Moral dilemma.

[Betterave]

No, I put forth the example of the immorality of Homosexuality - can you give an example of the immorality of homosexuality outside a religious context? An appeal to religion is the equivalent of “cuz God says so”.

Do you consider homosexuality immoral absolute? If so, please explain how it absolute outside a religious context.

You are still dodging - How do we know that absolutes exist? How do we determine them?

You made a claim. I say your claim is false. You insist it is not. I ask you to back up your claim. You refuse and try to change the subject by going on the offensive, specifically by repeating the same dumb questions that I’ve already answered.

If that’s the level of intellectual honesty you’re gonna go with here, I’m done. I’m happy to answer your objections, but not when you refuse to answer mine.

 

[jonfawkes]

You made a claim. I say your claim is false. You insist it is not. I ask you to back up your claim. You refuse and try to change the subject by going on the offensive, specifically by repeating the same dumb questions that I’ve already answered.

If that’s the level of intellectual honesty you’re gonna go with here, I’m done. I’m happy to answer your objections, but not when you refuse to answer mine.

Take any catholic philosopher that argues against homosexuality, and it is religiously based - any one take your pick. 'Natural Law" is a religious position not a secular nor a scientific one.

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

 

[davidv]

this is your post 100 -

I have already responded to this - There are absolutes in the context of religion but religion is a subjective viewpoint. Which makes them fit the relative model.

The group who’s view you are putting forth is the Catholic Church’s view. It’s relative to the Church.

Frankly, I don’t have clue what you are trying to say.
You have provided nothing other than your say so, that any of what you said is true.
Therefore I cannot respond any further.

 

[jonfawkes]

Frankly, I don’t have clue what you are trying to say.
You have provided nothing other than your say so, that any of what you said is true.
Therefore I cannot respond any further.

Meta-ethical Relativism says -

Justifications for moral judgments are not universal, but are instead relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of an individual or a group of people.[1] The meta-ethical relativist might say “It’s moral to me, because I believe it is”.[2]

per the definition I provided.

I am saying that the Catholic Church is a group of people, and has, a set of traditions, with convictions and practices. It’s morality falls with in this definition of relative morality.

In this way we can account for the differences between Catholic Morality and the morality of different groups.

The claim of absolutes in Catholic Morality is valid claim in the context of Catholic Morality. “We as Catholics, hold this standard”

People who are outside the church don’t hold themselves to this standard. They hold themselves to a different standard.

Their standard can be simply dismissed as “well they’re just wrong”.

There is no objective way to determine who is correct. Faith can be a determining factor “I believe my faith is correct and absolute”

The problem is There is no way to measure faith. There is no way to determine is greater faith equals truth.

The only way to say something is absolute is to have faith that it is. Faith is can’t be a objective determining factor because faith is subjective. All morality is subjective and therefore relative.

 

[Sirach_4]

Did adam and eve’s children committ incest? I doubt it. There is really no good reason to take that story literally. And the second creation story says that God created a race of adam and a race of eve. Also, God gave cain (or was it seth) a wife, which implies there were other people around.

We are required to believe as Catholics that there was an original man (Adam) and an original woman (Eve) and all humans descend from this original man and woman. Jewish tradition holds that Adam & Eve had 33 sons and 22 or 23 daughters. It is a necessary conclusion that they procreated with each other. This “incest” is not prohibited until the time of Moses as far as I know.

 

[davidv]

Meta-ethical Relativism says -

per the definition I provided.

I am saying that the Catholic Church is a group of people, and has, a set of traditions, with convictions and practices. It’s morality falls with in this definition of relative morality.

In this way we can account for the differences between Catholic Morality and the morality of different groups.

The claim of absolutes in Catholic Morality is valid claim in the context of Catholic Morality. “We as Catholics, hold this standard”

People who are outside the church don’t hold themselves to this standard. They hold themselves to a different standard.

Their standard can be simply dismissed as “well they’re just wrong”.

There is no objective way to determine who is correct. Faith can be a determining factor “I believe my faith is correct and absolute”

The problem is There is no way to measure faith. There is no way to determine is greater faith equals truth.

The only way to say something is absolute is to have faith that it is. Faith is can’t be a objective determining factor because faith is subjective. All morality is subjective and therefore relative.

The Catholic Church is a divine institution established by the Son of God.

The morality taught by the Church is grounded in the one true absolute - God.

Any morality based on this absolute is objective, not relative.

The faith of the faithful can be measured by their love and the fruit they produce.

Anyone can say this is wrong. However, their saying so doesn’t make it so.

Conclusion: What you keep saying is false.

 

[jonfawkes]

The Catholic Church is a divine institution established by the Son of God.

The morality taught by the Church is grounded in the one true absolute - God.

Any morality based on this absolute is objective, not relative.

The faith of the faithful can be measured by their love and the fruit they produce.

Anyone can say this is wrong. However, their saying so doesn’t make it so.

Conclusion: What you keep saying is false.

I agree with everything you’ve said but… it’s only true for Catholics.

 

[davidv]

I agree with everything you’ve said but… it’s only true for Catholics.

Why?

 

[jonfawkes]

Why?

Because they are matters of faith, every statement. So only applicable to those that have and keep that faith.

 

[davidv]

Because they are matters of faith, every statement. So only applicable to those that have and keep that faith.

The Son of God is Truth.

The Church teaches truth (=conformity with fact or reality; verity: *the truth of a *statement). Truth is. Truth does not vary. Truth is independent of faith or knowledge.
Truth is absolute.

 

[jonfawkes]

The Son of God is Truth.

The Church teaches truth (=conformity with fact or reality; verity: *the truth of a *statement). Truth is. Truth does not vary. Truth is independent of faith or knowledge.
Truth is absolute.

Why do you believe the Son of God is the the Truth? It is faith.

Other religions have faith they are true. You believe those religions are false because you have faith that yours is true.

There is no way to resolve matters of faith objectively. Faith is true to those who believe and false who don’t.

 

[davidv]

Why do you believe the Son of God is the the Truth? It is faith.

Other religions have faith they are true. You believe those religions are false because you have faith that yours is true.

There is no way to resolve matters of faith objectively. Faith is true to those who believe and false who don’t.

Would you kindly not tell me why I believe things.

I have faith based on irrefuteable evidence. Faith that truth exists. Faith that the Holy Spirit can soften the hardest of hearts.

 

[jonfawkes]

Would you kindly not tell me why I believe things.

I have faith based on irrefuteable evidence. Faith that truth exists. Faith that the Holy Spirit can soften the hardest of hearts.

In the face of this irrefutable evidence why are there non-christians in the world.

There are people of great faith in other religions - how could it be in the light of irrefutable evidence. Even if you limit it to people that live in the USA - who obviously have at least heard about Jesus. Shouldn’t the whole US be Catholic in light of this irrefutable evidence.

Like religions there are many languages - which language is correct and true?

Bread, pan, Challa, mantou, morgenbrød what is the “true” word.

 

[davidv]

In the face of this irrefutable evidence why are there non-christians in the world.

There are people of great faith in other religions - how could it be in the light of irrefutable evidence. Even if you limit it to people that live in the USA - who obviously have at least heard about Jesus. Shouldn’t the whole US be Catholic in light of this irrefutable evidence.

Like religions there are many languages - which language is correct and true?

Bread, pan, Challa, mantou, morgenbrød what is the “true” word.

Another set of irrefutable evidence is; despite the evidence many chose to make god in their own image, and choose to decide for themselve what is good and evil.

 

[jonfawkes]

Another set of irrefutable evidence is; despite the evidence many chose to make god in their own image, and choose to decide for themselve what is good and evil.

So Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Bahá’ís, Sikhs etc, are willfully denying God and are on par with the Satan who willfully rebelled from God? These are evil people in your opinion? They might as well be atheists or Satan worshipers ?- in your opinion

They are not people of faith who’s truth differs from yours but evil people willfully denying God. That’s what you are going with.

 

[davidv]

So Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Bahá’ís, Sikhs etc, are willfully denying God and are on par with the Satan who willfully rebelled from God? These are evil people in your opinion? They might as well be atheists or Satan worshipers ?- in your opinion

They are not people of faith who’s truth differs from yours but evil people willfully denying God. That’s what you are going with.

The Church teaches that all faiths contain some truth. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

Did I ever say any of these people are evil. Every human is made in the image and likeness of God. All have been wounded by original sin. Each is called to his true home in heaven. Each is judged by God, given the circumstances they found themselves in.

Your last statement (bolded) is very uncharitable. I respectful request an apology from you. It puts hateful words in my mouth that I did not say.

 

[jonfawkes]

The Church teaches that all faiths contain some truth. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

Did I ever say any of these people are evil. Every human is made in the image and likeness of God. All have been wounded by original sin. Each is called to his true home in heaven. Each is judged by God, given the circumstances they found themselves in.

Your last statement (bolded) is very uncharitable. I respectful request an apology from you. It puts hateful words in my mouth that I did not say.

You statement was

Another set of irrefutable evidence is; despite the evidence many chose to make god in their own image, and choose to decide for themselve what is good and evil.

By inference

Anyone that doesn’t heed the evidence are making God in their own image.

People who practice another religion aren’t heading the evidence.

People that make God in there own image are willfully rebelling from God.

People that rebel from God are evil.

People who practice another religion must be evil.

You need to either be more careful in what you say or come to grips that you are hateful.

 

[davidv]

You statement was

By inference

Anyone that doesn’t heed the evidence are making God in their own image.

People who practice another religion aren’t heading the evidence.

People that make God in there own image are willfully rebelling from God.

People that rebel from God are evil.

People who practice another religion must be evil.

You need to either be more careful in what you say or come to grips that you are hateful.

Your inferences are irrational and incorrect.

 

[jonfawkes]

Your inferences are irrational and incorrect.

David,

My only point is that people believe different things, it doesn’t make them bad people. I do think you know that, but I’m not sure you believe it.

Because we believe something does makes it a truth for us. For example, transubstantiation, Is a truth for Catholics, it isn’t a universal truth. For all other people it’s just bread and wine.

People having other believes doesn’t diminish your own.

I believe that moral absolutes are a Catholic truth, it is something to aspire to. No one can seem to pin point exactly what they are or how we can know them, and that’s OK because they are a matter of faith, just like transubstantiation.

Others can’t dictate your faith, it’s a free choice that you have made, you in turn can’t dictate another’s.

Matthew 7

Peace,

P.S. I am sorry if I offended you. Examining believes is touchy work.

 

[davidv]

David,

My only point is that people believe different things, it doesn’t make them bad people.

Where did I say it did. I said no such thing. You presumed something that is not true.

I do think you know that, but I’m not sure you believe it.

Presumption.

Because we believe something does makes it a truth for us.

No it does not. It makes it ones belief. Belief does not define truth.

For example, transubstantiation, Is a truth for Catholics, it isn’t a universal truth. For all other people it’s just bread and wine.

So you say. But your saying so doesn’t make it so.

People having other believes doesn’t diminish your own.

Where did I say or imply this. Is this more of you unfounded presumption?

I believe that moral absolutes are a Catholic truth, it is something to aspire to. No one can seem to pin point exactly what they are or how we can know them, and that’s OK because they are a matter of faith, just like transubstantiation.

Your belief means you agree that truth was present to you and you accepted it as true.

Others can’t dictate your faith, it’s a free choice that you have made, you in turn can’t dictate another’s.

Did I say or imply otherwise?

Matthew 7

Peace,

P.S. I am sorry if I offended you. Examining believes is touchy work.

Apology accepted.