submission…because someone has said this has come to pass…

Whatsamatter…the alternative is too demanding, I mean…afterall, other than blathering and blustering on internet forums…about the sanctity of life, and piping sunshine to the desert…actually doing something that requires something of you to prove your mettle is too demanding??? My, how special you are.

Go ahead, feed the brigades of lawyers and lobbyists who haven’t achieved anything but the fattening of their own purses…forget about actively engaging in social programs on a local level that might actually do some good. Hell’s fire, its so much easier to sit around and mouth words and beat your breast… PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!! Help a pregnant woman find comfort and safety to have her child without worry about where she is going to find the funds to buy diapers or formula or clothing or pay the rent. Yeah, give all your efforts and funds to some group with offices on Madison Avenue… and has high priced lawyers…

God help us… No, God forgive us our stupidity and vanity…

 

[RobHom]

Has anyone, here or elsewhere, stated or implied that we would NOT want to continue to assist mothers and babies just because we don’t want our Church to be forced to kill pre-born infants?

Yes, as a matter or fact I think that some here have. They have latched onto a “sharia-like” fundamentalist attitude that its “overturn Roe v. Wade” or nothing at all. Its almost as if…a child’s life is unimportant, and the only thing that counts is reversing a Supreme Court Decision…

Sister’s comments in this context sound a lot like some rhetoric we heard last fall about being able to end abortion, even while at the same time enabling it and enshrining it as a right.

NOT IN THE LEAST!! You need to focus on shedding that myopic viewpoint that you have embraced. There was absolutely nothing in the “Sister’s” comments that alluded to what you allege. I can come very close easily at surmising that you are more a part of the problem than the solution.

Of course, we want to provide good prenatal care, housing, food and education. Of course, we want every child raised with care and dignity. But doing that doesn’t absolve us of complicity if we are at the same time performing abortion in our hospitals.

“Jack-squat” hasn’t yet happened that would even begin to imply that abortions would be mandatory, much less happen in Catholic hospitals…and already, and already, and already…YOU have throw in the towel and have already made the judgment call and the gross assumption that all of the nurses, doctors, sisters, laity, and fathers that work in Catholic hospitals are going to violate their morals, integrity and conscienses and perform abortions…

Do me a favor…if there is ever a “civil war” in this country…volunteer to be on the other side, OK?

 

[RobHom]

Not sure if this is what you’re looking for RobHom but…

Here is one article:www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/27/conscience.rollback/

Read the article and see if you can ferret out the “double-speak”…

I’ll give you a “thought” to ponder…

If a US Soldier in combat is able to refuse an order to shoot and kill and unarmed prisoner even if a General so orders it (absent due process and a death sentence adjudicated properly) without repercussion, because said order under the UCMJ is “illegal”,(not to mention “IMMORAL”) then how can anyone even begin to believe that the government can order a Doctor or Nurse to murder an innocent child or take part in a procedure that causes death to an innocent child?

Or are you just afraid that some of these people will put their jobs and incomes ahead of the value of the life of an innocent child?

 

[CatholicLeft]

Please do post it!! But lets not forget this fact: Congress can pass all the laws it wants, Presidents can sign all the documents they want, but in a REPUBLIC which operates on democratic principles that embraces a Constitution and a Bill of Rights, there is no law or Presidential Finding that is binding on any persons “conscience”…PERIOD!

Wow, he hasn’t said he will definitely sign it but its on the table…WHOO-HOO, lets burn the barns down, cut our throats, slaughter the cows and the children, and while we’re at it, hold a seance for Bo & Peep and see if we can still make it to the “mother ship”. Damn folks…I am sincerely glad that NONE of YOU went into combat with me… You’d have surrendered before the battle started!!

You are assuming that all Catholics and Catholic Hospitals with just roll over and show their bellies…a sign of surrender and submission…because someone has said this has come to pass…

Whatsamatter…the alternative is too demanding, I mean…afterall, other than blathering and blustering on internet forums…about the sanctity of life, and piping sunshine to the desert…actually doing something that requires something of you to prove your mettle is too demanding??? My, how special you are.

Go ahead, feed the brigades of lawyers and lobbyists who haven’t achieved anything but the fattening of their own purses…forget about actively engaging in social programs on a local level that might actually do some good. Hell’s fire, its so much easier to sit around and mouth words and beat your breast… PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!! Help a pregnant woman find comfort and safety to have her child without worry about where she is going to find the funds to buy diapers or formula or clothing or pay the rent. Yeah, give all your efforts and funds to some group with offices on Madison Avenue… and has high priced lawyers…

God help us… No, God forgive us our stupidity and vanity…

AMEN!!!

 

[RobHom]

He isn’t that far yet. But you make a good point. In states that have this law (or attempted one) ALL medical students are forced to do this in order to graduate. It doesn’t matter if you want to go into geriatrics or Obstetrics.

Do you speak from experience, or from “conjecture”? While one may have to learn the mechanics of procedures…it is not always necessary to perform said procedure to pass a test. Its a lot like learning both sides of the creation/evolution thing…to pass a test then not worry about it later.

I think some of you spend a lot of time shoveling “hyperbole” and lose sight of facts and reality. Does your “cause” or what you perceive to be a cause hinge on “hyperbole” or substance?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

This poster, who is normally quite observant and who consistently makes statements that posts attitudes that reflect solid Catholic teachings in matters of faith and moral made this rather observant post.

It got me to thinking. Where is the point where we can no longer obey laws. Where is the point where we must break an unjust law? Where, if there is one, the point where we attempt to actually remove, or even overthrow a government, even our own, that is grossly unjust?

While a direct attack against American sovereignty is not appropriate (yet), I do believe we are bound not to obey an unjust law and to try to get it reversed.

Let me start with a limited, but critical, issue. President Obama want to remove the conscience clause from health care workers. The stated intent is to force health care workers, as well as Church sponsored hospitals and clinics to provide “family planning” services. Of course, the Catholic Church teaches that birth control is intrinsically evil but more than that, “family planning” is a euphemism for abortion.

What are the morally permissible responses?

For individuals:

• Submit to civil authority and obey the law.
• Obey the law but seek to overturn it through legal means.
• Quit your job and change careers to avoid violating the law.
• Withdraw from society and form or join a Catholic Community.
• Violate the law and face the consequences.
• Violate the law and flee to avoid the consequences.

For Church sponsored Hospitals and clinics:

• Submit to civil authority and obey the law.
• Obey the law but seek to overturn it.
• Sell hospitals and clinics to secular agencies.
• Close hospitals and clinics.
• Violate the law and face the consequences.
• Protect individual employees who violate the law (legal defense or even helping them go into hiding.)
• Help to found and fund Catholic communities so people can avoid conflict with the unjust law.

At what point does law and government become so oppressive that a revolution is justified? Does such a point actually exist?

this is a tough one. scripture says to be subject to the rulership. but I doubt God would send you to hell for refusing to serve hitler if you were living in germany in the 1930s.wicked. you wouldn’t be sinning if you resisted hitler, for example.