Moral dilemma?

[alms]

Is it considered a sin to lie (knowingly, willfully, and would be grave under normal circumstances) in order to prevent a more grave sin that another person would commit based on the true information if told? For example: person A lies so that person B does not commit murder. By the way this was a situation in the TV show “24”. What is the Church’s position on this? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Della]

Outright lying is never encouraged by the Church, but we are not obligated to tell another all we know, not in order to deceive, but to keep something bad from happening.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

police use deception often to catch bad guys. It is a neccessary part of their job at times which I think may have been the case on your tv show. Undercover police work is what I have in mind.

 

[BioCatholic]

Daniel Marsh:

police use deception often to catch bad guys. It is a neccessary part of their job at times which I think may have been the case on your tv show. Undercover police work is what I have in mind.

not just in undercover police work. i can tell someone the sky is orange in order to get them to come out of their house to “see” it so i can arrest them without a warrant. normally, in order to go inside someones’ home to arrest them, you need a warrant. however, if they willingly come outside, they can be arrested, even if they do so under deception.

we can tell them that their buddy already ratted them out, in hopes they will give an admission of guilt. honestly, police can do some really dirty, underhanded, and slimy things legally.

but look at who they deal with too.

 

[masterjedi747]

alms:

For example: person A lies so that person B does not commit murder. By the way this was a situation in the TV show “24”.

Oh, I love that show. (Which example were you referring to specifically, by the way?)

But no, as much as I hate to say it, intentionally lying is always immoral. Under serious conditions, it might be understandable and more easily forgiveable (in some cases the person himself might not even be culpable for commiting the sin), but under no circumstances is it ever moral to lie. The morally valid options that you do have are either to remain completely silent, or else to use mental reservation (basically telling enough of the truth, but not all of it, for sufficient reason). Here’s a more detailed look at the terms and definitions:

2 Basic Definitions of Lying:

1. The expression by which we convey to another something contrary to what we think in order to deliberately deceive them.
2. The contradiction between our outward expression and our interior conviction.

3 Conditions for a lie to take place: (Need all 3)

1. Must be an expression by word or deed that communicates an idea to another.
2. It must convey to another something that we do not believe to be true.
3. Intending to deceive them. (Generally a bad thing.)

4 Exceptions to Lying:

1. Hyperbole: The use of exaggerated statements, which are easily understood as such.
2. Irony: Speech used to express humor, with the intended (and understood) implication of meaning the exact opposite of the literal sense of the words used.
3. Jokes: When the nature is obvious so that a reasonable person would recognize the jest.
4. Fiction: Something that is not true or real. (Presenting fiction as fiction is not sinful.)

Mental Reservation:

1. To tell the truth in such a way as to mislead someone and/or to be vague.

5 Conditions for Valid Mental Reservation:

1. The Intention is good.
2. Cannot be used with a person in rightful authority.
3. Cannot be done under oath.
4. Truth of the matter cannot be directly contradicted.
5. There is a sufficient reason for it.

 

[alms]

masterjedi747:

Oh, I love that show. (Which example were you referring to specifically, by the way?)

I forget now exactly what example. I do remember that it was one of the episodes in the second season of “24”. Incidentally, during the third season of “24” the same type of moral dilemma appeared in the form of killing. President Palmer was forced by a terrorist to make a decision to have one of his CTU agents (Agent Ryan) killed, unless the terrorist would release a weaponized virus and kill millions of Americans. To make a long story short, President Palmer ordered Jack Bauer to kill Agent Ryan and deliver the body to the terrorist in order to save millions. Needless to say, Jack Bauer delivered.

To get back on track of this original tread…

The Catechism defines a lie as “speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving” (2482). It goes on to say in paragraph 2483 “to lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error”.

Case 1: It appears that if you were not to tell the truth to A in order to keep A from committing murder then not telling the truth would not be a lie. It would not be a lie because by not telling the truth you keeping A from committing an error (i.e., murder). In this case if it still considered a lie (which is a sin) it appears to be a venial sin because of the lack of gravity.

Case 2: Also vice versa: if you were silent (an act) or you told the truth you would cause A to murder thus leading someone (A) into error. And, if in this case it is considered a lie (because you lead someone into error by telling the truth or your silence) it appears to be a mortal sin because of the gravity of the error.

It’s apparent that giving this situation Case 1 is the moral choice. Is there any way out of this situation without committing any sin?

 

[lukechap6]

The Catechism says christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/moral.html

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
• the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”[56]
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.”[57] Therefore “it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble.”[58]

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

I love this question. I asked a priest this once, and he put me off.

In The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom, she lies to protect the Jews she is hiding from the Nazis. Her sister refuses to lie, saying that God will honor her refusal to sin. Sure enough, the Nazis point to a servant (really a Jew in hiding) and ask the sister if she is a Jew. The sister says yes. They take the two Jews they are hiding, but both escape. In another situation, they are hiding two boys of conscription age in a hole under the kitchen table. When the Nazis ask where they are, the sister says," under the table." They laugh and leave.

It is a really great true book.