Moral Relativism

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It is still a subjective statement from a human about humans. It doesn’t address when humans persons come into conflict - who life is deserving of more respect? It sounds nice but ambiguous when the rubber hits the pavement.
Before I address a previous post…

We used to say when the rubber hits the road. 😃
.Let’s deal with that concept.

I will submit that “the human person is worthy of profound respect” is a subjective statement from a human about humans. Glad you used the plural form of human. Now, would you provide me with all the reasons that statement sounds nice.
Can we set aside where it becomes ambiguous for a bit? I always like to start with the positive and then address conflicts.

Blessings,
granny

“There is more than one way to skin a cat.” from my Irish Mother.
 
So presumably civil union between homosexuals is to be welcomed as it accords them equal dignity to heteros.
What I actually wrote was *“The preservation of one’s personal dignity is something which can be applied to anyone, of any shape, size, colour, sexual persuasion, gender, ability, or whatever.” *In light of what I actually wrote and not what you thought I wrote, how is it that you presume your conclusion? In previous posts I kept mentioning the use of ‘Reason’. Wouldn’t it be best to reason one’s way to a conclusion rather than to presume?

I purposefully did not define the notion of ‘dignity’. Don’t you think we would arrive at a just conclusion if we somehow defined what constitutes human dignity and then decide whether or not sanctioned homosexuality fits the definition? Your statement pertains to human behaviour. Is all human behaviour dignified? Is dignity the only measure of the rightness or wrongness of human behaviour?
 
Let me start with your last question.

What do you think is meant by God ‘being so into the inherent worth of the individual’? What do you think constitutes the ‘inherent worth of the individual’? How about if we start with the concept of ‘Dignity’. Are you able to accept the notion that all people should be afforded the opportunity to lead a dignified life? The preservation of one’s personal dignity is something which can be applied to anyone, of any shape, size, colour, sexual persuasion, gender, ability, or whatever. I’m sure you have come across many philosophers, politicians, churchmen, even Popes, who have spoken, or written on the notion of human dignity. Dignity can be hard to define, but just about all of us know what dignity represents and we can recognise the lack of it when we see it. You agree? So maybe we will just let the concept of God being ‘so into the inherent worth of the individual’ rest there for the moment.

You then ask “why is individual interpretation so threatening”? I have to ask you, “individual interpretation of what” and “threatening in what sense”? Without waiting for an explicit answer from you (none of us will live that long!) I will say that there are some things in this world that are not open to interpretation. They are facts, independent of any particular mind and discernable through reason whenever any individual cares to exercise it. If it can be said that individual interpretation is “threatening”, maybe it is because there are a good many people who do not exercise their reasoning powers and so distort, even deny, the existence of things which cannot be denied. Some people even do it deliberately and perhaps threaten the good commonsense of others.

I will now move onto your explanation of gravity as a “law”, even though you are attempting to show that it is not properly understood. You said “these work for large bodies but fail at the quantum level”. By “these” I take it ou mean the various theories regarding gravity? Is that correct? No matter. The theories which attempt to describe and define it might fail, but the existence of gravity does not, does it john? Now, harking back to my previous paragraph, we now have one thing which cannot be denied, no matter how anyone attempts to play at semantics. True john?

You have seen this coming for a while and you know that I know that you knew this was coming. True? That is why you have performed all sorts of intellectual acrobatics to avoid answering my questions directly and you do the same to others.

Basically, your insistence that there is nothing objective in the world is indefensible. If it were the case, all of science would be false and a good many scientists would have your guts for garters. If there were no objective laws governing the universe, the internal combustion engine would not work and the tyres on your car would fail to take you around a corner. Even making that hypothetical metal cooking pot of yours must be done according to a set of objective principles, or else there would be no cooking pot. And as for that fire under it, well, nuff said…Even your pedantic arguments over poor granny’s chair can not deny the existence of that chair, regardless of its shape, size, or anything else.

I’m actually wondering if you aren’t a dissembler. :confused:
Your god seems more like sorcerer’s apprentice than sorcerer. Chasing after his creation gone wrong, hoping to tamp it down. He seems foolish to us head hunters.
We are of the world, we belong here.

Again you are confused - you are seeing subjective interpretation as imperial fact.

Each culture has their version of a pot, or a sword with different manufacturing processes. e.x. Katana vs Broadsword. They both are made of metal, but made using different processes.

Different companies make different tires. The objective fact just sits there, it’s what we do with the facts that is subjective.

We can observe and interact with gravity we can’t say we know how ultimately it works. We can observe human interaction with each other and the world. We can’t say we know ultimately what the “proper” interactions are. We gain knowledge, our perspective changes. The object fact is there are humans and we interact. How those interactions play out and we see them are subjective and relative.

You like to project. We can see it is just illusion. Go have your god chase some other brooms.
 
Before I address a previous post…

We used to say when the rubber hits the road. 😃
.Let’s deal with that concept.

I will submit that “the human person is worthy of profound respect” is a subjective statement from a human about humans. Glad you used the plural form of human. Now, would you provide me with all the reasons that statement sounds nice.
Can we set aside where it becomes ambiguous for a bit? I always like to start with the positive and then address conflicts.

Blessings,
granny

“There is more than one way to skin a cat.” from my Irish Mother.
It sounds nice in the way “be kind” sounds nice.
 
It sounds nice in the way “be kind” sounds nice.
Sounding nice to oneself is a good example of subjective reasoning. Recalling personal kindness is another good example.

What about these reasons? I know from past experiences that when people are kind to me, I feel very good. I have observed that kindness is a good tool in getting someone to do a favor for me. When a person is respected, it helps one’s self esteem which in turn makes her or him more productive in society.

Would these statements fit in with being subjective?

My apology, but I am flying out the door.

Blessings,
granny
 
Your god seems more like sorcerer’s apprentice than sorcerer. Chasing after his creation gone wrong, hoping to tamp it down. He seems foolish to us head hunters.
We are of the world, we belong here.
And yet you are blind to the world you live in and blind to the realities which govern this world.
Again you are confused - you are seeing subjective interpretation as imperial fact.
And you are excusing poor use of reason and projecting the resultant fallacies onto others. That is why you can’t answer the questions I pose.
Each culture has their version of a pot, or a sword with different manufacturing processes. e.x. Katana vs Broadsword. They both are made of metal, but made using different processes.
And did you not know that the different processes are basically the same? Metal has to be heated and treated according to the nature of the metal used and according to the ‘hardness’ of the desired end product… The heating and treating are only different by degrees. Next thing you’ll be telling me that horse shoe making is not a part of metallurgy. Your lack of reasoning blinds you to the underlying principles.
Different companies make different tires. The objective fact just sits there, it’s what we do with the facts that is subjective.
Different tyres on cars all are subject to the same objective forces and counterforces, which is why they keep cars on roads. Are you not able to see the underlying principles? They are taught in junior school john.
We can observe and interact with gravity we can’t say we know how ultimately it works.
It doesn’t matter whether or not we understand it john. We know it exists as an objective fact. Even the uneducated know gravity is an objective fact in the world, though he understands nothing of quantum or string theories.
We can observe human interaction with each other and the world. We can’t say we know ultimately what the “proper” interactions are. We gain knowledge, our perspective changes. The object fact is there are humans and we interact. How those interactions play out and we see them are subjective and relative.
Don’t you think that there are certain identifiable characteristics of humans that are universal? That are common across cultural boundaries? Certain characteristics which are readily and objectively identifiable as being part of what we call “human nature”? Gee, I hope you answer yes, or else along with the scientists the psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists and anthropologists will want your guts for garters!! We indeed do gain knowledge. All the time. However, that doesn’t mean what we are gaining knowledge about is substantially different. No matter how we might understand gravity, it will still be gravity and keep our feet planted on terra firma. Same goes with human nature.
You like to project. We can see it is just illusion. Go have your god chase some other brooms.
It is actually the subjectivist who projects. He projects all his uncertainties onto others, if not onto the whole world. That’s because his metaphorical ‘rumbling tummy’ is his reference point. Pretty sad, eh?!
 
jonfawkes

*Let me ask you a question - if your god is so into the inherent worth of the individual, why is individual interpretation so threatening? *

What does inherent worth have to do with individual interpretation? You logic is cat (fuzzy) logic.

Individual interpretation is at the root of disunity among all Protestant sects. Martin Luther advanced the cause of individual interpretation by breaking with the Church. Ever since every new Protestant denomination has been built by Protestants breaking off from each other because they were so into their own private interpretation.

Both Jesus and Paul pleaded for unity among the true believers. How do you get unity when people like you are pleading for everyone to go off in a hundred directions with their own “individual interpretation”?
 
And yet you are blind to the world you live in and blind to the realities which govern this world.

And you are excusing poor use of reason and projecting the resultant fallacies onto others. That is why you can’t answer the questions I pose.

And did you not know that the different processes are basically the same? Metal has to be heated and treated according to the nature of the metal used and according to the ‘hardness’ of the desired end product… The heating and treating are only different by degrees. Next thing you’ll be telling me that horse shoe making is not a part of metallurgy. Your lack of reasoning blinds you to the underlying principles.

Different tyres on cars all are subject to the same objective forces and counterforces, which is why they keep cars on roads. Are you not able to see the underlying principles? They are taught in junior school john.

It doesn’t matter whether or not we understand it john. We know it exists as an objective fact. Even the uneducated know gravity is an objective fact in the world, though he understands nothing of quantum or string theories.

Don’t you think that there are certain identifiable characteristics of humans that are universal? That are common across cultural boundaries? Certain characteristics which are readily and objectively identifiable as being part of what we call “human nature”? Gee, I hope you answer yes, or else along with the scientists the psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists and anthropologists will want your guts for garters!! We indeed do gain knowledge. All the time. However, that doesn’t mean what we are gaining knowledge about is substantially different. No matter how we might understand gravity, it will still be gravity and keep our feet planted on terra firma. Same goes with human nature.

It is actually the subjectivist who projects. He projects all his uncertainties onto others, if not onto the whole world. That’s because his metaphorical ‘rumbling tummy’ is his reference point. Pretty sad, eh?!
I think instead of mounting your head I will use it for a change dish, it will finally be filled with something.

We do not deny the world, we are of the world. We don’t tell the world how it works, it tells us.

Tires work with friction, each tire works differently based on design. Friction doesn’t change, how it’s utilized does.

It does matter that you think you understand how morality works , you keep projecting. Try that with gravity, the result is the same, you fall on yer arse.

I’m going to go eat 😃
 
What I actually wrote was *“The preservation of one’s personal dignity is something which can be applied to anyone, of any shape, size, colour, sexual persuasion, gender, ability, or whatever.” *In light of what I actually wrote and not what you thought I wrote, how is it that you presume your conclusion?
You wrote "The preservation of one’s personal dignity is something which can be applied to anyone, of any … sexual persuasion …”.

From there, there’s no good reason to apply different standards of dignity to gays, irrespective of how dignity is defined. (They too contribute to society and pay their dues, they harm no one’s dignity by wanting the very same dignity - the word gay stands for no more and no less than Good As You.)

From there, I agree, that sounds very reasonable.
 
Both Jesus and Paul pleaded for unity among the true believers. How do you get unity when people like you are pleading for everyone to go off in a hundred directions with their own “individual interpretation”?
So they don’t value the individual, they value group think. 🤷
 
Both Jesus and Paul pleaded for unity among the true believers. How do you get unity when people like you are pleading for everyone to go off in a hundred directions with their own “individual interpretation”?
You live and let live, work out any differences, let the past be the past and move on. Or at least that may have a better chance of working than laying down the law and expecting meek acquiescence in denial of their personal conscience.

Don’t know much about CatholicsForChoice but possibly along those lines. 🙂
 
jonfawkes

So they don’t value the individual, they value group think.

Yes, Jesus and Paul did. You disagree?

CHRIST AND PAUL CALL FOR UNITY:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21
“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

“I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one Faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all” Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:2-6).

It is excess of pride and lack of humility that makes men go against Christ under the phony guise of “personal conscience.”
 
inocente

Catholic for Choice, which you recommend, are for killing the unborn. They go against the the Church, the Bishops, and the entire history of the Church’s view on killing the unborn. Do you suppose Christ was for killing the unborn?

Are you for killing the unborn?

The smoke of Satan has entered the Church in more ways than one.
 
YAWN - c’mon - who says what is right and what is wrong?
LOL! Yeah, strategy 2 is rather boring. Why not stop using it?

Your question is ambiguous. You were responding to an argument which invoked the meaning of ‘moral’ (and therefore of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’), and as I said, all competent language users know the meanings of these terms. You seem to be asking a different (irrelevant) question though, unwittingly(?) changing the subject.
 
Are you for killing the unborn?
No, just pointing out that a good place to start on your form of unity would be in-house before going after Protestants, especially Protestants who see freedom of conscience as essential to real unity.
 
inocente

*No, just pointing out that a good place to start on your form of unity would be in-house before going after Protestants, especially Protestants who see freedom of conscience as essential to real unity. *

I’m not at all surprised that you are all for tearing Christianity to shreds on the phony excuse of “freedom of conscience.” 😃

No doubt Satan used the same excuse when he bolted from Heaven.

As for going after “in-house” rebel Catholics, see post # 1208.
 
LOL! Yeah, strategy 2 is rather boring. Why not stop using it?

Your question is ambiguous. You were responding to an argument which invoked the meaning of ‘moral’ (and therefore of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’), and as I said, all competent language users know the meanings of these terms. You seem to be asking a different (irrelevant) question though, unwittingly(?) changing the subject.
So morality is what is right or wrong and we can know what is right or wrong by morality?
:rotfl:

C’mon - who decides what is “right” and what is “wrong”? It’s a pretty simple question.
 
Yet another demonstration of inocente’s stubbornly embraced confusion…
This statement
Originally Posted by inocente forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
No, it [relativism] says person A cannot dictate to person B, common morality comes by agreement not by tyranny.
[quoted as another demonstration, post 1212]
accurately describes basic moral relativism.

If one checks out Utilitarianism or modern Humanism, one finds the concept that “common morality” does come by agreement and not by tyranny. Agreement is based on the concept that person A cannot dictate to person B. What happens, in my observation, is that person A and person B agree to a common consensus of morality which is then based on the personal goals of both person A and person B.

Blessings,
granny
 
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