JoeFreedom
New member
Make the environment for businesses in American favorable and they will come back.
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Victoria33
Guest
All of the repercussions and I’m sorry, I didn’t think of this one earlier. New story today and of all things, maybe I should post this in world news but no, there are enough coronavirus stories already:
With restaurant business slowed, rats are making house calls and they are hungry and angry: report
The CDC offers a couple of tips that could help you prevent a midnight stare down with Master Splinter when you head to the kitchen for a glass of water.
www.pennlive.com
And other coverage exists, this is one of the tamer headlines.
Long lines of traffic to food pantries, I don’t want to dwell on this. Just saying.
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dochawk
Guest
in a somewhat related anecdote . . . I was in a Thai restaurant in Amsterdam at a conference, and a cat walked out of the kitchen into the dining room!
My initial reaction was that I had somehow wandered into an inappropriate ethnic joke.
As my mind turned to sanitation, I pointed it out tho the folks I was with, thinking maybe we’d better find someplace else.
One of them knew enough to explain that the walls were hundreds of years old, and that it would be unhygienic to not keep a cat in the kitchen to hunt any vermin!
My initial reaction was that I had somehow wandered into an inappropriate ethnic joke.
As my mind turned to sanitation, I pointed it out tho the folks I was with, thinking maybe we’d better find someplace else.
One of them knew enough to explain that the walls were hundreds of years old, and that it would be unhygienic to not keep a cat in the kitchen to hunt any vermin!
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otjm
Guest
I am more than a bit hesitant to put much faith in future estimates coming from various news agencies, if for no other reason than that this virus coupled with the internet has brought out the tin foil hat brigades accompanied by the whackadoodles. And this is not a reference to the US solely by any means; there are conspiracy theories popping up like mosquitoes on a still pond in Germany, France, India and a number of Middle East countries, to name only a few.
However, history, to those who have actually studied it even a bit offers some references.
The Spanish Flu killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million world wide, with some 675,000 dead in the US. As it had a massive disruption to economies wherever it struck, there should be no casual doubt that many of those deaths could be attributed to starvation as a result of the disruption it caused. Not that anyone particularly was counting and dividing into categories.
World War 2 was even more effective. Estimates are 75,000,000 dead, 20-,000,000+/- of those civilians and 60,000,000+/- military. Deaths were due to deliberate genocide (6,000,000 Jews, and 10,000,000 others, including a lot of Catholics), massacres, mass-bombing, disease and starvation.
And undoubtedly there will be starvation in a number of areas. Some of that will be due to the disruption of supply chains, either locally, internally within a country, or country to country. Some of that will be due to unequal distribution where supply chains still operate at least partially.
As to moral dilemma, it is easy to arm chair the matter; it is entirely a compete other order to try to solve matters. A minor example exists within the US where it is not a lack of food, but a lack of processing of the food, and then distribution of the food.
For example, meat processing is far less oriented to the supermarkets than it is to the restaurant business, and the supply chain for each operates differently. The same issue exists for other foodstuffs; and when the processing itself breaks down (some 50 meat processing plants shut down because the virus spread among workers), not only does the supply chain break down, but also the processing chain.
It is hard to see who it is who is faced with a moral dilemma. Is it the producer (for example, the farmer raising the chickens)? The processing plant who shut down because a majority of workers were infected? The shipper who cannot send the chickens to market, because they are not processed? The market who can’t sell the chickens that were not delivered? (continued)
However, history, to those who have actually studied it even a bit offers some references.
The Spanish Flu killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million world wide, with some 675,000 dead in the US. As it had a massive disruption to economies wherever it struck, there should be no casual doubt that many of those deaths could be attributed to starvation as a result of the disruption it caused. Not that anyone particularly was counting and dividing into categories.
World War 2 was even more effective. Estimates are 75,000,000 dead, 20-,000,000+/- of those civilians and 60,000,000+/- military. Deaths were due to deliberate genocide (6,000,000 Jews, and 10,000,000 others, including a lot of Catholics), massacres, mass-bombing, disease and starvation.
And undoubtedly there will be starvation in a number of areas. Some of that will be due to the disruption of supply chains, either locally, internally within a country, or country to country. Some of that will be due to unequal distribution where supply chains still operate at least partially.
As to moral dilemma, it is easy to arm chair the matter; it is entirely a compete other order to try to solve matters. A minor example exists within the US where it is not a lack of food, but a lack of processing of the food, and then distribution of the food.
For example, meat processing is far less oriented to the supermarkets than it is to the restaurant business, and the supply chain for each operates differently. The same issue exists for other foodstuffs; and when the processing itself breaks down (some 50 meat processing plants shut down because the virus spread among workers), not only does the supply chain break down, but also the processing chain.
It is hard to see who it is who is faced with a moral dilemma. Is it the producer (for example, the farmer raising the chickens)? The processing plant who shut down because a majority of workers were infected? The shipper who cannot send the chickens to market, because they are not processed? The market who can’t sell the chickens that were not delivered? (continued)
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otjm
Guest
(continued)
In short, there is an overlay of guilt being applied (maybe the writers were Catholic?) to people who are not at fault.
And there are many poor with little or no financial backup - and realistically many governmental agencies (and I am again not speaking particularly of the US - or any other 1st world country) who simply have neither the financial or the logistical means of solving this.
I don’t want anyone to die. Many will. But hand wringing is not going to solve any issues; positive, concrete solutions may not solve them, but can work to alleviate the severity of it.
And it helps to keep in mind that headlines and scare reporting sell papers.
The short of it is that the issues of starvation and food distribution to the greatest extent is not something any of us have any control over. If there is an opportunity to feed the poor (e.g. street people) then by al means, if you have a local organization working on the issue (and many if not most were already in place), then volunteering if they need help is an exercise in charity. And if someone is starving in Guinea Bissau are starving, it is likely no one in this forum can do a single thing about it.
As an aside, I worked on a program for that country a number of years ago; it finally ended when a combination of political malfeasance and " you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink") ended it.
In short, the best laid plans and intentions cannot necessarily change things, no matter the effort.
In short, there is an overlay of guilt being applied (maybe the writers were Catholic?) to people who are not at fault.
And there are many poor with little or no financial backup - and realistically many governmental agencies (and I am again not speaking particularly of the US - or any other 1st world country) who simply have neither the financial or the logistical means of solving this.
I don’t want anyone to die. Many will. But hand wringing is not going to solve any issues; positive, concrete solutions may not solve them, but can work to alleviate the severity of it.
And it helps to keep in mind that headlines and scare reporting sell papers.
The short of it is that the issues of starvation and food distribution to the greatest extent is not something any of us have any control over. If there is an opportunity to feed the poor (e.g. street people) then by al means, if you have a local organization working on the issue (and many if not most were already in place), then volunteering if they need help is an exercise in charity. And if someone is starving in Guinea Bissau are starving, it is likely no one in this forum can do a single thing about it.
As an aside, I worked on a program for that country a number of years ago; it finally ended when a combination of political malfeasance and " you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink") ended it.
In short, the best laid plans and intentions cannot necessarily change things, no matter the effort.
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EndTimes
Guest
Maybe - many folks reduced to poverty + Food Infrastructure damaged…
Mama Nature - Floods, Cooling Weather in parts - Ongoing Locust Infestations ALSO lead to Famine
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JoeFreedom
New member
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
This is just one county in the U.S. It is also just one type of death that is a direct result of the draconian lockdown orders.
Fast foward to about 4 minutes. It is right after the two doctors speak about how they have the data to prove scientifically more people are attempting and dying of suicide, almost a year’s worth of suicides in just 4 weeks.
The county’s response…
{classic}
“We are saving lives by sheltering in place…”
One wants to bash one’s head against the wall in sheer disbelief. People are dying because of their orders yet they continue to ignore the facts staring them right in the face. The moral dilemma we face is not black and white, it’s not “covid-only vs everything else”.
This is just one county in the U.S. It is also just one type of death that is a direct result of the draconian lockdown orders.
Fast foward to about 4 minutes. It is right after the two doctors speak about how they have the data to prove scientifically more people are attempting and dying of suicide, almost a year’s worth of suicides in just 4 weeks.
The county’s response…
{classic}
“We are saving lives by sheltering in place…”
One wants to bash one’s head against the wall in sheer disbelief. People are dying because of their orders yet they continue to ignore the facts staring them right in the face. The moral dilemma we face is not black and white, it’s not “covid-only vs everything else”.
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Victoria33
Guest
And among a number of articles talking about a waiting list for elective surgeries because patients are foregoing these now:
ca.news.yahoo.com
Catching up on Alberta's surgery backlog could take 2 years, AHS medical director says
It may take up to two years for Alberta operating rooms to work through a backlog of elective and non urgent surgeries postponed during the peak of the COVID-19 pandemic.Since Alberta Health Services temporarily halted elective surgeries on March 18, at least 22,000 people had procedures put on...
So, elective surgeries, I know the basic meaning of that but perhaps not it’s full meaning.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I fail to see how any of these news articles affect our personal behavior.
I wear my mask because it’s required by the local authority, it protects others and it may even protect me.
If there’s a charity providing food or rent assistance or whatever, and it needs donations, I try to donate to it.
I don’t go out and do foolish things like run around the beach or the park on Memorial Day with hundreds of people.
When I go to my church or to the grocery store, I social distance and follow whatever other rules have been put in place for the good of all (limiting purchases of some items, using hand sanitizer etc)
I patronize some of the local restaurants and the grocery store and other places that sell things I need.
When it’s time to vote, I will choose the candidates I think are best for the job.
I don’t read and analyze the news. I don’t see a point. I don’t even see the point of this discussion honestly. Most of what’s going on in this thread is beyond our personal control and outside the sphere of anything we do all day. I think some people enjoy the intellectual exercise of poring over the news and offering opinions on it. Fine, it’s something you like to do. It’s not necessary though.
I wear my mask because it’s required by the local authority, it protects others and it may even protect me.
If there’s a charity providing food or rent assistance or whatever, and it needs donations, I try to donate to it.
I don’t go out and do foolish things like run around the beach or the park on Memorial Day with hundreds of people.
When I go to my church or to the grocery store, I social distance and follow whatever other rules have been put in place for the good of all (limiting purchases of some items, using hand sanitizer etc)
I patronize some of the local restaurants and the grocery store and other places that sell things I need.
When it’s time to vote, I will choose the candidates I think are best for the job.
I don’t read and analyze the news. I don’t see a point. I don’t even see the point of this discussion honestly. Most of what’s going on in this thread is beyond our personal control and outside the sphere of anything we do all day. I think some people enjoy the intellectual exercise of poring over the news and offering opinions on it. Fine, it’s something you like to do. It’s not necessary though.
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JoeFreedom
New member
The point is that the CDC says that the true fatality rate is about 0.26%, which is not all that much greater than the flu and a whole lot less then past pandemics. So the point is that everything that we are forced to do, and are doing by choice (to follow our great “leaders”), which is totally without precedent, (without even discussing the fact that our economy is trashed, other types of deaths are reaching unprecedented numbers), is unnecessary, and one could even make the argument that it has violated our personal liberties (in the U.S.), particularly our right to religion and worship as we please without government intervention.
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1cthlctrth
Guest
Well, the cat’s out of the bag now. Leftist media and Governors spent months claiming that protesters of the lockdowns, as well as business owners who defied lockdowns, were endangering lives. Now, these same Governors and media members are praising the mass gatherings of protesters of the murder of George Floyd.
So, which is it: extreme measures are necessary to social distance, or they are not? Or, is extreme social distancing only demanded when it will close down businesses and force 40 million workers into unemployment, and less money for food?
So, which is it: extreme measures are necessary to social distance, or they are not? Or, is extreme social distancing only demanded when it will close down businesses and force 40 million workers into unemployment, and less money for food?
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otjm
Guest
What you are flat out ignoring is that the flu seasons which have resulted in deaths have been spread out over a much longer time. Why? Because the infection rate (transmission rate) is far greater than the flu bugs. The death rate from flu bugs may be similar, but the deaths are over a greater period of time. Had we failed to isolate (which just about every country in the world - except Sweden - has been doing) we would have had our ICU’s overwhelmed as happened in Italy. When the ICUs are overwhelmed, people die from non-treatment as there is not enough staff - doctors and nurses - and ventilators to cope.
Sweden decided to not isolate; and they had a higher death rate than their surrounding countries which did isolate.
Our economy is trashed. so is every other economy in the world. And you can thank the Chinese Communist Party for withholding evidence far, far beyond the point of a responsible warning.
Nowhere are the rights, which you complain have been violated, absolute. That is a gross misstatement of the law.
Suicides are a large part of those numbers, as well as other people dying for lack of medical treatment for other than the virus.
On the other hand, the Spanish Flu is estimated to have killed something in the range of 50,000,000 people world wide. There currently are some 393,000+ deaths world wide; and the world reacted in a far different fashion with this virus, through the isolation to which you complain.
I can understand that you may not have a very wide perspective on the dangers of this virus, as much of the “chin chatter” has been politicized. There is, however, accurate information as to how this virus spreads and what situations put a person at higher risk.
I would invite you to Google The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them by Erin Bromage; he is an epidemiologist who did a transmission study. After reading it, I am not going to be going out to dinner anywhere soon.
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otjm
Guest
Another source of information, although less specific, is the fact that some 50 meat processing plants have been shut down (some may be reopened now). they w;e;re shut down as the virus was passed from one to many in a parabolic rate of infection.
Open air, not close contact, you are very unlikely to be infected. Close contact, and especially for long periods of time in close quarters is perfectly fine as long as no one is infected. One person infected (and they may not be symptomatic yet) can infect a large number of people.
I saw two reports, both from South Korea, in what appeared tobe second-hand information. One report indicated that one person infected 1,000 (and I cannot guarantee the number); the other indicated that a woman had attended both a funeral and a wedding and infected “many”. That might be the same reported person; South Korea appears to have been very effective in tracing.
JoeFreedom
New member
I’m not flat out ignoring anything. Had Cuomo and other Democratic governors NOT legally dictated and forced nursing homes to take COVID patients there would likely be 42,000 more people alive, since 42% of the deaths so far were in nursing homes. As I’ve said from the beginning, protect the vulnerable. Then the death rate would be even lower. I will say here, over and over, this is NOT DEADLIER than the flu. Here’s why:
Isolation has been shown to have done absolutely nothing to help stop the spread. Let’s see what happens in two weeks here in the US with all the rioters and looters who did not 1) social distance and/or 2) wear masks. If we do not see spikes, then isolation will have proved to been pointless.
And I’m tired of people telling me my rights (and yours too) can simply be abridged because of flipping viruses. What’s next? Who decides then when and what rights get suspended. They are rights because they CANNOT be taken away except if you voluntarily lose those rights by breaking the law (e.g.: you cannot own a gun in prison). But your rights don’t “go away”, “get suspended” or whatever else you wanna call it because “emergency”. I have several constitutional lawyers I follow who would say you are 100% wrong. I’m fine if you want to cede your rights, go ahead, but leave MINE alone.
I do know the risks, and I will go out to eat.
- The flu has been around for a long time and people have herd immunity.
- We do not yet have herd immunity for this novel coronavirus.
- Thus the spread of the flu is less comparatively to COVID, but once herd immunity is reached for COVID, the death rate and infection rate will be that of the flu.
- Had the flu been a first time virus this year, the same thing would have happened like COVID did. There would have been more deaths in a smaller period of time.
- Finally, had our tyrant governors done the right thing, we’d have a lot less deaths.
Isolation has been shown to have done absolutely nothing to help stop the spread. Let’s see what happens in two weeks here in the US with all the rioters and looters who did not 1) social distance and/or 2) wear masks. If we do not see spikes, then isolation will have proved to been pointless.
And I’m tired of people telling me my rights (and yours too) can simply be abridged because of flipping viruses. What’s next? Who decides then when and what rights get suspended. They are rights because they CANNOT be taken away except if you voluntarily lose those rights by breaking the law (e.g.: you cannot own a gun in prison). But your rights don’t “go away”, “get suspended” or whatever else you wanna call it because “emergency”. I have several constitutional lawyers I follow who would say you are 100% wrong. I’m fine if you want to cede your rights, go ahead, but leave MINE alone.
I do know the risks, and I will go out to eat.
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peterpan
Guest
This really is a dilemma. Medical science alone cannot provide all the answers. We must look to God and the leadership of the Church. We also need wise statesmen that see the broader picture and make the difficult decisions involving tradeoffs. Lastly, each one of us needs to fight the virus, be as productive as possible, and do something personally to alleviate hunger and poverty among the most vulnerable.
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otjm
Guest
That is simply not true. Isolation has reduced the rate of transmission.
I am not going to argue the issue of New York, but your comment is totally inaccurate as to the deadliness of the flu vs. the virus. The flu on a yearly average kills between 20,000 and 50,000 in the US, and the death rate is scattered out over four to 6 months months, and that in itself should tell anyone who can do math that this virus transmission is far faster and far deadlier than the flu even with isolation. Without isolation, we would have had far far more deaths.
You need to actually study some law before you start off about your "rights’. The corollary to rights is responsibility, a point you seem to miss. No one has “taken away” your rights; but they have been temporarily suspended, which is well within the law. Your lawyers have opinions, but they do not have cases to back them. I don’t know what grades they cot in Constitutional Law class, but they seemed to have missed a few points if they even took it.
There are a whole series of cases across the United States, and each case depends on its facts, the statutes upon which the State acted, and case law. However, a blanket statement that the states have no power is directly contrary to US constitutional law cases. If a state acted outside of its proper procedures to invoke forms of isolation or closures of businesses, that does not show that the state could have invoked the same rules had they followed proper procedure. And that is simply one example.
And since you say you know the risks, you are welcome to note the epidemiological studies supporting them.
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