Moral Dilemma in Star Wars Episode III

[masterjedi747]

Forgive me for not posting off-topic with this question.
But it is a morality question, so I wanted it to go here.
And PLEASE don’t just ignore this thread completely!

Hopefully this won’t take too long, but unfortunately it is a very complicated argument. I would appreciate help from anyone out there who is interested in tackling difficult moral theology questions…with a sci-fi twist.

For anyone out there who has seen Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith:
Was Mace Windu’s decision to attempt to kill Chancellor Palpatine morally acceptable?

For those of you who may not know what I am talking about, and even those of you who do, I will provide links to few pages of the discussion so far, with the relative posts:

Page 7: Just read my post – MasterJedi747.
Page 8: Just read from top of page down to my post. Ignore any anti-Bush jabbing.
Page 9 and Page 10: Skim through these if you have time, but not necessary.
Page 11: Read two posts by Violetsaber.
Page 12: Read posts by Master_Shaitan, Invictus_Sol, and MasterJedi747.
Page 13: Read first half of page, down to just past my second post.
Page 14: Read posts by Master_Shaitan and MasterJedi747.

I have held my position so far that it was morally acceptable. But I would like to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from other faithful Catholics, to see if I’m holding out on a valid position here.

 

[dennisknapp]

masterjedi747:

Forgive me for not posting off-topic with this question.
But it is a morality question, so I wanted it to go here.
And PLEASE don’t just ignore this thread completely!

Hopefully this won’t take too long, but unfortunately it is a very complicated argument. I would appreciate help from anyone out there who is interested in tackling difficult moral theology questions…with a sci-fi twist.

For anyone out there who has seen Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith:
Was Mace Windu’s decision to attempt to kill Chancellor Palpatine morally acceptable?

For those of you who may not know what I am talking about, and even those of you who do, I will provide links to few pages of the discussion so far, with the relative posts:

Page 7: Just read my post – MasterJedi747.
Page 8: Just read from top of page down to my post. Ignore any anti-Bush jabbing.
Page 9 and Page 10: Skim through these if you have time, but not necessary.
Page 11: Read two posts by Violetsaber.
Page 12: Read posts by Master_Shaitan, Invictus_Sol, and MasterJedi747.
Page 13: Read first half of page, down to just past my second post.
Page 14: Read posts by Master_Shaitan and MasterJedi747.

I have held my position so far that it was morally acceptable. But I would like to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from other faithful Catholics, to see if I’m holding out on a valid position here.

Killing a defeated foe, even a highly evil one as the Emperor, is always immoral.

The reasons:

1. You become that which you are trying to defeat.
2. There are always other options besides killing, and killing should never be done in the way Windu was about to do it.
3. It is against the Jedi Code as Anakin states before his full turn to the darkside.

Peace

 

[masterjedi747]

dennisknapp:

Killing a defeated foe, even a highly evil one as the Emperor, is always immoral.

Agreed. But the question then becomes: Was Palpatine truly defeated? It appears not.

Re-posting all of my arguments from that thread into here.
If you see what you believe is an error, please help me correct it.​

For now, I’m going to go ahead and say that it was morally acceptable.
Let me first point out though, that the original intent was that they were going to arrest Palpatine.
But then he attacked them, and everything went rapily downhill from that point on.

Murder is the unjust killing of an innocent human being.
It’s definitely not murder. Not like Anakin with Dooku. This is essentially tyrannicide.
And there are four conditions for a just/moral tyrannicide:

1. Clearly corrupt and tyrannical: Yes. Palpatine is leading the war on both sides. He essentially has complete control of the Senate, and refused to relinquish his emergency powers as promised.
2. Replacement government ready: Yes. The Jedi themselves stand in temporarily as the replacement government until a new Supreme Chancellor can be legally and fairly elected.
3. No lesser means possible: Yes. The only thing that is ever going to be able to truly stop Palpatine, which Mace himself also realized while he was fighting him, was death…if even that. Anything else that they might do to him at this point would only be a temporary solution at best. The only way to effectively remove the threat that he presented was to attempt to remove him permanently.
4. Chance of success: Yes. Palpatine is essentially the only one standing in their way. With him gone, and the war over, there’s essentially nothing left to prevent the Jedi from returning powers to the Senate and restoring the Republic for its original purpose.

So yes, I say Mace was morally justified in attempting to kill Palpatine. And I’m sure that the Jedi Council itself would have come to the same conclusion if they could have been given enough time to consider all of the options. But they didn’t, and Mace was forced to make a tough decision all on is own…and I think he made a valid choice.​

"He was too dangerous to be kept alive."
There is a reason why this dialogue is here and then used again by mace windu. it shows that it is the wrong thing to do.

That…OR it simply shows us how easy it was for Palpatine to convince Anakin that it was the wrong thing to do. Palpatine was lying in the beginning. Mace is not. And Anakin can’t tell the difference.

One case was an unarmed prisoner of war.
The other was a “fully armed and operational” Sith Lord.

Screw his little moaning “I’m too weak” with force lightning still coming out of his fingers. Dooku wasn’t still attacking Anakin when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him. And Palpatine wasn’t even beginning to consider surrender to the Jedi as an option, whereas Dooku really had no choice but to surrender to the Jedi.

Actually, I think you could even say that because Palpatine was obviously not incapacitated (because he was still using the force lightning), then that gives us reason to believe that Mace Windu was making the right decision.​

Mace Windu attempted murder!
No. Murder is the unjust killing of an innocent human being.
He didn’t attempt to murder Palpatine. He attempted to kill him.
There’s a very fine line between those two. One is inherently immoral. The other is not.
As I said before, eliminating Palpatine is much more an act of tyrannicide than it is an assassination.
Mace was still operating within the moral limits of the Jedi Code, albeit pushing the limit.
He was attempting to kill a traitor of the Republic.
Palpatine was working on both sides of the war. He was a traitor. And he was never going to consider surrender to the Jedi as an option.
Palpatine had convinced Anakin that he needed him to save Padme.
Anakin, confused and blinded by his fear, didn’t understand what Mace was doing, and responded irrationally.
The Jedi are enforcers of the law, to keep peace within the Republic.
And the government has a right to protect itself by killing certain individuals who present an unreasonable an uncontainable threat to that peace. An armed and traitorous Sith Lord meets such qualifications.
Mace was morally justfied in killing him. It was not murdering him.

 

[masterjedi747]

This guy is a total wacko and he is in my home. He has killed cough millions. He has butchered my family. He can…shoot lightning from his hands. It seems that i have managed to beat him in a swordfight.
He says that he gives up and says that he surrenders. There is a possibilty that he will attack me again. I dont listen and chop his head off. Everyone see’s it.

“He says that he gives up and says that he surrenders.”

That’s just it. That’s where the difference comes in.
Palpatine never did that. He never even considered doing it.
He was just playing his last card to manipulate Anakin and turn him to the Dark Side.​

He said he surrended…
Let’s take a look at the script then, shall we?​

*ANAKIN lands his speeder, jumps out, and runs down a long corridor toward the Chancellor’s office.

In the heat of battle, MACE cuts the window behind the Chancellor’s desk, and it crashes away. MACE is forced out onto the ledge, which is twenty stories up. They fight over the precipice. ANAKIN arrives to see PALPATINE and MACE fighting.

They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other.

MACE WINDU: You are under arrest, My Lord.

PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.

MACE WlNDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over . . . you have lost . . .

PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!

PALPATINE raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE’s lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill.

PALPATINE: He is a traitor, Anakin.

MACE WlNDU: He’s the traitor. Stop him!

PALPATINE: Come to your senses, boy. The Jedi are in revolt. They will betray you, just as they betrayed me.

MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh . . .

PALPATINE: You are not one of them, Anakin. Don’t let him kill me.

MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh . . .

PALPATINE: I am your pathway to power. I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose. You must stop him.

MACE WlNDU: Don’t listen to him, Anakin.

PALPATINE: Help me! Don’t let him kill me. I can’t hold on any longer. Ahhhhhhh . . . ahhhhhhh . . . ahhhhhhh . . .

MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine’s hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor’s face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.

PALPATINE: I can’t … I give up. Help me. I am weak … I am too weak. Don’t kill me. I give up. I’m dying. I can’t hold on any longer.

MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.

ANAKIN: You can’t kill him, Master. He must stand trial.

MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.

PALPATINE: I’m too weak. Don’t kill me. Please.

ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way . . .

MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.

ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live . . .

PALPATINE: Please don’t, please don’t . . .

ANAKIN: I need him . . .

PALPATINE: Please don’t . . .

ANAKIN: NO!!!

Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi’s hand holding the lightsaber.

As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
The full force of Palpatine’s powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.

PALPATINE: Power! Unlimited power!

His face has changed into a horrible mask of evil. ANAKIN looks on in horror. PALPATINE cackles.*​

You’re right. He said that he “gave up…”
But he still had force lightning coming out of his fingers while he said it!!!
He was still attacking Mace while he “surrendered”. He was (surprise!) lying.
Do you really think that someone who was honestly surrendering would still be attacking?
If he had really surrendered, then you might actually have something to go on.
But he didn’t. He was just twisting Anakin to turn to the Dark Side.

 

[masterjedi747]

**they had the right and the duty to arrest palps once they found out he was a sith lord!!! **
The simple fact of the matter was that Palpatine’s term was over. He was way past his due time in office, with much more power than he should have ever had. The war was over, and he was supposed to give up those powers. And he didn’t. So they went to arrest him. To enforce the law. And he, being a Sith Lord, attacked them instead. That’s all. Simple as that.​

At the very moment mace is about to strike him down, Palpatine, in the eyes of mace and anakin, has given up. he has surrenederd. To them he has used and failed with his lightning.
He has not surrendered. He may have stopped using the lightning several seconds earlier, but he had not surrendered. He’s still talking to Anakin, and trying to convince him to turn instead. He’s acting. And Mace knew that.

Face it mace acted out of fear of losing power. The loss of the republic and jedi order was too much for him. He acted out of anger and emotion. he went in for the kill.
No. That’s just what Palpatine wanted Anakin to believe. Mace acted because it was his duty to do so. The only way to effectively eliminate the threat that Palpatine presented was to kill him. It’s not murder. The simple fact is that there is no lesser means of stopping this Sith Lord. Mace acted to do what he had to. All he had really wanted to do in the first place was arrest Palpatine. Then Palpatine attacked, and everything from there on changed rapidly.

Lets look at the results of mace’s action:
Anakin has to make a choice and turns…
Metaphorically the action was wrong due to the above results.
Anakin’s turn was not an intended result of Mace’s action. Anakin turned all on his own. Anakin acted out of fear of losing power. The loss of the “power to save his wife” (that never really existed in the first place) was too much for him. Anakin acted out of fear and emotion. Not Mace.

Morally it was wrong as it is against the code, not the jedi way and was out of emotion.
It was not against the Jedi Code. And the Jedi Way is to protect innocent people. Palpatine was not innocent. He was actually a threat to other innocent people. Anakin acted out of emotion, and subsequently completed his turn to the Dark Side, not Mace.

Legally it was wrong as as it is illegal to execute a person who has surrendered and without trial.
Palpatine was a traitor, and he had not surrendered. He already was guilty, and the Jedi had the authority to move against him. They were more than willing to put him on trial until he moved against them. Then he became the aggressor, and Mace had no choice but to deal with him right then and there. Palpatine was never going to give up his emergency powers. He was a traitor to the Republic and murderer. And he was lying with nearly every breath he took. Every word he spoke to Anakin was simply doing more and more damage. The threat which he represented was so immense that Mace was exactly right when he told Anakin, “He’s too dangerous to be kept alive!” Dooku, on the other hand, wasn’t too dangerous to be kept alive. Palpatine was lying to Anakin both times. What part of this is too much to understand?

You can say the trial would be a joke - I say always in motion is the future. They should deal that bridge when they come to it.
The potential for a trial in this case was not realistic enough to consider as a valid option. Mace knew that. Why can’t you admit it also?

Jedi should live by morals.
Absolutely! But you seem to forget that there are certain loopholes that exist where morality is concerned. This is one of them. Killing a clearly corrupt and evil Sith Lord as a last resort is a morally acceptable option.

Arrest isnt the issue here. of course he should be arrested. Legally thats fine.
But then he resisted that arrest, and proved to the Jedi once and for all that he was too dangerous to be kept alive, and that the only way to stop him was to kill him.​

Maybe they should of gone to trial Mace could of presented that evidence to the Senate.
PALPATINE: “I am the Senate!”
Trial was ultimately not going to be a realistically viable option for bringing Palpatine to justice.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Actually the Emperor really wasn’t defeated, as is shown when he zaps Windu after Anakin cuts off his hand. Someone like the Emperor wouldn’t repent, and I don’t think there is any way for the Jedis to “block” him from using the force, so he could have escaped custody and killed more people. I thought the Church did accept the death penalty in some cases (though I may be mistaken) and that was basically what Windu was doing.

 

[masterjedi747]

Rand Al'Thor:

I thought the Church did accept the death penalty in some cases (though I may be mistaken) and that was basically what Windu was doing.

I’m pretty sure that it is only considered acceptable as a (more or less) last resort.
The Pope has said that in our modern countries, however, such a case should be extremely rare to non-existent, because other non-lethal punishments/prisons exist as an option.

 

[masterjedi747]

The other two good posts by Violetsaber:​

The Jedi were trying to usurp/overthrow duly elected representatives of the people of the galaxy. While some may say this was a good move, its not the way laws work in a democracy. I think the only authority the Jedi had in this matter was to report this to the Senate, who would have decided for good or for bad. But it was the Senates choice, not the Jedis’. GL was showing us just how arrogant the Jedi had become, thinking they were above the law. Mace especially, thinking he was judge, jury and executioner.

That is the point. There WAS NO DEMOCRACY! The Senators and the courts all worked for Palpatine! It doesn’t matter how the law works under a democracy, because at that point the LAW DIDN’T WORK! At a time like that, when the law is being freely disobeyed and twisted to destroy the Jedi, Mace had to do something that would save his Order.

Should he take him to court? It would be the lawful thing to do, wherapon he could watch Palpatine turn the law to cheese macaroni, get off scot free, and turn everyone against the Jedi.

Or he could kill Palpatine. It would be illegal, but it would be RIGHT.

Violetsaber​

And yes, a Sith can be imprisoned, just as a Jedi can. Did you not watch the films? In AOTC, Obi-wan was trussed up in a stasis field. Later, he and Anakin were chained and forced to into the Arena. Anakin surrended when he lost his Lightsaber and had blasters and sonic blasters trained on him. In ROTS, Grievous uses ray sheilds to hold two Jedi and one Sith Lord. We also see a handless Dooku defeated. Had Anakin not listen to Palpatine, they would’ve taken Dooku in to stand trial for war crimes. In TESB, Vader was going to use carbonite to contain Luke. In ROTJ, Luke surrendered of his own accord and had blasters pointed at him, the whole time, except when alone with Vader.

Yeah, I can see that happening.

“Come along, Sidious! Just follow me! Right down this hallway, past all the loyal Senators and brainwashed followers! Jump in this hovercar and we’ll take you to our temple, where we can’t even handle Anakin Skywalker by himself! Sit down and PUT ON YOUR SEATBELT! And at least PRETEND those handcuffs mean something! SIT STILL! SIT STILL, DARN YOU! Now, these are your rights…you have the right to the best brainwashed lawyer in the galaxy, who will immediately get you off because all you can be accused of is having a different religion. You have the right to remain silent. Please do and do NOT USE MIND TRICKS! Please. PLEEEEASE! If you do not have enough money for an attorney, you may NOT mind-trick an already brainwashed Senator into defending you…NO! I said you MAY NOT! Now…WHAT ARE YOU DOING? SIT DOWN! NO! You may NOT jump off the edge of the speeder into the lower levels of Coruscant! Sit STILL! I…NOOOOOOOoooooo…(insert your favorite explative here)!”

Mace and Anakin watch Palpatine dissapear, then turn to each other.

“Do you think there may have been a better way of handling that?”

Violetsaber

 

[marty1818]

dennisknapp:

Killing a defeated foe, even a highly evil one as the Emperor, is always immoral.

The reasons:

1. You become that which you are trying to defeat.
2. There are always other options besides killing, and killing should never be done in the way Windu was about to do it.
3. It is against the Jedi Code as Anakin states before his full turn to the darkside.

Peace

You could compare Windu’s attempt to kill the Emperor to killing a convict with the death penalty. It is acceptable to kill a convict who cannot be properly locked up and kept from hurting members of society. In the U.S. today we have the ability to lock them up and seperate them from society, but in the movie you could argue that the Emperor still a threat and could not be securely locked up.

matt

matt

 

[marty1818]

Rand Al'Thor:

Actually the Emperor really wasn’t defeated, as is shown when he zaps Windu after Anakin cuts off his hand. Someone like the Emperor wouldn’t repent, and I don’t think there is any way for the Jedis to “block” him from using the force, so he could have escaped custody and killed more people. I thought the Church did accept the death penalty in some cases (though I may be mistaken) and that was basically what Windu was doing.

The Church does permits the death penalty in those rare occasions where a person cannot be held in custody properly and are a threat to society.

matt

 

[marty1818]

dennisknapp:

Killing a defeated foe, even a highly evil one as the Emperor, is always immoral.

The reasons:

1. You become that which you are trying to defeat.
2. There are always other options besides killing, and killing should never be done in the way Windu was about to do it.
3. It is against the Jedi Code as Anakin states before his full turn to the darkside.

Peace

You could compare Windu’s attempt to kill the Emperor to killing a convict with the death penalty. It is acceptable to kill a convict who cannot be properly locked up and kept from hurting members of society. In the U.S. today we have the ability to lock them up and seperate them from society, but in the movie you could argue that the Emperor still a threat and could not be securely locked up.
matt

 

[777]

marty1818:

You could compare Windu’s attempt to kill the Emperor to killing a convict with the death penalty. It is acceptable to kill a convict who cannot be properly locked up and kept from hurting members of society. In the U.S. today we have the ability to lock them up and seperate them from society, but in the movie you could argue that the Emperor still a threat and could not be securely locked up.
matt

All that just to protect the 400 High Society?

 

[Black_Jaque]

I haven’t seen the movie, but the description of the script sounds like Mace was in the right.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it was Mace Windu’s grave duty to render the aggressor harmless. The secondary duty is to bring the aggressor to justice (trial). But the grave duty outweighs the lesser duty.

Mace can insist that Palpatine drop his lightsaber as part of the surrender conditions, but how does Mace relieve Palpatine of the Sith Lightning? Remember Mace’s duty is to render Palpatine harmless to the rest of society.

The Catholic Church constantly hammers into our little brains that our actions must be consistant with our words. We can’t just cry out, “Jesus, I accept your salvation!” and not have our actions speak the same message. Similarly, Palpatine cannot cry out “I give up” while at the same time he continues to fight. A soldier who surrenders must also lay down his weapons.

 

[masterjedi747]

Black Jaque:

Mace can insist that Palpatine drop his lightsaber as part of the surrender conditions, but how does Mace relieve Palpatine of the Sith Lightning?

I suppose the best argument there is that Mace could have just cut off his hands, like Anakin did to Dooku. But then again we have no idea if that would actually be able to stop him, if he was perhaps powerful enough to keep lightning coming out of his wrists. Not to mention his telekenetic powers and mental influence over those around him, coupled with all the legal power in the world that has been given to him to do whatsoever he wishes with the courts…

 

[Ghosty]

Actually, being a Sith Lord is not a crime. Sith is a religion, and there was nothing forbidding anyone from being Sith in the Rebublic. The Jedi simply don’t LIKE the Sith (and for good reasons), but being Sith was not a crime. Furthermore, Palpatine was popularily elected and was asked by the Senate to stay past his term so there was nothing wrong with his stay in office. In other words, Palpatine had every legal right to stay in office, and the Jedi Council WAS commiting insurrection; that is the beauty of Palpatine’s plot! In fact, Palpatine’s rise to power mirrors Hitler’s in many regards.

Now, with all that being said, we still have to consider if Mace, and the Council’s, illegal act was morally justifiable. We have to look at the Church’s stance on when one can disobey the laws. The Church allows us to disobey unjust laws, but is freedom of religion an unjust law? Is staying in office due to massive popular votes unjust? I would think not, so we have to look at whether or not Palpatine could be attacked for other reasons, such as his manipulation of the war. Fact is, the Jedi did not know about Palpatine’s manipulation of the war, and were not acting against him on those grounds. That would be a morally good reason to have him arrested/strike him down if he resisted. Instead the Jedi were acting purely on (well founded, but illegal) religious intolerance. Remember also that Mace stated in the Council meeting that if they deposed Palpatine, the Jedi would have to take over the Republic (Yoda shoots down this idea as leading to the Dark Side), suggesting that perhaps his motives were not entirely pure. In all reality, Mace is leading a political usurpation based on illegal religious prejudice against a very, very popular leader.

We don’t even have to get to the self-defence issue after the fight to see that the Jedi were morally in the wrong with the initial insurrection. Let’s assume, however, that they were right and things played out as we see in the movie. Mace would NOT have been in the wrong in killing Palpatine right then because Palpatine was never disarmed. He had demonstrated the ability to SHOOT LIGHTING FROM HIS BODY AT WILL, and that counts as armed in my book. When someone shows an intent to harm, and doesn’t drop their weapon, it’s your duty to stop them in any way necessary to protect innocents. Since Palpatine couldn’t be disarmed, he had to be killed. Mace’s intention to strike him down after the fight was NOT evil under Catholic guidelines. Unfortunately everything he’d done up to that point was evil, so taken together the killing would have been murder, as Palpatine was acting in legitimate self-defense.

It’s easy to get caught up in what we know about the future of Palpatine’s actions, but we must remember that at the time, the Jedi were driven purely by religious hatred and illegal political motives. They were insurrectionists, and enemies of the Republic. We can’t look at everything with hindsight and rose-colored glasses. Would murdering Hitler in his 20s, espescially not knowing the future, have been a moral wrong? Yes. The same can be said for Palpatine, unfortunately.

Both in Catholic morality, and the morality established in the Star Wars setting, the Jedi were wrong. It’s a testament to Palpatine’s evil genious that he manipulated events to so perfectly fit his agenda while appearing morally upright. He didn’t even NEED to launch a propaganda campaign against the Jedi, because he had backed them into a corner and forced them to act in an evil and insurrectionist way.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

Actually, being a Sith Lord is not a crime. Sith is a religion, and there was nothing forbidding anyone from being Sith in the Rebublic. The Jedi simply don’t LIKE the Sith (and for good reasons), but being Sith was not a crime.

I understand that, and I agree, but I don’t think that’s the issue.

Ghosty:

Fact is, the Jedi did not know about Palpatine’s manipulation of the war, and were not acting against him on those grounds. That would be a morally good reason to have him arrested/strike him down if he resisted. Instead the Jedi were acting purely on (well founded, but illegal) religious intolerance. Mace is leading a political usurpation based on illegal religious prejudice against a very, very popular leader.

I disagree. The Jedi had every right to mave against the Chancellor even before they found out that he was a Sith Lord. Finding that information out after they were already on their way to arrest him only made the case that much more serious and urgent.

Listen to the dialogue:
*ANAKIN leaves the room. COMMANDER CODY’s hologram disappears.

MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.

MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move … the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.*

==============================================

*ANAKIN: Master Windu, I must talk to you.

MACE WINDU: What is it, Skywalker? We are in a hurry. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency powers back to the Senate.

ANAKIN: He won’t give up his power. I’ve just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU: A Sith Lord?

ANAKIN: Yes. The one we have been looking for.

MACE WINDU: How do you know this?

ANAKIN: He knows the ways of the Force. He has been trained to use the dark side.

MACE WINDU: Are you sure?

ANAKIN: Absolutely.

MACE WINDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.*

The thing is this: Palpatine’s term was over. He was way past his due time in office, with much more power than he should have ever had. The war was now over, and he was supposed to give up those powers, as promised. So they went to ensure that he did hand over his power. To enforce the law. But then they found out that he was a Sith Lord. They didn’t know that before. But now this means that Palpatine was the same Sith Lord who had been leading the Sepratists against teh Republic in the first place. He was now clearly a traitor to the Republic, and obviously not going to give up his power. Anakin even said so. It’s in the very nature of the Sith. So, armed with that knowledge, they went in to arrest him instead. It wasn’t religious prejudice/intolerance. It was a case of enforcing the law with a fanatically religious individual. And then Palpatine, being a Sith Lord, attacked them instead of backing down.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

Mace would NOT have been in the wrong in killing Palpatine right then because Palpatine was never disarmed. He had demonstrated the ability to SHOOT LIGHTING FROM HIS BODY AT WILL, and that counts as armed in my book. When someone shows an intent to harm, and doesn’t drop their weapon, it’s your duty to stop them in any way necessary to protect innocents. Since Palpatine couldn’t be disarmed, he had to be killed. Mace’s intention to strike him down after the fight was NOT evil under Catholic guidelines.

At least we agree on that. That makes sense to me too.

Ghosty:

…as Palpatine was acting in legitimate self-defense.

Another point. Can Palpatine even act in legitimate self defense? Can a guilty criminal morally defend himself from being brought to justice? Isn’t it in fact his moral obligation to not resist just punishment? Not that he would, of course…but it would certainly disqualify Palpatine’s attacks as “legitimate self-defense” against the Jedi.

Ghosty:

Would murdering Hitler in his 20s, espescially not knowing the future, have been a moral wrong? Yes. The same can be said for Palpatine, unfortunately.

Yes. BUT the difference here is that Palpatine is already a guilty criminal. Hitler in his 20’s, I’m guessing, most probably wasn’t. At this point, Palpatine had already commited a host of crimes.

To name a few:

1. Illegal blockade and invasion of his own home world, Naboo, in order to gain a sympathy vote to get himself elected as Supreme Chancellor.
2. Murder of Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn through his apprentice, Darth Maul.
3. Two counts of attempted murder of Senator Padme Amidala, for opposing the creation of an army to fight a war that he secretly wanted to start.
4. Starting a galactic war that killed millions of lives, only to keep himself in office and gain more power to control the Republic.
5. Treason against the Republic itself by leading the war against it, and conspiracy to purge the entire Jedi Order in order to eliminate his opposition.

Ghosty:

Both in Catholic morality, and the morality established in the Star Wars setting, the Jedi were wrong.

So, having now read my response, do you still stand by that as your final answer? Do you still think that the Jedi were in the wrong to move against Palpatine? (Don’t get me wrong, I think this is really turning out to be a great discussion, and I’m enjoying it. You’ve made some good points.) But you said it yourself: “Let’s assume, however, that they were right and things played out as we see in the movie. Mace would NOT have been in the wrong in killing Palpatine right then because Palpatine was never disarmed.” If we can agree that the Jedi were not moving against Palpatine for purely idealogical reasons, then it would seem that we agree on just about everything else.

 

[Ghosty]

I disagree. The Jedi had every right to mave against the Chancellor even before they found out that he was a Sith Lord. Finding that information out after they were already on their way to arrest him only made the case that much more serious and urgent.

They were originally going simply to ensure that Palpatine stepped down, but they turned it into an insurrection when they found out he was Sith. Remember, they went into the room and declared him under arrest, they didn’t ask him to step down first. Had they done as originally intended, I’d agree with you, but they decided to let their religious fears get the best of them rather than follow due process.

But then they found out that he was a Sith Lord. They didn’t know that before. But now this means that Palpatine was the same Sith Lord who had been leading the Sepratists against teh Republic in the first place.

They had no proof of this, however. It’s important that we not let our outside knowledge get the better of our analysis of the morality of the characters. As far as anyone knew, Dooku was the Sith Lord (“Sith Lords are our specialty”). This is evidenced by the fact that the Jedi thought the war was over when Grievous was killed; they did not believe, nor did they ever indicate even after discovering Palpatine’s religion, that he was in fact in command of the Seperatists. Again, this is the brilliance of his plot.

Another point. Can Palpatine even act in legitimate self defense? Can a guilty criminal morally defend himself from being brought to justice? Isn’t it in fact his moral obligation to not resist just punishment? Not that he would, of course…but it would certainly disqualify Palpatine’s attacks as “legitimate self-defense” against the Jedi.

Good point, but only for the movie audience. Palpatine WAS a criminal, but in the setting established, everyone thought he was acting in legitimate self-defense, and we must hold Mace Windu accountable for his own knowledge, not ours. I’m in no way arguing that Palpatine was actually in the right, only that Mace was wrong given what he knew. He went into the office under the pretenses of arresting a man based on religious beliefs.

Yes. BUT the difference here is that Palpatine is already a guilty criminal. Hitler in his 20’s, I’m guessing, most probably wasn’t. At this point, Palpatine had already commited a host of crimes.

But no one, including the Jedi Council, knew about his crimes. If a police officer kills a serial killer because he thinks the man is a homosexual, the officer is STILL guilty of a murderous hate crime, regardless of what we learn about the victim after the fact. Remember, it was Dooku who was the Sith leading the Seperatists, as far as everyone knew. There was absolutely nothing tying Palpatine to them at that point. Palpatine had the Jedi Order AND the Republic in check-mate.

So, having now read my response, do you still stand by that as your final answer? Do you still think that the Jedi were in the wrong to move against Palpatine?

Yes, because nothing indicates that they were moving against him for anything other than suspiscion and ideological differences. They didn’t know he was connected with the Seperatists, they didn’t know he had trained Darth Maul, they didn’t know he had tried to kill Padme. All they knew was that he was a very, very popular Sith Lord who had been given almost absolute authority in the Republic by massive popular acclaim. That was terrifying to the Jedi, because they knew that their lofty and safe position in the Republic would soon be at an end given the history between the Sith and the Jedi. Their ancient religious enemies had once again gained the popular support of the galaxy, and the popular suspiscion and dislike of Jedi would likely be allowed to return.

Remember, the Jedi were not a popular group of white-hats in the Republic, but highly mistrusted, if not always actively disliked. I see them moving to ensure that they didn’t have to go through a war to “prove” themselves again, regardless of the fact that they turned out to be right in the case of Palpatine. It’s important to realize that the prejudice the Jedi hold against the Sith is not widely spread throughout the Republic, as can be seen by the fact that Vader (and likely the Emperor) were very open about practicing the Sith faith.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

Remember, they went into the room and declared him under arrest, they didn’t ask him to step down first.

They don’t have to ask him to step down first if he’s a suspected traitor. At this point, they’re moving in as the law enforcers that they are with good reason to arrest him as a suspected traitor and imminent threat to the Republic…which is still valid.

Ghosty:

They had no proof of this, however. As far as anyone knew, Dooku was the Sith Lord (“Sith Lords are our specialty”). This is evidenced by the fact that the Jedi thought the war was over when Grievous was killed; they did not believe, nor did they ever indicate even after discovering Palpatine’s religion, that he was in fact in command of the Seperatists.

Yes, they did. Follow my logic here.

1. Dooku is a Sith Lord. He is allied with the Sepratists against the Republic.
2. There are always two Sith. A master, and apprentice.
3. Obi-Wan killed one of these two Sith. The one remaining must automatically step in to assume the role of master, if he/she is not already so.
4. Dooku must be the apprentice. He was a former Jedi who fell away from the Order, eventually to fill in the empty position that the vanquished Sith left behind.
5. Dooku himself told Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord had indeed managed to gain a large foothold of influence in the Republic Senate on Coruscant.
6. Dooku’s Sith master must also be allied with the Sepratists in some way. Master and apprentice must work together.
7. Anakin provides the final piece of the puzzle. Palpatine has finally revealed himself to be the one remaining Sith Lord. Which makes him a suspected Sepratist. Which makes him a suspected traitor. Which means the Jedi can move against him.

It should also be noted that this information is actually coming from a very close friend of the Chancellor…which only makes it all the more credible seeing as how much it must pain Anakin to actually admit to the Jedi that his closest friend has turned out to be an enemy who is unwilling to hand over his power.

And yes in fact the Jedi do have more evidence as to the crimes of Darth Sidious. They know what his Sith name is, but not his true identity. This information was revealed to them towards the end of the Clone Wars, when they intercepted a hologram transmission from Grievous to Sidious. In fact, one of the reasons Palpatine had himself abducted by the Sepratists was to draw attention away from the investigation of Darth Sidious. They were getting too close, so he needed a way to keep them off his trail for just a little while longer.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

I’m in no way arguing that Palpatine was actually in the right, only that Mace was wrong given what he knew. He went into the office under the pretenses of arresting a man based on religious beliefs.

No. He went into the office under the pretenses of arresting a man based on charges of treason. And while it is certainly doubtful as to whether or not the Jedi could have actually won this case in the corrupted legal system of the Rebublic, Palpatine’s unyielding resistance to the Jedi suggests instead that he might have had a genuine fear of being sucessfully convicted.

Ghosty:

But no one, including the Jedi Council, knew about his crimes. Remember, it was Dooku who was the Sith leading the Seperatists, as far as everyone knew. There was absolutely nothing tying Palpatine to them at that point.

If Palpatine is the one remaining Sith Lord, then that automatically makes him a Sepratist, and thus a traitor. He was about to be arrested as a suspect, but then blatantly confirmed it for the Jedi when he attacked. Mace clearly recognized that Palpatine was a traitor. He even tells Anakin flat out: “No, he is the traitor!” Not to mention the fact that (regardless of Qui-Gon’s death) Mace had personally witnessed Palpatine muder three other Jedi Knights who standing right next to him…which is in and of itself a crime punishable by law.

Ghosty:

It’s important to realize that the prejudice the Jedi hold against the Sith is not widely spread throughout the Republic, as can be seen by the fact that Vader (and likely the Emperor) were very open about practicing the Sith faith.

Another Question: How is it that you classify the Jedi’s view of the Sith a predjudice? Is it predjudicial for Catholics to hold Satan and all of his minions as natural enemies? Predjudice is actually an irrational fear of something because you do not properly understand it. The Jedi’s fear of the Sith is not irrational. The Dark Side itself is a real evil, not simply a percieved one.

And no, actually, we know that the Emperor did not openly practice his “faith” out in the public. No one, even in the Imperial Empire, really knew that he was a Sith. (Because, in fact, they never really knew what a Sith was in the first place.) Most people simply thought that Darth Vader was the last force-using warrior. The Emperor kept to himself mostly, ruling the Empire through fear from his residence from Coruscant, never having a true need to display his force powers to anyone else. He let Darth Vader do all of the dirty work for him.