Moral Dilemma in Star Wars Episode III

[Ghosty]

They don’t have to ask him to step down first if he’s a suspected traitor. At this point, they’re moving in as the law enforcers that they are with good reason to arrest him as a suspected traitor and imminent threat to the Republic…which is still valid.

How did they know he was a traitor? The ONLY thing they knew was that he was Sith.

There’s nothing that says that a Sith couldn’t infiltrate the Jedi Order. Two Sith could have been Darth Maul and Count Dooku quite easily. Given the fact that the Jedi believed that Grievous was the final obstacle, and not some unnamed Sith Lord, I suspect they believed Dooku was the Sith behind the curtain the whole time. Notice they never said “Now we have to hunt down the Sith Lord commanding Grievous” after the death of Dooku. No, they said that when Grievous was dead, the war would end.

Again, you’re reading too much into what WE know as the audience. Dooku was a Sith Lord, the Sith work in pairs, Darth Maul and Dooku were killed. That’s two Sith, both working for the Seperatists. Bag 'em and tag 'em, and lets mop up their cyborg general and call it a day. That’s exactly how the Jedi were acting. Incidently, the Sith DON’T actually solely work in pairs, that’s just the tradition since they were overthrown.

If they had said anything against Palpatine as the leader of the Seperatists, I’d have to agree with you, but they didn’t. That accusation never once appears in any of the movies. They were not working on that assumption at any time. I admit I haven’t seen much of Clone Wars, but in the movie they clearly did not accuse Palpatine of leading the Seperatists. All they had was that Anakin told them that Palpatine was a Sith.

No. He went into the office under the pretenses of arresting a man based on charges of treason. And while it is certainly doubtful as to whether or not the Jedi could have actually won this case in the corrupted legal system of the Rebublic, Palpatine’s unyielding resistance to the Jedi suggests instead that he might have had a genuine fear of being sucessfully convicted.

He had no evidence, though, and that’s the problem. They went armed into the Chancellors office and demanded he abdicate and surrender. Furthermore, the Jedi are NOT a legal body that goes around arresting people; this was not their job to be doing. They went in there themselves because a) they wanted to see Palpatine removed from power (and Mace wanted the Council to take over the government, which he himself stated), and b) they wanted to personally deal with their religious enemy. They were acting illegally from the word go, and they knew it. Who gave them the authority to arrest anyone? Who gave them the authority to even try and persuade the Chancellor to step down? They were acting completely on their own, even plotting to replace the Chancellor with the Council after taking him down.

If Palpatine is the one remaining Sith Lord, then that automatically makes him a Sepratist, and thus a traitor.

This is pure speculation, however. No one knew if he was the one remaining Sith Lord, no one even knew how many Sith were running around. Remember, initially they thought that they had already destroyed the Sith with Dooku, since all talk of the Sith controlling the Seperatists ended with his death.

He even tells Anakin flat out: “No, he is the traitor!” Not to mention the fact that (regardless of Qui-Gon’s death) Mace had personally witnessed Palpatine muder three other Jedi Knights who standing right next to him…which is in and of itself a crime punishable by law.

First off, this was AFTER Mace had led an insurrection against the legally ordained Chancellor. Mace was acting morally at that point, but everything leading up to that moment had been arrogance and questionable intentions (taking over the Senate). If you break into someone’s house, you can’t justify your break in when you catch and stop him beating his wife. You are still a criminal, you still did an evil thing. Same is the case with the Jedi.

 

[Ghosty]

How is it that you classify the Jedi’s view of the Sith a predjudice? Is it predjudicial for Catholics to hold Satan and all of his minions as natural enemies? Predjudice is actually an irrational fear of something because you do not properly understand it. The Jedi’s fear of the Sith is not irrational. The Dark Side itself is a real evil, not simply a percieved one.

The Sith are a LOT more complicated than that, though, and always have been. Sith are not about cackling madly and killing innocents, they’re about personal mastery through will and passion. The Sith religion doesn’t even revolve around the Force; in the past there were many more non-Force using Sith than there were Sith Lords. The Force is only important because it’s another stage of mastery. The Force is a tool, and the Sith consider it to be morally neutral, hence they draw on the “Dark” and the “Light” sides. The Jedi perception of the Force is not the only one, nor is it necessarily the correct one. Most other Force users in the Star Wars universe have little to no concept of “Light” and “Dark” sides of the Force. When Sith speak of the Dark Side, they’re usually speaking to people who understand Jedi terms, not because they believe they themselves are necessarily darker or evil. Remember, Anakin is always about bringing peace and stability to the galaxy, never destroying it. The problem with the Sith is that their means corrupt their ends, assuming they have good ends in mind to begin with (which many of them don’t because they abandon all concepts of good and evil in the quest for power). The Jedi prejudice is that Sith are all evil people who need to be stopped, which was historically not the case. When the Sith controlled the galaxy, most Sith were regular folks, likely not much different than the typical American with an individualist streak. Very few of them were actively “evil”.

That being said, I think the Sith religion is a bad thing because of the moral greyness it pushes. It’s the ultimate in relativism-meets-Machiavellianism-meets-Nietche. Scary stuff, but nothing remotely like active Satan worship. I would certainly stand against it, and anything like it.

 

[BJRumph]

Not to interrupt the discussion, but I have a question regarding Ghosty’s premise of discrimination.

Ghosty, you seem to think that the Republic enjoys the same (or reasonably similar) freedom of religion that is made legal in the US.

However, as the Republic holds the Jedi Order as a legitimate arm of the government, it would not be out of line, I should think, to suggest that either

1.) The Rebublic does not have a true freedom of religion as conceived in our world;

2.) Or the Rebublic, and the Order for that matter, do not consider the Jedi to be a religious institution, and such a “notion of the ignorant” did not come into being until years after the Empire, as seen in Episode IV.

The Jedi are not a mercenary force or some exterior entity, but a part of the Republic’s government; as such, any opposing religion would likely be legally suppressed. Such is the natural consequence of a government which unites with a particular religious institution. If the Republic held to an American idea of freedom of religion, it could not utilize the Jedi as their peacekeeping forces, let alone “tolerate” their interferance in the Republic’s dealings.

In sum, given the ideologies of the Sith philosophy, and very importantly, its history in the galaxy, as well as the actual legal status of the Jedi in the Republic; it would be quite likely that Republic would most likely have “anti-Sith” legalization.

Therefore, I think it likely that Mace would have felt quite confident in being backed up from a legal standpoint in going after Sidious as a Sith, and was not just acting on an ideological discrimination.

Just my two newbie cents

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

How did they know he was a traitor? The ONLY thing they knew was that he was Sith.

I don’t understand why this is so complicated.
First Premise: Sith = Sepratist
Second Premise: Sepratist = Traitor
Logical Conclusion: Sith = Traitor
And the confusion we have here is…???

Ghosty:

There’s nothing that says that a Sith couldn’t infiltrate the Jedi Order. Two Sith could have been Darth Maul and Count Dooku quite easily.

Absolutely not! You simply cannot successfully lead a double life as both a faithful Jedi who was raised in the Temple and a Sith Lord. The Jedi knew this was impossible. Way beyond impossible. Yoda had trained Dooku, and knew him very well. The Sith could certainly conceal themselves, such as Palpatine had done amongst the senators, but not as a faithful Jedi. Dooku was indeed raised in the Jedi Temple since early childhood, and was one of the best Jedi amongst the Order. It was only after he began to sense the looming corruption in the Republic that he decided to leave, considering it beyond all hope of recovery. The Jedi knew why he had left. The only thing they didn’t know until the Battle of Geonosis was that Dooku had since entered under the tutelage of a Sith Lord. And besides the fact, even assuming that your suggestion were to be true (which is completely ridiculous in the first place), there had been over ten years since the death of Darth Maul. More than enough time for alleged-Jedi-while simultaneously-Sith-Lord-Count-Dooku to have taken on a new apprentice. There have to be two Sith, or else they are in too great a danger of simply being wiped out altogether if one is eliminated. So, nice try, but no…you’re really grasping at straws here.

Ghosty:

Given the fact that the Jedi believed that Grievous was the final obstacle, and not some unnamed Sith Lord, I suspect they believed Dooku was the Sith behind the curtain the whole time. Notice they never said “Now we have to hunt down the Sith Lord commanding Grievous” after the death of Dooku.
No one knew if he was the one remaining Sith Lord, no one even knew how many Sith were running around. Remember, initially they thought that they had already destroyed the Sith with Dooku, since all talk of the Sith controlling the Seperatists ended with his death.

The Republic believed that Grievous was the final obstacle. And from a certain point of view, he was. With Grievous gone, the Sepratists would have lost their greatest milirary leader, and their forces would have dissolved. But the Jedi did know that there was another Sith Lord out there. By this point, they had even learned his name. But until Anakin came to them with the information, they didn’t have any more clues as to his location. They assumed that as long as Grievous was eliminated, this Sith Lord would simply have been forced back into the shadows, only to re-surface again at another point later. Perhaps they would have continuted their investigation separately, as a follow-up to the immediate war. Little did they understand how deep Palpatine’s plan ran, however…and that in fact he had already taken all of these facts into consideration.

Ghosty:

Dooku was a Sith Lord, the Sith work in pairs, Darth Maul and Dooku were killed. That’s two Sith, both working for the Seperatists.

Another Note: Darth Maul wasn’t working for the Sepratists, because they didn’t exist yet. Only after Dooku left the Jedi Order did the Sepratist faction begin to take root.

Ghosty:

If they had said anything against Palpatine as the leader of the Seperatists, I’d have to agree with you, but they didn’t. All they had was that Anakin told them that Palpatine was a Sith.

Then why would Mace have ever labeled Palpatine as a traitor!?!?
They don’t have time to spell everythiong out for us word-for-word in the movies. Notice that Palpatine never had to ask them why he was under arrest. He knew. He knew very well. Anakin had told him that he would inform the Jedi. And they themselves immediately knew from his response that they had the right guy backed into a corner. And yes, Anakin told them he was a Sith. And logic tells them that this Sith = Dooku’s Master = Sepratist = Traitor. Simple. A legal enforcement of the law therefore becomes an arrest of an accused traitor.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

He had no evidence, though, and that’s the problem.

They have enough evidence to make a case. Dooku was a Sith. Dooku was a Sepratist. Dooku’s master is a Sith. Dooku’s master is a Sepratist. Palpatine is a Sith. Palpatine is a Sepratist. Palpatine is a traitor. It’s logical evidence. And they have the moral certainty necessary to operate under these premises, as there’s never been an exception to them yet. And I’m sure that there’s plenty of other physical evidence that their post-war investigation could have come up with for the trial itself. But if he’s been the one accused (essentially self-proclaimed guilty) of these extremely serious allegations, then the Jedi don’t need the physical evidence in order to move against him to defend the Republic.

Ghosty:

They went armed into the Chancellors office and demanded he abdicate and surrender.

No, they didn’t…they simply placed him under arrest as an accused traitor of the Republic.

Ghosty:

Furthermore, the Jedi are NOT a legal body that goes around arresting people; this was not their job to be doing.

Yes it was! That’s why they are the guardians of the Republic. They have been given the legal power to enforce the law, which includes placing any people under arrest for serious crimes against the Republic that they deem necessary, in order to keep the peace. They are the special security forces of the Republic.

Ghosty:

…Mace wanted the Council to take over the government, which he himself stated…even plotting to replace the Chancellor with the Council after taking him down.

1. It was actually Ki-Adi-Mundi who suggested the idea first.
2. They only intend to take control of the Senate temporarily as the replacement government until the legal powers can be returned to their proper place in the Senate, and a new Supreme Chancellor elected. They have the legal power to do this, if they must.

Again, here’s the scene for reference:​

*ANAKIN leaves the room. COMMANDER CODY’s hologram disappears.

MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.

MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move … the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition …

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: … and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm… great care we must take.*​

Ghosty:

Who gave them the authority to arrest anyone?

The Republic.

Ghosty:

Who gave them the authority to even try and persuade the Chancellor to step down?

The Republic.

Ghosty:

First off, this was AFTER Mace had led an insurrection against the legally ordained Chancellor.

Legally ordained…and self-proclaimed Sith. Which makes him a traitor. Which makes him a criminal. Which means he can be arrested.

 

[masterjedi747]

Ghosty:

The Sith religion doesn’t even revolve around the Force; in the past there were many more non-Force using Sith than there were Sith Lords.

That’s only because the Sith were originally a race of people on another planet, until the anti-Jedi and anti-Republic Dark Jedi infaction folowing from the Great Schism took over their civilization and exploited it towards their own ends against the Republic.

Ghosty:

The Force is a tool, and the Sith consider it to be morally neutral, hence they draw on the “Dark” and the “Light” sides. The Jedi perception of the Force is not the only one, nor is it necessarily the correct one.

And that neutral view of the Force itself is actually the more correct version. It is a tool, but more accutately a gift. The Jedi simply see it as important to make that distinction between what constitutes “light” and “dark” actions in order to avoid indifferrence towards the natural moral code. The force is not suddenly a valid excuse to be selfish or murderous, etc…

Ghosty:

Most other Force users in the Star Wars universe have little to no concept of “Light” and “Dark” sides of the Force.

I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here. Most “other force-users in the Star Wars universe” are Jedi. The other relatively minor percentage known are Sith or Dark Jedi. There’s not much else out there…

Ghosty:

The Jedi prejudice is that Sith are all evil people who need to be stopped, which was historically not the case. When the Sith controlled the galaxy, most Sith were regular folks, likely not much different than the typical American with an individualist streak. Very few of them were actively “evil”.

Again, that’s because very few of them were actually Dark Jedi. Most of the other were just ordinary people, until their race was infiltrated and ultimately obliterated by the Dark Jedi. Eventually, the only Sith that remained were the force-users. And historically, the Sith are the enemies of the Republic. More information: Using their training in the Force, the Dark Jedi amazed the Sith and elevated themselves to god-like status on Korriban, becoming the rulers of the Sith people. As years passed, and interbreeding occured between the Dark Jedi and the Sith, the term “Sith” came to mean not the original insect-like inhabitants of Korriban, but their Dark Jedi masters as well. It is from this rise to power and integration into Sith culture that the term Dark Lord of the Sith was first conceived as a title bestowed upon the leader of the Sith Empire by a council of lesser Sith Lords.

Ghosty:

That being said, I think the Sith religion is a bad thing because of the moral greyness it pushes. It’s the ultimate in relativism-meets-Machiavellianism-meets-Nietche. I would certainly stand against it, and anything like it.

So would the Jedi. That’s why the Jedi and Sith are natural enemies. Because it is inherently evil and contrary to truth. Wouldn’t it in fact be the moral obligation of the Jedi to be opposed to it? But then if it’s infiltating the Republic…suddenly they can’t morally resist it? I understand that legally it might not work out…but morally? Just another point to consider, although ultimately irrelevant to the overall direction of the discussion.

 

[marszale]

Thanks for this thread! I was troubled by Mace’s actions, too, and this has helped clarify things. I agree that Mace was justified in arresting Palpatine, and I disagree that he was motivated by unrighteous religious hatred. It is the duty of the good to oppose evil, and the Jedi are the good opposed to the evil Sith. It even makes a certain amount of sense, in that the Sith arose from a corrupting of the Jedi, just as in real life, Satan and all his works are a corruption of what God has created.

 

[marszale]

Of course, this leads me to two things that trouble me about Lucas’ Star Wars universe:

1. It seems to support Dualism, in that good and evil are equal and exact opposites embodied in the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. This is contrary to Catholic teaching, which states that good is greater than evil, and in fact, evil cannot exist without the consent of God through His indulgence of free will.
2. It also seems to support Pantheism, or the idea that God (ie: the Force) is everything, the universe itself. Rather, in Church teaching, God is seperate and greater than the universe, having existed before it and created it.

Can anyone allay my misgivings?

 

[masterjedi747]

Yeah, sure. Here’s how I deal with it.

1. It seems to support Dualism, in that good and evil are equal and exact opposites embodied in the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. This is contrary to Catholic teaching, which states that good is greater than evil, and in fact, evil cannot exist without the consent of God through His indulgence of free will.

1. It also seems to support Pantheism, or the idea that God (ie: the Force) is everything, the universe itself. Rather, in Church teaching, God is seperate and greater than the universe, having existed before it and created it.

God exists. Period. He must exist. I think we all understand that much.
The Force is not God. It is simply a “natural energy field” that certain people are gifted with being able to harness through the presence of midi-chloirans in their body. That’s all. It’s a neutral tool, referred to as such as the “Unifying Force”, that can be used for either good or evil, just like any other tool. The reference to it’s “light” and “dark” sides are simply a conventional method for determining the natural morality of certain actions and motives.

When a Jedi gains the ability to become a Force ghost (which is, it should be noted, only a temporary ability), God is simply allowing them the ability to harness the Force to keep their soul hanging around the universe for a while longer, in order to finish up on some unfinished business. After their time is up, however, then they have to move on to either heaven, hell (although for most Jedi, I would doubt it), or (most likely) Purgatory.

The only other thing is that the Force could technically have a slightly more spiritual aspect to it, as when Jedi refer to the “will of the Force”. I think the best explanation for this is that God, perhaps the Holy Spirit, could be using the Force (which He would have created and given to them as a tool) as a natural means of manifesting his Divine Providence, which the Jedi can recognize being played out, although they do not completely understand yet what it is.

And that’s about all. Let me know if it helps, or if you have any more questions!

 

[masterjedi747]

If nothing else, I think the deciding factor is going to be when we get the video commentary by George Lucas on the ROTS DVD later this year. Hopefully he’ll be able to shed some light on the situation for us. Because if he disagrees with my reasons for arguing that Mace went to arrest Palpatine for treason…well then it doesn’t really matter what I’ve said, does it?

So, depending on what other information we find out about this particular situation, I could still be wrong. And Ghosty could still be right. I think there’s reasonable arguments that go both ways here, primarily because we don’t know quite enough about the character’s thoughts and motives for sure. We’re just left to make up our own minds for right now…without a definitive authority to say one way or another for certain…so we all come up with our own different “translations” of the exact same source…sounds kinda familiar, huh? cough

 

[Bobby_Jim]

marszale:

Of course, this leads me to two things that trouble me about Lucas’ Star Wars universe:

1. It seems to support Dualism, in that good and evil are equal and exact opposites embodied in the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. This is contrary to Catholic teaching, which states that good is greater than evil, and in fact, evil cannot exist without the consent of God through His indulgence of free will.
2. It also seems to support Pantheism, or the idea that God (ie: the Force) is everything, the universe itself. Rather, in Church teaching, God is seperate and greater than the universe, having existed before it and created it.

Can anyone allay my misgivings?

Yes, it’s easier if you don’t treat the story as an allegory, and look for one-to-one correspondence between things in the story, and things in real life, or in our faith. Because if you try, you will end up with a jumbled mish-mash of nonsense and heresy.

I think the proper way to approach the story is as a myth. Take as a given that the world of the story works the way it does, and look for thematic elements. You find a world in which good is objectively preferable to evil - they aren’t just flip sides of the same coin, with neither preferable to the other. Evil is done by those who think they are pursuing good (e.g Anakin wants to secure peace, and to end suffering and death), but their perception of good is twisted by selfish or dark motives, and their means of seeking good are perverted, and great evil and suffering results. Or in other words, ends don’t justify means. Good wins over evil precisely because it is good - the values of courage and compassion, selflessness and honor are objectively superior to the methods of the dark side, which involve coersion, treachery, and domination, and good will always win in the end because of it.

So if you don’t focus on the specific details of The Force and the fortune cookie philosophy which is not meant to be taken too seriously, but instead look for the larger themes, you come out with something that is compatible with Christianity.

Similar to* Lord of the Rings* - it’s a very Christian story in what at first glance appears to be an overtly pagan setting. Star Wars is not quite at that level of sophistication, but you can understand the religious and moral dimension of the story in a similary way.

 

[ironmonk]

masterjedi747:

Forgive me for not posting off-topic with this question.
But it is a morality question, so I wanted it to go here.
And PLEASE don’t just ignore this thread completely!

Hopefully this won’t take too long, but unfortunately it is a very complicated argument. I would appreciate help from anyone out there who is interested in tackling difficult moral theology questions…with a sci-fi twist.

For anyone out there who has seen Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith:
Was Mace Windu’s decision to attempt to kill Chancellor Palpatine morally acceptable?

For those of you who may not know what I am talking about, and even those of you who do, I will provide links to few pages of the discussion so far, with the relative posts:

Page 7: Just read my post – MasterJedi747.
Page 8: Just read from top of page down to my post. Ignore any anti-Bush jabbing.
Page 9 and Page 10: Skim through these if you have time, but not necessary.
Page 11: Read two posts by Violetsaber.
Page 12: Read posts by Master_Shaitan, Invictus_Sol, and MasterJedi747.
Page 13: Read first half of page, down to just past my second post.
Page 14: Read posts by Master_Shaitan and MasterJedi747.

I have held my position so far that it was morally acceptable. But I would like to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from other faithful Catholics, to see if I’m holding out on a valid position here.

I think it was totally acceptable given the fact that Palpatine was faking being down. He faked it because Anakin was watching - He could feel Anakin on his way there. Remember what Palpatine said to Anakin in the beginning about killing Dooku. Then Palpatine used the “Sith” mind trick voice to influance Anakin to do it. We have to remember that Palpatine is the equivilant to Satan in this movie. If Anakin wasn’t on his way, Palpatine would have killed Mace quicker.

Mace made the mistake of pausing instead of following through when the energy stopped. We have to remember, Palpatine was close to beating Yoda.

The Jedi Council had the legal authority to do what Mace was trying and to protect society Palpatine had to die. No prison would be able to hold him, nor any gaurd be able to keep him.

 

[masterjedi747]

ironmonk:

I think it was totally acceptable given the fact that Palpatine was faking being down. He faked it because Anakin was watching - He could feel Anakin on his way there.

Well, that’s just the thing. We certainly know that Palpatine was faking…but did Mace know it? Does it even matter? I think those are the questions that need the most answering/discussion.

ironmonk:

Mace made the mistake of pausing instead of following through when the energy stopped.

Interesting…So he was, in a way, being too compassionate towards Palpatine, and got burned (quite literally) for it when Palpatine finally revealed that he had been faking all along.