Moral choice with regard to unjust laws

[Highwayhound]

Catholics have an obligation to see that such laws are overturned

Ageed.

Highwayhound, you are not incorrect, but the point is that it isn’t going to stop here. It will be one law after another until the government has more or less taken over society. Forgive me if I sound paranoid, but imagine it being illegal to speak out against abortion. Does it really sound that unrealistic? *That *is when our very religion will be “under attack”, for lack of a better term. I would rather it didn’t come to that.

I have to admit to a very quick response to this poll. My first step would be to quit. Then I would see what steps to take next. I spoke out against abortion on Friday by taking part in the 40 Days for Life in Salem, Oregon. The hour was mostly tame. One fellow in a car considered his middle fingers worthy of display (I did not have time to tell him I see my own middle fingers every day - I was not impressed nor offended). This fellow also yelled, " I love ABORTION!! I love killing babies." Please pray for anyone like him.

Also, please pray for the one young lady that works at the abortion site. Her car was near where we were standing. She could not look at us. I had a smile ready as a smile is the first sign of God’s love. When she returned one of our group pointed out the rosary hanging from the rearview mirror of the worker’s car :nope: No judgement, just prayers.

At which point, the Catholic Hospitals will cease to be Catholic.

This would be unacceptable

Highwayhound,

It’s not just about making a living. Already practicing Catholics are practically shut out of the field of pharmacy in some states. Are we really ready to have the entire medical field devoid of any one who respects life and objects to abortion? Do we want all our future babies delivered by abortioninsts?

Thanks for the heads up to this concern. Which states?

Speaking as a former fetus I wish to state the medical fields are better for the presence of Christians.

God bless

 

[elts1956]

No doubt. But I am amazed that so many Catholics are willing to step aside from whole professions without a fight. My own son wants to be a doctor. Based on your logic, should the conscience clauses be struck down, he should change his major, chose another career and start writing letters to Congress in hopes they will change something.

And again, it is one thing to speak of the sacrifice of individual doctors, which might be honorable. But we are speaking of sacrificing our children as well. Should all pro-lifers meekly step aside from medicine or even just from OB/GYN practices, all of our daughters will have medical care givers who are pro-abortion.

And this is the result of over fifty percent of folks who call themselves catholic voting for bo. They DID NOT think beyond their own billfolds and purses.

 

[Teelynn]

Please do post it!! But lets not forget this fact: Congress can pass all the laws it wants, Presidents can sign all the documents they want, but in a REPUBLIC which operates on democratic principles that embraces a Constitution and a Bill of Rights, there is no law or Presidential Finding that is binding on any persons “conscience”…PERIOD!

Wow, he hasn’t said he will definitely sign it but its on the table…WHOO-HOO, lets burn the barns down, cut our throats, slaughter the cows and the children, and while we’re at it, hold a seance for Bo & Peep and see if we can still make it to the “mother ship”. Damn folks…I am sincerely glad that NONE of YOU went into combat with me… You’d have surrendered before the battle started!!

You are assuming that all Catholics and Catholic Hospitals with just roll over and show their bellies…a sign of surrender and submission…because someone has said this has come to pass…

Whatsamatter…the alternative is too demanding, I mean…afterall, other than blathering and blustering on internet forums…about the sanctity of life, and piping sunshine to the desert…actually doing something that requires something of you to prove your mettle is too demanding??? My, how special you are.

Go ahead, feed the brigades of lawyers and lobbyists who haven’t achieved anything but the fattening of their own purses…forget about actively engaging in social programs on a local level that might actually do some good. Hell’s fire, its so much easier to sit around and mouth words and beat your breast… PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!! Help a pregnant woman find comfort and safety to have her child without worry about where she is going to find the funds to buy diapers or formula or clothing or pay the rent. Yeah, give all your efforts and funds to some group with offices on Madison Avenue… and has high priced lawyers…

God help us… No, God forgive us our stupidity and vanity…

What are you talking about, surrendered? How do you know what the rest of us are doing or not doing? I as well as my parish community are very actively involved in helping poor women with their children and new babies, and those that are pregnant. What gall to insinuate that we are crying in our beer and not doing anything about the problem!!! I’m sure glad you know the rest of us so well that you know what we are lacking in!!! What are you doing about the problem by the way???

 

[Teelynn]

For those of you who might be under the false impression that all Catholic diocese will be faithful to Catholic Doctrine:

Click on “Obama’s Choice of Sebelius Heats up Pro Life Battle” and scroll down to the last paragraph…

catholicsagainstsebelius.org

SORRY, THIS LINK IS NOT WORKING , PROBABLY BECAUSE IT IS ON THIS SITE IN THE NEWS SECTION. JUST TYPE IT IN YOUR ADDRESS BAR, WILL TAKE YOU TO THE SAME PLACE, AND SCROLL DOWN

Thanks!

 

[Teelynn]

For those of you who are under the false impression that all Catholic Diocese will be faithful to Catholic Doctrine. If the link doesn’t work just type it in. Click on - OBAMA’S APPOINTMENT OF SEBELIUS HEATS UP PRO LIFE CAUSE, and scroll down to the last paragraph.

www.catholicsagainstsebelius.org

 

[Elizabeth502]

For those of you who are under the false impression that all Catholic Diocese will be faithful to Catholic Doctrine. If the link doesn’t work just type it in. Click on - OBAMA’S APPOINTMENT OF SEBELIUS HEATS UP PRO LIFE CAUSE, and scroll down to the last paragraph.

www.catholicsagainstsebelius.org

Link doesn’t work.

 

[mapleoak]

He isn’t that far yet. But you make a good point. In states that have this law (or attempted one) ALL medical students are forced to do this in order to graduate. It doesn’t matter if you want to go into geriatrics or Obstetrics.

Imagine that. Being required to learn how to kill people in order to get a license to help people.

 

[mapleoak]

RobHom,
Please refrain from the use of swear words. Not only is it irritating, but I believe the forum rules say something about it as well.
Thank you.

 

[mapleoak]

And for all of you who are “sharia mongers” who want it one way and just one way, that being YOUR way…ooooooh, another law passed to overturn Roe v. Wade…take a minute or two and read Sister Carol’s comments off of the link posted above:

As people of faith, the first thing we are called to do is redouble our efforts to be sure pregnant women do not see abortion as their only option.

***Has our belief in their dignity and that of their unborn child led us to create easily accessible and high quality obstetrical care? Have we set up programs that help them with food stamps, housing, education and child care? Can they readily see that our belief in their dignity and their child’s dignity causes us to spend our time and treasure helping them not only bear a child but to raise that child in an environment worthy of a child of God? ***

Those who work in pregnancy crisis centers and post-abortion counseling centers continually report that so many women get abortions not because they are pro-choice but because they feel they have no choice.

***Catholic health care, working with the Catholic community, local governments and others of goodwill, has developed in many areas wonderful programs that assist women and children. Now is the time to be sure we have effective programs in every community and that they are well known. How horrible it would be for a mother, who had an abortion because she thought she had no other option, to say “If only I had known.” ***

GEE, OH DUH>>>>>>> OK “Homer” are you beginning to catch the drift? It ain’t all about LAWS!! ITS ABOUT PEOPLE AND LIFE, AND BABIES!!! Not about whether or not you can get the political machine to do your bidding…

Shazaaaam, remove the excuses, alleviate the problems, and “voila’” …there is success.

One can rationalize justification for voting pro-choice all one likes, but in the end, that’s all it is, a vote for evil. It is no different than saying: “Lord, I pray for abortion to end, but I want what I want. I don’t want abortion, nevertheless I have my interests in mind and I hope You will take care of the abortion part of it.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

RobHom,
Please refrain from the use of swear words. Not only is it irritating, but I believe the forum rules say something about it as well.
Thank you.

Can’t find the “swear words.”

 

[mapleoak]

Can’t find the “swear words.”

That is a good thing. The less people that read them, the better.

 

[Feste_1242]

… then how can anyone even begin to believe that the government can order a Doctor or Nurse to murder an innocent child or take part in a procedure that causes death to an innocent child?

Because it’s about to give itself that power.

Or are you just afraid that some of these people will put their jobs and incomes ahead of the value of the life of an innocent child?

There is an overwhelming number of people who do that.

Does your “cause” or what you perceive to be a cause hinge on “hyperbole” or substance?

No hyperbole here, but thanks for the reality check.

Also, please pray for the one young lady that works at the abortion site. Her car was near where we were standing. She could not look at us. I had a smile ready as a smile is the first sign of God’s love. When she returned one of our group pointed out the rosary hanging from the rearview mirror of the worker’s car :nope: No judgement, just prayers.

That’s very sad, and confusing. However, she showed shame, which is good – maybe she will have a change of heart. I will definitely pray for her.

Speaking as a former fetus I wish to state the medical fields are better for the presence of Christians.

 

[Appleby]

No doubt. But I am amazed that so many Catholics are willing to step aside from whole professions without a fight. My own son wants to be a doctor. Based on your logic, should the conscience clauses be struck down, he should change his major, chose another career and start writing letters to Congress in hopes they will change something.

And again, it is one thing to speak of the sacrifice of individual doctors, which might be honorable. But we are speaking of sacrificing our children as well. Should all pro-lifers meekly step aside from medicine or even just from OB/GYN practices, all of our daughters will have medical care givers who are pro-abortion.

Babies were born for hundreds of years without the assistance of doctors. Nurses, midwives and mothers can assisst at mosts births, and women have even given birth with no assistance at all…in cars, on subway platforms, even once in the dressing room at Madison Square Garden between periods of a Rangers game.

As for your son, his conscience must be his guide.

 

[Teelynn]

Link doesn’t work.

Here you go…seems to work now…
www.catholicsagainstsebelius.org

Click on the article…
"Obama’s Choice of Sebelius Heats Up the Pro Life Battle",
and scroll down to the last paragraph. It will tell you about the Catholic Hospital that is succumbing to the pressure.

 

[Corki]

Babies were born for hundreds of years without the assistance of doctors. Nurses, midwives and mothers can assisst at mosts births, and women have even given birth with no assistance at all…in cars, on subway platforms, even once in the dressing room at Madison Square Garden between periods of a Rangers game.

Well, medicine has made many advances in the last decades. Not every birth needs high-tech medicine, but enough do. My second child would not have been born safely with a midwife. And OB/GYNs do a whole lot more than deliver babies. My mother is not going to be much help if I need gynocologic surgery (as I did in the early 90s) or if I needed to be screened for cervical cancer. And then there are pediatricians, internists, and GPs. Catholics are not anti-medicine, although there are some non-Catholic denominations that are.

I am just confused that so many of you who list Catholic as your affilitation are just fine with the idea of practicing Catholics being shut out of certain professions and think that doctors and nurses should just step aside. (edit: I am not questioning anyone’s Catholicity. But such positions would be more understandable if they were from non-Catholics.) We are not talking about professions that are immoral - Catholics should avoid being prostitutes or drug dealers because they can’t do so without sin in the essense of the profession.

As Highwaybound asserted, the medical professions are better for the presence of Christians. They would be much worse if all pro-life Christians were out of the professions.

When it comes to civil rights, according to your earlier post, you advocated and participated in civil disobedience. But when it comes to killing unborn babies, you think we should just step aside and let those who don’t have a problem with it fill the available positions. I just don’t get it.

I am not giving up my children’s and grandchildren’s generations that easily. I’m fighting.

 

[RobHom]

What are you talking about, surrendered? How do you know what the rest of us are doing or not doing? I as well as my parish community are very actively involved in helping poor women with their children and new babies, and those that are pregnant. What gall to insinuate that we are crying in our beer and not doing anything about the problem!!! I’m sure glad you know the rest of us so well that you know what we are lacking in!!! What are you doing about the problem by the way???

Teellynn, you really shouldn’t take things “personally”…I made the comments I made in a rather generic way… I have no idea what the “rest of you are doing”. I only know what I see and read… I do know that there are a number of our friends here on this site who seem to have a penchant for embracing a “governmental fix-all by Supreme Court actions”, as opposed to a multifaceted approach to solving the problems.

Me, I have no “gall” and I was not “insinuating” that you or anyone else was “crying in their beer”… Nor was I implying that people were doing nothing. I am very happy to hear that your parish is doing as mine is…helping women with their children and new babies and our St. Vincent DePaul Society is active there as well, and we have a Pharmacy that helps the poor as well. Me, I help the Church and St. Vincent DePaul as much as I can.
We make every effort to do so along with many others in our Parish. Our Parish also conducts on-site prayer vigils at the clinic here on a regular basis as well.

I am happy that you posted that your Parish is being proactive in this issue. I wish more people would spell out what their Parishes are doing in this fashion. I believe that more can be accomplished on the local level than with an overturn of a court decision.

As our Pastor Fr. Jerry Kaywell says, and said at Mass today: No matter how much mud gets on your shoes, keep looking up, the view is always better…

You see, I have a problem with people who believe that overturning Roe v. Wade will do the trick… I don’t believe it will, and I can’t see any point in waiting around to see if it will ever happen… Every child saved by helping the mother is a “Victory” all in its own.

 

[RobHom]

RobHom,
Please refrain from the use of swear words. Not only is it irritating, but I believe the forum rules say something about it as well.
Thank you.

Oh, I try, I try ever so hard, but I sometimes fail…though I try not to.

Even I have limits, and I find that some people test them…

 

[elts1956]

Well, medicine has made many advances in the last decades. Not every birth needs high-tech medicine, but enough do. My second child would not have been born safely with a midwife. And OB/GYNs do a whole lot more than deliver babies. My mother is not going to be much help if I need gynocologic surgery (as I did in the early 90s) or if I needed to be screened for cervical cancer. And then there are pediatricians, internists, and GPs. Catholics are not anti-medicine, although there are some non-Catholic denominations that are.

I am just confused that so many of you who list Catholic as your affilitation are just fine with the idea of practicing Catholics being shut out of certain professions and think that doctors and nurses should just step aside. (edit: I am not questioning anyone’s Catholicity. But such positions would be more understandable if they were from non-Catholics.) We are not talking about professions that are immoral - Catholics should avoid being prostitutes or drug dealers because they can’t do so without sin in the essense of the profession.

As Highwaybound asserted, the medical professions are better for the presence of Christians. They would be much worse if all pro-life Christians were out of the professions.

When it comes to civil rights, according to your earlier post, you advocated and participated in civil disobedience. But when it comes to killing unborn babies, you think we should just step aside and let those who don’t have a problem with it fill the available positions. I just don’t get it.

I am not giving up my children’s and grandchildren’s generations that easily. I’m fighting.

I don’t think anyone is giving up. The question is would pro life medical personnel be forced to perform abortions, or hand out contraceptives. It’s a matter of conscience. It isn’t “just fine” that this will happen. They would be “stepping aside” so they could sleep at night. The fight will continue.

 

[mapleoak]

When it comes to civil rights, according to your earlier post, you advocated and participated in civil disobedience. But when it comes to killing unborn babies, you think we should just step aside and let those who don’t have a problem with it fill the available positions. I just don’t get it.

It is not a matter of just stepping aside and letting those who don’t have a problem with it fill the positions. It is a matter of stepping down when the legal coersive requirement of retaining ones position involves commiting murder. The intention of the doctor is not that of, nor even indirectly that of, willing for pro-choice doctors to fill the position. It is the intention of strict refusal to be a part of the commision of a grave evil, even in the face of the looming threat of further evil happening against ones will.

 

[Teelynn]

Teellynn, you really shouldn’t take things “personally”…I made the comments I made in a rather generic way… I have no idea what the “rest of you are doing”. I only know what I see and read… I do know that there are a number of our friends here on this site who seem to have a penchant for embracing a “governmental fix-all by Supreme Court actions”, as opposed to a multifaceted approach to solving the problems.

Me, I have no “gall” and I was not “insinuating” that you or anyone else was “crying in their beer”… Nor was I implying that people were doing nothing. I am very happy to hear that your parish is doing as mine is…helping women with their children and new babies and our St. Vincent DePaul Society is active there as well, and we have a Pharmacy that helps the poor as well. Me, I help the Church and St. Vincent DePaul as much as I can.
We make every effort to do so along with many others in our Parish. Our Parish also conducts on-site prayer vigils at the clinic here on a regular basis as well.

I am happy that you posted that your Parish is being proactive in this issue. I wish more people would spell out what their Parishes are doing in this fashion. I believe that more can be accomplished on the local level than with an overturn of a court decision.

As our Pastor Fr. Jerry Kaywell says, and said at Mass today: No matter how much mud gets on your shoes, keep looking up, the view is always better…

You see, I have a problem with people who believe that overturning Roe v. Wade will do the trick… I don’t believe it will, and I can’t see any point in waiting around to see if it will ever happen… Every child saved by helping the mother is a “Victory” all in its own.

Thank you for clarifying your position. Yes, indeed, you are correct that this is a multifacited problem, and needs to be looked at and worked at on many levels. Poverty is a** huge** problem and there are others. We also need to educate people as to what exactly they are doing when they decide to have an abortion. “Changing hearts and minds” is the order of the day. “Priests For Life” are working on the many problem areas in eliminating the number of abortions. From helping poor women, to education, to lobbying at the government level. Heck, we even have to work on certain segments of the Catholic Church to try and reign this monster in, for cryin out loud!! Getting everyone on board to realize that abortion is a catastrophic evil that needs to be dealt with would be a big step in the direction we want to go. Abortion is a problem many times bigger than we are, but then we have a BIG GOD.

I work at the local level with Catholic Charities in my community, doing what I can. I believe that’s what the Lord is calling us to do. Work, prayer and sacrifice, and TRUST IN HIM. We also need to make our voices heard at the government level, but I am afraid that there just aren’t enough of us. The more laws in support of unabashed abortion, the more society has the license to spin ever more out of control. But yes, we need to work at the ground level, helping, changing hearts and minds. BIG JOB…BUT WE HAVE A BIG GOD!

Thanks again for the clarity. No offense taken