Moral Correction

[Jimbo2]

Vern, what universe do you live in? In the one I live in, there are no perfect actions that win everyone over, Bishops rarely hold anyone accountable for anything, and the Church is total mess of confusion, although it is polite to a fault…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, what universe do you live in? In the one I live in, there are no perfect actions that win everyone over,

I live in a universe where some people unfortunately take counter-productive actions and then deny all responsibiliy for the outcome.

Bishops rarely hold anyone accountable for anything, and the Church is total mess of confusion, although it is polite to a fault…

All the more reason why the rest of us should take responsibiliy for our actions.

 

[Jimbo2]

You know, there are quite a few people who dispute that Francis ever said the “if neccessary use words” thing.

I suppose, when the gentleman said that Mary was not a Virgin, I should have let that go unchallenged, eh? Absolutely no.

Someone in this Church has got to stand up. I can promise you this - If you don’t like people being outspoken and forthright, you are going to HATE the next generation of priests coming into the Church. A wave is sweeping vocations throughout the US, at least, and the young men are ready to insist on correct theology, correct practice, correct liturgy. The days of ex-nuns praying to the Earth Mother in the basment of the rectory are almost over, friends. There will be fighting, oh yes. Benedict wasn’t kidding when he warned about the Church possibly shrinking.

I welcome it. The sticky sweet love cannot flourish in an environment where Catholics cannot trust each other. It is too easily perverted into license and tolerance of evil.

So, some people will have to do the dirty work of cleaning up the Church for the weenies, all while the weenies pelt them with insults. Then the weenies can inherit the Church again and sing Kum by Ya.

Maybe the forthright people will even prevent your children from being taught that Jesus was the product of rape, or that contraception is OK, because we have enough courage to stand up to it. Don’t stand with us and for heaven’s sake never thank us - instead condemn us and castigate us. Tell us we’re mean-spirited, that’s really helpful.

 

[Jimbo2]

Oh, and by the way - I think, personally, that the intensity of the coming backlash will be proprotional to the amount of damage that “anything goes” Catholicism has inflicted on people over the last decades. So, it’s going to be the perfect storm.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You know, there are quite a few people who dispute that Francis ever said the “if neccessary use words” thing.

I suppose, when the gentleman said that Mary was not a Virgin, I should have let that go unchallenged, eh? Absolutely no.

But did it work? Did the other 18 people there rally 'round you and uphold you?

I gather from your previous posts that the answer is, “No.”

Can you think of something else that you could have done that would have convinced everyone of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, would have convewrted the Heretic, convinced the Sister to change her approach, and inspired your pastor to introduce better standards for religious instruction?

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Jimbo, I’d like to know if the man with the errant theology was removed from teaching CCD. Is common place for children to be taught heresy in CCD?

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Jimbo: I suppose, when the gentleman said that Mary was not a Virgin, I should have let that go unchallenged, eh? Absolutely no.

Did anyone say it shouldn’t be addressed? I gave you an alternative approach that might have been more successful. It doesn’t appear your approach was successful.

From Jimbo: Someone in this Church has got to stand up. I can promise you this - If you don’t like people being outspoken and forthright, you are going to HATE the next generation of priests coming into the Church.

I love all Priests, always and unconditionally.

Oh my! You really think that anyone who isn’t like you is evil. All I can reiterate is what I posted from the Catechism is:

From the Catechism:

1889 Without the help of grace, men would not know how “to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse.” (see CC25) This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. **Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. **It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: “Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.”

CC 25 To conclude this Prologue, it is fitting to recall this pastoral principle stated by the Roman Catechism:

The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love.

From Jimbo: I welcome it. The sticky sweet love cannot flourish in an environment where Catholics cannot trust each other. It is too easily perverted into license and tolerance of evil.

I’m not sure that people will trust people who characterize them the way you do.

From Jimbo: So, some people will have to do the dirty work of cleaning up the Church for the weenies, all while the weenies pelt them with insults. Then the weenies can inherit the Church again and sing Kum by Ya.

Where is your charity? weenies?

From Jimbo: Maybe the forthright people will even prevent your children from being taught that Jesus was the product of rape, or that contraception is OK, because we have enough courage to stand up to it. Don’t stand with us and for heaven’s sake never thank us - instead condemn us and castigate us. Tell us we’re mean-spirited, that’s really helpful.

Talk about a lack of humility. I really need to shake my sandals. Gotta go.

 

[dwc]

• If you don’t like people being outspoken and forthright, you are going to HATE the next generation of priests coming into the Church.

Don’t be so sure about that. Outspoken and forthright is not the behavior you described in your anecdote. In any event, my experience is that people are more receptive to people in authority who pull no punches than they are to their peers and priests have a certain inherent authority that you didn’t have in that meeting.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We are all supporters of the Catholic Church, but I think we need to meditate on the Parable of the Palm Frond Laxitives.a

It was claimed that certain palm fronds have a powerful laxitive effect – so naturally the FDA appointed a committee to investigate those claims.

The committee members came crawling out of the laboratory saying, “With fronds like these, who needs enemas?”

Let us remember, when we are morally impelled to do something, we are also morally impelled to pick a course of action likely to succeed. We don’t admonish people just to admonish them, or to make ourselves feel better. We admonish them to change their behavior. If we fail to do that, we fail, period.

 

[Jimbo2]

Jimbo, I’d like to know if the man with the errant theology was removed from teaching CCD. Is common place for children to be taught heresy in CCD?

He was not removed. Neither was the woman who taught the 9th graders that Peter was not a Pope and the Papacy is a medeival invention, or any of the other heretics.

Sister eventually had to be removed for inappropriate sexual conduct.

Is it commonplace? In my diocese, yes. Not in some others. We’ve had a couple of horrible Bishops who would never correct anyone for anything.

 

[Penny_Plain]

The committee members came crawling out of the laboratory saying, “With fronds like these, who needs enemas?”

Thank you, Vern.

For a weak moment, I was ready to see you as a voice of reason. Then I read that little gem and spat decaffeinated tea all over my keyboard.

Except for the palm fronds joke, I think Vern and Orion are right. The dichotomy between pacifists and (rats) whatever the opposite of pacifists is is a false dichotomy.

Yes, we are called to stand up for the faith. Is abortion wrong? Yes. No question about that. How do we apply that fact to this duty to go around correcting people? Consider these situations:

1. Your 16-year-old daughter tells you she is pregnant and is going to have an abortion.
2. Your son tells you his 30-year-old Catholic girlfriend is pregnant and is going to have an abortion.
3. Same as #2, but the girlfriend is not Catholic.
4. You hear through the parish rumor mill that a good friend of yours is considering an abortion.
5. You hear through the parish rumor mill that a fellow parishioner you’ve never met is considering an abortion.
6. You are walking by the abortion clinic and see an obviously pregnant woman who is a complete stranger to you about to walk into the clinic.

I think we’d all agree that we can’t act on rumor, or we shouldn’t. I think we might agree that how we’d respond to these situations depends upon our relationship to the other person – in other words, the daughter might be in for a rougher time than the son’s non-Catholic girlfriend.

We might even agree that our responsibility to the daughter is greater than that to the non-Catholic girlfriend, or the complete stranger, and that might affect how we respond to them.

And the question Vern keeps asking is an excellent question: What is going to WORK? Yelling at a complete stranger or humiliating somebody in an open meeting probably isn’t going to change somebody’s behavior or instill a sudden love of Christ.

It’s more likely to provoke a punch in the snoot.

 

[blessedtoo]

Jimbo,
Tangled in your somewhat agressive posts are some valid points. Perhaps you should take a deep breath, go back and read the valuable information Orion has provided, and respond thoughtfully.

I think we can all relate, to some degree, with the underlying frustration that has led you to appear so terribly angry. We come here often to discern the best course of action when we are dealing with friends, family, priests, etc., who appear to be going off the rails. We come here to pull apart the specifics of each situation because there can be no hard and fast rule for every single life experience. Some things are clear, some things are nuanced and require prayer and reflection. Charitable correction can be offered in more ways than what you originally put forth.

 

[Chancellare]

Uphold the Truth with Charity. Truth without Charity is Extremism. Charity without Truth is Nihilism. This is the Christian context of Truth. Not easy, but it is not supposed to be an easy religion.

 

[baltobetsy]

St. Francis de Sales tells us we must do what works, not just say something provocative to discharge our duty to correct when he says, “We must cook the truth in charity until it tastes sweet.”

Are we correcting because of anger and frustration, or because of genuine love?

Betsy

 

[vern_humphrey]

St. Francis de Sales tells us we must do what works, not just say something provocative to discharge our duty to correct when he says, “We must cook the truth in charity until it tastes sweet.”

Are we correcting because of anger and frustration, or because of genuine love?

Betsy

That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

I call it “Moral Pragmatism.” If we are morally impelled to do something, we are morally impelled to choose a course of action likely to lead to success. And to monitor the results and make changes as necessary.

What good does it do us to be right, if by hectoring and vituperatioin we drive people the other way?

 

[Jimbo2]

I am sensing a lack of something important.

As a Church, what course have we been pursuing with our errant brothers and sisters since the Council? Can someone characterize it for us? Hmm?

Now…

Has

It

Worked?

That’s why your criticisms don’t impress me. To say “Your method doesn’t work” ignores the elephant in the room - the fact that the course of politeness and niceness is absolutely proven not to have worked! Say what you want about harsh, unyielding priests and nuns with rulers - were their results worse than the post-VII Kum-by-Ya let’s all hold hands in a circle tactics?

I correct the man in public and possibly I offend some people and they are driven away from my position. I do not correct the man and it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by 40 years experimentation that the lay people will wander away from the teachings of the Church.

Look around you. We are surrounded by polite people. Father used to be an Irish hardliner. Now his name is Barry, he has a perm, and he is very, very understanding. Meanwhile, Mass attedendance is at an all-time low rate, the vast majority of Catholic women are on the pill, and nuns are ordaining themselves.

The kinder, gentler Church is a failure. A staggering, fantabulous, stupendously awesome failure.

I will take any other course.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The kinder, gentler Church is a failure. A staggering, fantabulous, stupendously awesome failure.

I will take any other course.

There are more than two speeds – dead stop and full ahead.

When you choose “any other course” you should monitor the outcome, to see if you’ve made things better or worse.

 

[Jimbo2]

And I should submit to you as the judge?

If your answer is no, what are all these dozens of posts about?

 

[vern_humphrey]

And I should submit to you as the judge?

As opposed to everyone else submitting to you as the judge?

If your answer is no, what are all these dozens of posts about?

I’m sure if you go back and re-read them, the meaning will come to you.

 

[Jimbo2]

The meaning is, apparently, that monitoring the results is actually of no importance, since no one has even asked about them. Apparently, aggressive tactics are verboten no matter what the results are. Have you now changed your mind on this point?

I get the feeling that you represent an idea which has failed.