Moral Duty to Drug Addict

[LaughingBoy1503]

Wrong- If you are addicted, and you use again, you pick up right where you left off and go down from there. Once the using of drugs stops then what? You have a big gaping hole in your life where the drugs used to sit. THat’s when you need God, positive personal relationships, hobbies, etc to fill that hole in your life you were using drugs to fill. I think if it were as easy as take away the drugs and addiction stops…people wouldn’t relapse so often when they get out of jail, the hospital, treatment, etc. Taking away the drug allows you to start the healing process. Not the end but the beginning of the process. From what I have learned over the years anyway. THis is when that family support is so helpful…

Sorry, I dont buy into the “once a addict always a addict theory” Having a big gaping hole in your life where drugs use to sit, is not the same as having a disease or addiction. It is somthing you have to fill with somthing, I agree, but it is the consequences of your choices, not a mental problem compareable to schtizophrenia or a REAL mental problem.

 

[raaucoin]

1. Calling addiction a disease strips the person of the belief that they are personally and solely at fault for their addiction. I have heard people go as far as to say that they were drug addicts/alcoholics before they ever took a drink/drug People choose to take drugs. The problems associated with drug addiction go away simply by abstaining from drugs/alcohol. That is a behavior problem, not a disease. People choose to do drugs. Nobody chooses to get cancer or a mental problem. Though do enough drugs and you can end up with a mental problem. Then that is a disease, but not the drug use itself.
2. Obviously I avoided the worst outcome? Are you saying I am trying to hide somthing? I am kidding but sorry I do not know what you are implying. Care to be more specific? What about overdoses?
   From my experience what could others have done to help? Nothing. Pray for me. But it did help that friends made it known that they had faith that one day I can stop. I remember one friend telling me “If anybody can do it, you can.” I took that to heart.

So by your reasoning a person who has type II diabetes does not have a disease because she chose to consume foods that her insulin production couldn’t keep up with; and a person with lung cancer doesn’t have a disease if they got it by choosing to work in a high risk environment. And someone who contracts a venereal disease chose sexual activity so that isn’t a disease either.-- I am an alcoholic(recovering for 15yrs.now) my first consumption of alcohol was as a toddler given hot toddies for chronic congestion and lung ailments. My mother had no idea that I was becoming dependant on alcohol as a kid. At 12 yrs. old I served my self my first Jack and coke. I have an addiction and I was not responsible for it any more than the babies born addicted to alcohol and drugs. My brain, my body and my spirit suffered degeneration. It was when as a twenty something I learned that I had a disease that I learned there was a program of treatment for it. It was and is for my recovery that I am responsible- not the fact that I do have a disease.
Even the Alcoholics and addicts who didn’t have a problem until they chose to drink or use socially- I have never met one who said "Hum, I want to choose to destroy my life and the people around me who love and care for me."They chose to drink or to use a drug- not to loose everything.
There is evidence that those who become alcoholic are not able to process alcohol like others who drink with no problem. There is some evidence of genetic predisposition. And regardless of your opinion- addiction meets the definition of disease.

And until everyone who drinks takes the time out before a wedding, party, celebration or social gathering, or after dinner cocktail, to reflect on and weigh the potential for that first drink to lead to another, then another…saying addiction is a choice is ridiculous.- Addiction is a progressive disease.Some of us will go farther than others. For some the choice to quit drinking or using comes earlier than for others before damage is done beyond repair.And it is easier for some than others. If you didn’t have to sink as low as I did- consider yourself blessed.

 

[raaucoin]

Saying an addiction is a disease empowers people to take responsibility. It does not strip them of responsibility. It only puts into perspective what they are responsible for.

 

[rturner76]

Sorry, I dont buy into the “once a addict always a addict theory” Having a big gaping hole in your life where drugs use to sit, is not the same as having a disease or addiction. It is somthing you have to fill with somthing, I agree, but it is the consequences of your choices, not a mental problem compareable to schtizophrenia or a REAL mental problem.

You don’t have to buy in to it. Your insurance company does though fortunately for you and me. I have seen it proven myself literally at least 200 times on top of the research. So maybe it is not that way for you but that has no bearing on what the medical community already has proven. Do you “buy” into diabetes? Heart disease? These are also affected by your choices but you likely “buy” into them.

 

[Richard320]

Sorry, I dont but into the “once a addict always a addict theory” Having a big gaping hole in your life where drugs use to sit, is not the same as having a disease or addiction. It is somthing you have to fill with somthing, I agree, but it is the consequences of your choices, not a mental problem.

Sorry, but you’re wrong.

You may be able to drink with no problem, which makes it hard to understand. People who have never drank are more likely to accept it. It’s not a question of Will Power. You’d have as much success controlling diarrhea with will power when you have e coli.

Here’s a little example. If you take 30 random people off the street, lock them up, and inject them with heroin every day, you will have 30 heroin addicts at the end of the month. Now, you wean them off the heroin for the next 30 days, and turn them loose. The three that want more heroin have the disease.

I haven’t had alcohol in 23 years. My life is good. But I know from watching others how fast I will lose it all if I resume. It will be out of control again in no time. But, if a pill were developed that absolutely put a stop to the disease, I’d take it. Why? Because then I could go have some beer! Lots of it. Catch a good buzz. Doesn’t that sound irrational? Insane? You can’t blame it on alcohol; I’ve been sober a long, long time. Must be something else, then…like a disease.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

So by your reasoning a person who has type II diabetes does not have a disease because she chose to consume foods that her insulin production couldn’t keep up with; and a person with lung cancer doesn’t have a disease if they got it by choosing to work in a high risk environment. And someone who contracts a venereal disease chose sexual activity so that isn’t a disease either.-- I am an alcoholic(recovering for 15yrs.now) my first consumption of alcohol was as a toddler given hot toddies for chronic congestion and lung ailments. My mother had no idea that I was becoming dependant on alcohol as a kid. At 12 yrs. old I served my self my first Jack and coke. I have an addiction and I was not responsible for it any more than the babies born addicted to alcohol and drugs. My brain, my body and my spirit suffered degeneration. It was when as a twenty something I learned that I had a disease that I learned there was a program of treatment for it. It was and is for my recovery that I am responsible- not the fact that I do have a disease.
Even the Alcoholics and addicts who didn’t have a problem until they chose to drink or use socially- I have never met one who said "Hum, I want to choose to destroy my life and the people around me who love and care for me."They chose to drink or to use a drug- not to loose everything.
There is evidence that those who become alcoholic are not able to process alcohol like others who drink with no problem. There is some evidence of genetic predisposition. And regardless of your opinion- addiction meets the definition of disease.

And until everyone who drinks takes the time out before a wedding, party, celebration or social gathering, or after dinner cocktail, to reflect on and weigh the potential for that first drink to lead to another, then another…saying addiction is a choice is ridiculous.- Addiction is a progressive disease.Some of us will go farther than others. For some the choice to quit drinking or using comes earlier than for others before damage is done beyond repair.And it is easier for some than others. If you didn’t have to sink as low as I did- consider yourself blessed.

Nope. Dibetes is a disease, I know it is. You cannot compare it to drug addiction. Drug addiction simply goes away by abstaining from drugs. There is no cure for dibetes. Same with lung cancer.

Sorry, but I went through some lows myself but I dont use the excuse that “I have a disease” to make myself feel less at fault. I take full responsibility. YES addiction is a choice. I let myself become addicted to drugs by continuing to do them even when I saw problems from using. Not everyone wants to admit that though.

I have alcoholism in my family too. It made me predisposed to addiction, but it did not make me start my addiction. I did. Also I have relatives who never got into drugs at all despite us sharing similar genes. What about them?

By the way the ama which declared alcoholism a disease also said that tobacco was not addictive back in the 50s. So what they say is not infallible.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Sorry, but you’re wrong.

You may be able to drink with no problem, which makes it hard to understand. People who have never drank are more likely to accept it. It’s not a question of Will Power. You’d have as much success controlling diarrhea with will power when you have e coli.

Here’s a little example. If you take 30 random people off the street, lock them up, and inject them with heroin every day, you will have 30 heroin addicts at the end of the month. Now, you wean them off the heroin for the next 30 days, and turn them loose. The three that want more heroin have the disease.

I haven’t had alcohol in 23 years. My life is good. But I know from watching others how fast I will lose it all if I resume. It will be out of control again in no time. But, if a pill were developed that absolutely put a stop to the disease, I’d take it. Why? Because then I could go have some beer! Lots of it. Catch a good buzz. Doesn’t that sound irrational? Insane? You can’t blame it on alcohol; I’ve been sober a long, long time. Must be something else, then…like a disease.

WRONG. I had a drinking problem too. I now learned to drink moderatly.
That heroin story is stating opinion as fact.
It is a matter of will power. If I drink, unless sombody had a gun to my head, I did it because I want to, not a disease. The fact that you occasionally still desire to drink after 23 years I cannot understant I will admit. I did drugs for 5 years and I never had the desire to use again after I stopped.

 

[Rainaldo]

Addiction no matter how you feel about it, is a disease. Science has proven it is more than just a character defect. While someone is active in their addiction, they are not the person you love. Their body has been taken their by their disease. They must seek help and there is no person that can help them unless they want the help. Having an intervention may alert someone to the fact they have a problem but they must want to fix it in order for the “treatment” to work.

Labeling addition as a disease is a ploy to shift the blame off the addict for his own behavior and involves contradictions.

If addiction is a disease, then anything bad the diseased person does is the fault of the disease, not the diseased person. If someone is not the person you love while he is active in his addiction, then he is not responsible for anything he did while addicted when he is no longer active in his addiction. You can’t hold one person responsible for something another person does. Consequently, if I want to commit a crime and get away with it, all I have to do is get addicted, commit it, then come back from addiction.

If so, then it is a contradiction to say that someone’s body has been taken by the disease, because if his body has been taken, his mind has not been taken, and therefore he is responsible. Furthermore, if the addict must seek help, and if there is no person that can help him unless he wants help, and if he must want to fix it in order for the “treatment” to work, then this is the addict’s responsibility too. So this is also a contradiction.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Just want to add I have very strong opinions about addiction obviously. There is somthing about ther disease theory of addiction that I just despise and think is wrong. Regardless, I give credit to whoever did stop regardless if they believe they have a disease or not. God bless and strenghten all those struggling with addiction.

 

[rturner76]

Just want to add I have very strong opinions about addiction obviously. There is somthing about ther disease theory of addiction that I just despise and think is wrong. Regardless, I give credit to whoever did stop regardless if they believe they have a disease or not. God bless and strenghten all those struggling with addiction.

It is good to see that you seem to understand that this is if nothing else, a very complex issue and people who struggle with this no matter what your opinion of the disease concept need our prayer. I think that is more to the point of the OP any way. What can we do for these people? Telling them it’s not their fault and they bear no responsibility for their actions will not work for obvious reasons and neither will shaming someone, telling them they are stupid or deffective because they don’t “get it” doesn’t work either.

So back to the OP question…what do we do?..

I say we support the good choices and don’t support the bad ones. Go with them to the bowling alley but not if they are drinking there etc. Let them know by action that you got me whenever you need when you are making good choices can help with the lonliness and isolation that addicts put themselves through

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So back to the OP question…what do we do?..

I say we support the good choices and don’t support the bad ones. Go with them to the bowling alley but not if they are drinking there etc. Let them know by action that you got me whenever you need when you are making good choices can help with the lonliness and isolation that addicts put themselves through

So does anyone want to disagree with this:

1. Live an exemplary Christian life.
2. Love the sinner (this needs further clarification).
3. Help when perceived need and offered help coincides (i.e. don’t support an addict’s habit but help him into rehab if he asks).
4. Give moral instruction and advice when it comes up naturally, as for example when you are asked why you make the choices that you do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Moral duty to people who make bad choices? I dont know. Everybody makes bad choices somtimes dont they? Only for diffrent things. It depends on what kind. Bad diet choices, relationship choices, career choices, moral choices ect. I have my opinion about Drug addiction because I went through it, other than that, I dont know about a moral duty to people who make bad choices in general. That is kind of broad. For me personally I just try to remember not to cast stones because I use to be pretty bad.

Well, precisely.

In fact we could generalize even further: what is our moral duty to others when we disagree with their choices?

It seems that everyone here is tending toward a libertarianish view, not that people have a right to do stupid things but that we are limited in our ability to help others who are making bad choices or simply choices we disagree with.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

So does anyone want to disagree with this:

1. Live an exemplary Christian life.
2. Love the sinner (this needs further clarification).
3. Help when perceived need and offered help coincides (i.e. don’t support an addict’s habit but help him into rehab if he asks).
4. Give moral instruction and advice when it comes up naturally, as for example when you are asked why you make the choices that you do.

No I agree that is a good layout.

WIth regards to #3. The only thing I would add is this. Do not use a 12 step facility. I have read studies that show that a person is more likely to stop on their own than if they go to a 12step rehab.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Well, precisely.

In fact we could generalize even further: what is our moral duty to others when we disagree with their choices?

It seems that everyone here is tending toward a libertarianish view, not that people have a right to do stupid things but that we are limited in our ability to help others who are making bad choices or simply choices we disagree with.

I think we are limited in our ability to help others who are making bad choices regarding drugs or alcohol. I think that is realilistic.

When it comes to disagreeing with a friends moral choices, I have to remind myself all the time that not all my friends are Catholic/Christian. All I can really do is be a honest person and not be a hypocrit by saying I believe one thing, but doing another. If they ask my opinion, I will tell them. Other than that I mind my own business.

When It comes to a parent/child relationship it is diffrent. But I do not have any children so I I cant speak with confidence on what I would do in that situation.

 

[rturner76]

No I agree that is a good layout.

WIth regards to #3. The only thing I would add is this. Do not use a 12 step facility. I have read studies that show that a person is more likely to stop on their own than if they go to a 12step rehab.

I would question who did those studies. Were they peer reviewed medical journal studies? 12 is not fr everyone but that does not mean it’s not for anyone. Millions have gotten clean and sober through the 12 step model. Like they say in the program

It works if you work it.

It’s worth investigating like any other model. What is for sure true is that it;s not the only way like a lot of treatment centers will tell you. That’s for sure. As long as you got God in your program, it has a chance.

 

[RyanBlack]

WRONG. I had a drinking problem too. I now learned to drink moderatly.
That heroin story is stating opinion as fact.
It is a matter of will power. If I drink, unless sombody had a gun to my head, I did it because I want to, not a disease. The fact that you occasionally still desire to drink after 23 years I cannot understant I will admit. I did drugs for 5 years and I never had the desire to use again after I stopped.

You make the mistake of extrapolating your own experiences to the entire population.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think we are limited in our ability to help others who are making bad choices regarding drugs or alcohol. I think that is realilistic.

When it comes to disagreeing with a friends moral choices, I have to remind myself all the time that not all my friends are Catholic/Christian. All I can really do is be a honest person and not be a hypocrit by saying I believe one thing, but doing another. If they ask my opinion, I will tell them. Other than that I mind my own business.

I purposely broadened the issue beyond addiction (I hadn’t expected it would be such a focus).

Let us suppose, for example, that your (non-Catholic) friend is having affairs, geting serially divorced and remaried, etc. His children are pretty messed up by this, not to mention his wives.

What do you do?

When It comes to a parent/child relationship it is diffrent. But I do not have any children so I I cant speak with confidence on what I would do in that situation.

If you plan to have children it’s worth thinking about. I do so this is very much on my mind.

There is a great deal of controversy over how much influence parents have on their children. Some studies suggest virtually none, others much, but certainly there are limits, especially as they get older. (I sure hope my parents don’t burn in hell for my bad choices.)

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I would question who did those studies. Were they peer reviewed medical journal studies? 12 is not fr everyone but that does not mean it’s not for anyone. Millions have gotten clean and sober through the 12 step model. Like they say in the program

It works if you work it.

It’s worth investigating like any other model. What is for sure true is that it;s not the only way like a lot of treatment centers will tell you. That’s for sure. As long as you got God in your program, it has a chance.

It cannot be proven that the 12 steps have helped millions of people. I take it from acouple of the slogans you have said that you are “a friend of bill and bob” if you know what I mean? If you really want to get into this and want me to show you why the 12 steps are not what they seem lets start another thread. Leave me a message or I will leave you a message when it gets started. I have tons of data and evidence to support my view. Pro a.a./12steppers have no evidence or studies that show a.a. or the 12 steps have more than a 5% success rate. Which is the spontaneous remission rate of alcoholics every year. Which shows that the people who stop drinking with a.a./the twelve steps are most likely the people who would have stopped on their own anyway. Prove me wrong though. Embarassingly though I dont know how to post links, I have never had to or wanted to before I will learn though.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I purposely broadened the issue beyond addiction (I hadn’t expected it would be such a focus).

Let us suppose, for example, that your (non-Catholic) friend is having affairs, geting serially divorced and remaried, etc. His children are pretty messed up by this, not to mention his wives.

What do you do?

If you plan to have children it’s worth thinking about. I do so this is very much on my mind.

There is a great deal of controversy over how much influence parents have on their children. Some studies suggest virtually none, others much, but certainly there are limits, especially as they get older. (I sure hope my parents don’t burn in hell for my bad choices.)

What do I personally do? Nothing. I have never been married and know nothing about marriage or my actions affecting my children (I dont have any). That is for sombody else to comment on. I would just pray for them and live my life right. So that way if they do ask my opinion, they cannot say that I do not practice what I preach. That way i do not make Catholics/Christians look bad by being a hypocrite.

 

[yogicat]

This is a “tough love” forumla that gives a great deal of lattitude to the person in trouble.

Obviously we wouldn’t give them “all” our money. But let us suppose this person has trouble eating and paying the rent. Given cash he might spend it on drugs or whatever. Not giving any support leads to other outcomes.

If our idea of help is one thing and their idea of help is another thing how do we decide how to help?

You have to take that into consideration. I don’t give homeless people money, but I won’t hesitate to buy them food directly. Gift cards work too, but there is the chance they could trade them for cash. If they’re idea of help is enough cash to get blowed, then no, we cant’ help. That isn’t helping. At the most, we can help when they are ready to help themselves.