Moral Dilemma # Umpteen

  • Thread starter Thread starter Doc_Keele
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Doc -

If you take your wife for a vacation at the grand canyon, will you see how close to the edge you can get her before she falls over?

Why do you keep making up these “how far can I go” questions? Why not just live a Godly life?
 
kage_ar said:
Doc -

If you take your wife for a vacation at the grand canyon, will you see how close to the edge you can get her before she falls over?

Why do you keep making up these “how far can I go” questions? Why not just live a Godly life?
Click to expand...
So you missed the part about this being a real life scenario?
I haven’t made this up.

I count being Godly lying to save someone’s life;you don’t. Your implication that I’m not trying to live a Godly life is not in line with Church teaching.
 
Doc_Keele said:
We don’t - I would say that even if there is a reasonable possibility that the man will die it would be morally permissible on grounds of necessity. Only if his death is virtually certain would it be impermissible (R v. Dudley and Stephens).
Click to expand...
I would regard his death as virtually certain and still say he needs to be pushed if he is preventing others from escaping.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Ahem:rolleyes:
from the OP
Click to expand...
No need for the eye roll. I’m just trying to understand the situation before commenting on it. Since this is a real-life scenario, could you post a link to a story that describes it more fully?

Let me see if I am understanding this correctly. The boat has overturned, and now all the passengers are trapped under the boat. So now they need to climb up the rope ladder to get out of the water and wait for rescue. Is that correct?
 
The only way you can save his life is if you throw him back in the water to chill out a little while and then try and save him once everyone is safe. So really by throwing him in you are making sure that he has a small chance of survival vs. almost certain death.
 
Doc_Keele said:
So you missed the part about this being a real life scenario?
I haven’t made this up.

I count being Godly lying to save someone’s life;you don’t. Your implication that I’m not trying to live a Godly life is not in line with Church teaching.
Click to expand...
Why do you ask these questions?

Would Jesus push someone out of a boat or off a rope or in front of a moving train or whatever far-fetched scenario?

Re-read what I asked, I asked why not just live a godly life, avoid sin, go to Confession when you fall and stop daydreaming up these “how close to the edge can I get” situations.
 
This is a situation with the moral equivalent of the 4 people in the lifeboat with only enough food and water to enable 3 to survive.

The moral question is, “is it morally acceptable to cause another’s death to preserve your own”, when that person is not trying to cause harm to you or purposefully cause your death (in which case self-defense would be clearly in play).

That is, making the assumption that the people lower down on the ladder would have a certainty of dying (that isn’t clear from the OP) or that there is no other way of getting that person out of the way i.e. someone climbing down the rope ladder and tying a rope around the guy, then pushing him out of the way, letting the other people climb up, and then hauling him out by his rope.

I presume that because it’s a moral question. that alternate methods of rescue, such as I described, were not available.
 
KostyaJMJ said:
The only way you can save his life is if you throw him back in the water to chill out a little while and then try and save him once everyone is safe. So really by throwing him in you are making sure that he has a small chance of survival vs. almost certain death.
Click to expand...
That would be morally acceptable.

However, if there were a good certainty of his death (he’s exhausted, the waves were too big to fish him out, the water too cold, the boat was drifting or moving, etc.), then it would be morally unacceptable.

It is never acceptable to cause the death of an innocent person to save your own life, and in this case, “innocent” means that the guy stuck on the rope ladder were innocent of trying to cause you harm.
 
Doc_Keele said:
We don’t - I would say that even if there is a reasonable possibility that the man will die it would be morally permissible on grounds of necessity. Only if his death is virtually certain would it be impermissible (R v. Dudley and Stephens).
Click to expand...
Are you asking if this is morally or legally permissible? Legal permissibility does not affect the morality of an act, except that it may be immoral to commit a legal act.
 
Newbie2 said:
Not moral to kill someone to save another life, unless it is in self-defense.
Click to expand...
I maintain that it is self-defense.

This is quite different from your lifeboat example.
They would be arbitrarily choosing one of the four to starve so that the others could have more food, instead of rationing out the food.

The man on the ladder is preventing the others from escaping.
It is not arbitrary.
Everyone is not being given an equal chance to survive.
And most importantly, this man is taking an action (blocking escape) to prevent the others from surviving.
 
SugarMagnolia said:
I maintain that it is self-defense.

This is quite different from your lifeboat example.
They would be arbitrarily choosing one of the four to starve so that the others could have more food, instead of rationing out the food.

The man on the ladder is preventing the others from escaping.
It is not arbitrary.
Everyone is not being given an equal chance to survive.
And most importantly, this man is taking an action (blocking escape) to prevent the others from surviving.
Click to expand...
You think throwing the unlucky sap in (my) lifeboat comparison overboard IS being given an equal chance to survive?

I would agree with you if the man on the rope ladder is consciously making an effort to block the escape of others. Perhaps he was, but that’s not how I read the situation.
 
Newbie2 said:
You think throwing the unlucky sap in (my) lifeboat comparison overboard IS being given an equal chance to survive?

I would agree with you if the man on the rope ladder is consciously making an effort to block the escape of others. Perhaps he was, but that’s not how I read the situation.
Click to expand...
No, the guy on the ladder was not consciously blocking the escape of others - he wanted to escape but was paralysed by cold and fear.
 
Doc_Keele said:
No, the guy on the ladder was not consciously blocking the escape of others - he wanted to escape but was paralysed by cold and fear.
Click to expand...
That’s how I read it. 👍

Let me put forth a similar scenario:

There’s bus crash and the bus is teetering on the side of a cliff. 5 people are trying to get out of the bus, the only way out is to jump out of the bus onto a little outcropping, but it takes a conscious effort i.e. you cannot just sort of fall out or get pushed out onto this outcropping. A child is standing in the doorway, afraid to jump, having seen certain death below him if he misses. The bus is slipping over the cliff. The only way for other passengers behind him to save themselves is to push him out, to his death, and jump for themselves (they can’t just push him out to safety, nor can they grab hold of him and jump, etc.)

Is it moral to push this child out of the way, to his death, to save yourself if you are one of the other passengers?
 
kage_ar said:
Why do you ask these questions?
Click to expand...
Why is it a problem?
Would Jesus push someone out of a boat or off a rope or in front of a moving train or whatever far-fetched scenario?
Click to expand...
Absolutely nothing far-fetched about this at all, this actually happened. Matter of record.
]Re-read what I asked, I asked why not just live a godly life, avoid sin, go to Confession when you fall and stop daydreaming up these “how close to the edge can I get” situations.
Click to expand...
I think it’s you needs to re-read what I wrote. What is “how close to the edge can I get” about this real life moral dilemma? Nothing at all.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Absolutely nothing far-fetched about this at all, this actually happened. Matter of record.
Click to expand...
Do you mind giving us some specific as to this actual event or is there some purpose in being secretive about it?
 
Doc_Keele said:
Who’s being secretive?:confused:
Click to expand...
I didn’t mean that as an accusation. You have repeatedly mentioned that this scenario is a true-life example, but you haven’t given any specifics. Being the curious sort, I wondered if this exclusion was by accident or design.

For all I know, you are planning some big reveal at the end of the thread so you could say “…and now you know the rest of the story.” 😉
 
OK 👍
You mean details of the incident?
No, no grand reveal - the main limit was my ability to type:)
The incident was the Herald of Free Enterprisedisaster, I got the incident from a legal paper on the doctrine of necessity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top