Moral Relativism

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I imagine this has been done to death on this sub-forum, but bear with me for a few.

I (a physics PhD candidate) have been debating with another graduate student (also in physics) about the nature/origin or morality. I, being Catholic, adhere to Absolutism while my classmate adheres to Relativism.

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure for moral arguments we require a higher level for morality (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!” His response was,
Nope, wrong. Any consistent system of morals and ethics starts from certain premises that tell you why it is wrong, e.g., to kill innocent people, and why it is good to perform some given action. And those premises are sometimes grounded in assumptions about the physical world. If those premises are grounded in scientifically fallacious assumptions about the physical world, then we can dispute that moral belief system by disputing those fallacious beliefs about the physical world. For example:
A Muslim might believe that it’s moral to stone adulterous women to death because the Koran says so, and because they believe that the Koran is the message of Allah, and that Allah really exists. But if we dispute that Allah exists, then we can dispute this moral precept (that it’s moral to stone adulterous women) in Islam.
He gave two more examples, but they had the same form as above. It seems to me, at first, that he’s agreeing with me (that a higher level needs to be there to have an argument) but is disagreeing with the semantics. Then it seems that he doesn’t understand the difference between a principle and a situation (as Kreeft uses the terms) as all three of his examples start with situations and have no principles.

So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
 
I imagine this has been done to death on this sub-forum, but bear with me for a few.

I (a physics PhD candidate) have been debating with another graduate student (also in physics) about the nature/origin or morality. I, being Catholic, adhere to Absolutism while my classmate adheres to Relativism.

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure for moral arguments we require a higher level for morality (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!” His response was,

He gave two more examples, but they had the same form as above. It seems to me, at first, that he’s agreeing with me (that a higher level needs to be there to have an argument) but is disagreeing with the semantics. Then it seems that he doesn’t understand the difference between a principle and a situation (as Kreeft uses the terms) as all three of his examples start with situations and have no principles.

So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
Welcome to CAF, jdwood:

It would appear that you have been zapped by a strawman, of sorts.
Nope, wrong. Any consistent system of morals and ethics starts from certain premises that tell you why it is wrong, e.g., to kill innocent people, and why it is good to perform some given action. And those premises are sometimes grounded in assumptions about the physical world. If those premises are grounded in scientifically fallacious assumptions about the physical world, then we can dispute that moral belief system by disputing those fallacious beliefs about the physical world. For example:
A Muslim might believe that it’s moral to stone adulterous women to death because the Koran says so, and because they believe that the Koran is the message of Allah, and that Allah really exists. But if we dispute that Allah exists, then we can dispute this moral precept (that it’s moral to stone adulterous women) in Islam.
If the above quote is accurate, he has led the argument off his goal. On the one hand, he says, that the premises grounding morality are from “assumptions about the physical world.” Then, he ignores the physical world altogether and suggests that by getting rid of Allah, we can “dispute [such] moral precepts.” In this sense, what has eliminating Allah got to do with the physical world?

Morality is the transcendental relation of a human act to a norm of goodness and evil, based upon man’s entire nature. By transcendental relation I mean one that is inherent in the act itself. To stone an adulterous woman to death violates this precept. The norm of goodness and evil, to be sure, is not the child of positivism. Otherwise, it could change from place to place, or time to time, as it has in this case. While the act of adultery is one which is immoral, the consequence of death by stoning is beyond fitting.

By stoning this woman, the men and women responsible have commited an act that is against the nature of man considered in its entirety.

God bless,
jd
 
A simple analogy that refutes relativism:
let’s you are wearing a blue shirt, and I come up to you and try to convince you that it’s green. We cannot both be right.
 
He gave two more examples, but they had the same form as above. It seems to me, at first, that he’s agreeing with me (that a higher level needs to be there to have an argument) but is disagreeing with the semantics. Then it seems that he doesn’t understand the difference between a principle and a situation (as Kreeft uses the terms) as all three of his examples start with situations and have no principles.

So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
We experience morality within our person. Now, that experience either tells us something about reality outside ourselves, or it does not. If it does not, then the two phrases: “murder is worse than forgiveness” and “ice cream is better than cold pizza” have equivocal “truth” as it were.

This is because, if our experiences in the moral realm do not correspond to some transcendent aspect of reality, then they do not correspond to anything outside the self at all, except brute matter and physicality. Hence, your love of ice cream and the color green and even forgiveness and empathy are all the same sort of thing - personal preferences. One can still “describe” the experiences going on (I see green and enjoy its color), but one can never cross over that barrier into a truly “ought” statement, meaning “it is truly better to love your spouse than cheat on them.”

Again, all value becomes relative to the individual, who is his or her own arbiter of moral truth. In such a system, Hitler is no more right in what he says than Jesus, or, for the matter of argument’s sake, your opponent is no more right than you, in any of his value statements. Interestingly, in such a system, an atheist cannot give a consistent reason as to why another should not believe in God, since “should” and “oughts” fall outside the realm of objective, common truths about reality.
 
I imagine this has been done to death on this sub-forum, but bear with me for a few.
Sure, but a fresh perspective can’t hurt! But I’m not clear on what your argument is supposed to be…:

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure (?) for moral arguments we require a higher level [of justification?] for morality [than for mere preferences?] (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!” His response was…
So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
I don’t see what his ‘logic’ is even supposed to be. Want to invite him on the forum to explain it?
 
I imagine this has been done to death on this sub-forum, but bear with me for a few.

I (a physics PhD candidate) have been debating with another graduate student (also in physics) about the nature/origin or morality. I, being Catholic, adhere to Absolutism while my classmate adheres to Relativism.

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure for moral arguments we require a higher level for morality (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!”
I’m not sure I see what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that, without God, moral values are just personal preferences of human beings, such as we might prefer one color over another? I suppose in a certain sense that really is all they are—though of course we usually care a great deal more about moral issues than color issues. Do you have some kind of argument showing that they must be something more than personal preferences?
His response was,
I don’t see how his response addresses your concerns about color preferences. On the other hand, I think he does have a point about disputing factual assumptions. If God doesn’t exist, then it naturally follows that Biblical morality doesn’t have a divine origin. So, a Christian had better be able to show that God exists if he wants people to take Biblical morality seriously. I’m just not sure if that addresses anything you have to say.
He gave two more examples, but they had the same form as above. It seems to me, at first, that he’s agreeing with me (that a higher level needs to be there to have an argument) but is disagreeing with the semantics. Then it seems that he doesn’t understand the difference between a principle and a situation (as Kreeft uses the terms) as all three of his examples start with situations and have no principles.
So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
I’d have to hear more about your case, first, sorry.
 
I imagine this has been done to death on this sub-forum, but bear with me for a few.

I (a physics PhD candidate) have been debating with another graduate student (also in physics) about the nature/origin or morality. I, being Catholic, adhere to Absolutism while my classmate adheres to Relativism.

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure for moral arguments we require a higher level for morality (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!” His response was,

He gave two more examples, but they had the same form as above. It seems to me, at first, that he’s agreeing with me (that a higher level needs to be there to have an argument) but is disagreeing with the semantics. Then it seems that he doesn’t understand the difference between a principle and a situation (as Kreeft uses the terms) as all three of his examples start with situations and have no principles.

So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
A moral system is basically an application or acceptance of the objective truth that the human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
Sure, but a fresh perspective can’t hurt! But I’m not clear on what your argument is supposed to be…:

As a proof for absolutism, I stated (using Kreeft’s Refuation… as a guide) that because we have a structure (?) for moral arguments we require a higher level [of justification?] for morality [than for mere preferences?] (that is, we require an absolute morality) because otherwise we’d be saying “Blue is a better color than green!” when we say, “Abortion is bad!” His response was…

I don’t see what his ‘logic’ is even supposed to be. Want to invite him on the forum to explain it?
Kreeft’s argument is more or less the following:

Look also at how we structure moral arguments: first, we make an appeal to a universal moral principle (“Don’t kill innocent people”), then we introduce a factual situation to show how the principle applies (“babies are innocent people”), to finally get a situational moral conclusion (“therefore, don’t kill babies”). The situation can be particular, but the principle must be universal so that it can apply to all parties and objective so that you can’t change the rules in the middle of the game.
So by the fact that we have a structure for moral arguments shows that we have a need for a universal, objective, unchanging principle. Without that principle, we can have no moral argument whatsoever. Thus either moral absolutism is true or moral arguments are impossible; since the latter is clearly not impossible then the former ought to be true

His logic in his response is that moral arguments begin with why something is bad, and the why is “grounded in the assumptions about the physical world”–as JDaniel points out, this is essentially positivism.
 
I’m not sure I see what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that, without God, moral values are just personal preferences of human beings, such as we might prefer one color over another? I suppose in a certain sense that really is all they are—though of course we usually care a great deal more about moral issues than color issues. Do you have some kind of argument showing that they must be something more than personal preferences?
More or less correct, without God morals are personal preferences and no one is morally wrong. Thus, to a Moral Relativist, Hitler was just as correct as Jesus. See Post #8 for a why morality must be more than personal preferences.
I don’t see how his response addresses your concerns about color preferences. On the other hand, I think he does have a point about disputing factual assumptions. If God doesn’t exist, then it naturally follows that Biblical morality doesn’t have a divine origin. So, a Christian had better be able to show that God exists if he wants people to take Biblical morality seriously. I’m just not sure if that addresses anything you have to say.
I agree that his response does nothing to show that morals are just personal preferences. I could also turn the coin on the other side and state that an atheist must show that God doesn’t exist if he wants moral relativism to be taken seriously.
 
@JDaniel, The Exodux, and JackVk: thanks for your help, I’ll be sure to work these into my argument.
 
So by the fact that we have a structure for moral arguments shows that we have a need for a universal, objective, unchanging principle. Without that principle, we can have no moral argument whatsoever.
This seems to me incredible. On the contrary, all we need is agreement on a principle in order to construct a persuasive argument. The source of that principle can be anything—including, for instance, personal preference. Consider:

(1) We shouldn’t eat fattening foods.
(2) Summer sausage is a fattening food.
(3) Therefore, we shouldn’t eat summer sausage.

Depending on the audience, this argument might play fairly persuasively at Christmas parties, but that doesn’t mean (1) is some kind of transcendent principle of the universe.

Also, please note that we can construct arguments without even simple agreement; only they are unlikely to be persuasive.
 
The “why” something is bad is an interpretation not a principle.

In a very broad sense, it not necessary to have some truth or principle apply to all parties. What is necessary is that the basic objective truth exists without all parties affirming it. The objective truth which is the source for a morality system existed before you and I were born and will continue to exist after our anatomy decomposes.

A morality system should be evaluated as to whether it is in accord with the basic objective truth or not in accord with it.

Morality is a human convention regardless if one is a theist or not. This convention is
based on the human objective truth that the human person is worthy of profound respect. Thus, a theist sees the human person as worthy of profound respect because God created human nature as spirit/matter and He calls us to share in His divine life. A non-theist sees the human person as worthy of profound respect because she or he is the pinnacle of creation.

A moral system is basically an application or acceptance of the objective truth that the human person is worthy of profound respect
 
A non-theist sees the human person as worthy of profound respect because she or he is the pinnacle of creation.
I haven’t found this to be case - more an attitude of we are an equal part of the world rather than the pinnacle. I found non-theist morality based on the idea of social harmony a la Kant’s categorical imperative.

Can you cite a reference?
 
All morality is based on the value of existence, not only of human beings but of living organisms and inanimate objects. Existence is immensely valuable because it is purposeful, i.e. a source of opportunities for development, creativity, fulfilment and enjoyment. How can purposeful activity emerge from that which lacks purpose? It is far more reasonable to believe the universe is the valuable result of Design rather a valueless phenomenon which exists for no reason whatsoever. If only matter exists then nothing matters!
 
The lion and gazelle have different moral perspectives on the lion’s dinner.
 
The lion and gazelle have different moral perspectives on the lion’s dinner.
I’m not sure if this holds true in regard to animals, since they are not rational beings, and, at least according to Christianity, have no “moral law” given to them.

Now, let us put in two humans here: the Jew and Nazi have different moral perspectives about the concentration camp. But surely, one of these perspectives is “more wrong” than another? If we can say this truly, then there must be some common, transcendent notion we are appealing to. If not, then their perspectives on concentration camps are no different than their love of cheeses or their favorite color. All value is personal preference, or “what pleases” the individual.
 
So is there any help to bust his ‘logic’ and help my case?
I agree with him about fallacious assumptions - if a moral imperative makes no sense unless we believe a god ordered it then it still makes no sense. Otherwise anyone could set up a religion and do whatever they say their god wants of them. It would be total mayhem out there! The fact that we don’t do things that way means we start from at least one premise: moral imperatives must make sense in our society.

The problem with wanting absolute moral standards is there’s no universally accepted source. Even if everyone agreed to use the Bible, they would then argue about whether it’s bad to plant mixed crops, eat shellfish and so on.

It’s exceptionally difficult to argue that we aren’t all a little bit relativist. Different Christian churches don’t agree on what’s absolute, and if you look around CAF you’ll find that even Catholics don’t agree.
 
I’m not sure if this holds true in regard to animals, since they are not rational beings, and, at least according to Christianity, have no “moral law” given to them.

Now, let us put in two humans here: the Jew and Nazi have different moral perspectives about the concentration camp. But surely, one of these perspectives is “more wrong” than another? If we can say this truly, then there must be some common, transcendent notion we are appealing to. If not, then their perspectives on concentration camps are no different than their love of cheeses or their favorite color. All value is personal preference, or “what pleases” the individual.
This argument only works if we add, “but moral values are not personal preferences,” and I don’t see any reason to do that. What is so intolerable about concluding that values are, like all other values, dependent the person doing the valuing? Frankly, I don’t even know what it means to suggest otherwise.

The implication here seems to be that since moral values are very important to us, then they cannot reduce merely to subjective preferences. But why can’t we take our own preferences to be important to us? Can we only have weak preferences, but never strong preferences? This seems to me to be an untenable line of argument.
 
It’s exceptionally difficult to argue that we aren’t all a little bit relativist. Different Christian churches don’t agree on what’s absolute, and if you look around CAF you’ll find that even Catholics don’t agree.
No, for the Tao allows development from within. From The Abolition of Man:

Does this mean, then, that no progress in our perceptions of value can ever take place? That we are bound down for ever to an unchanging code given once for all? And is it, in any event, possible to talk of obeying what I call the Tao? If we lump together, as I have done, the traditional moralities of East and West, the Christian, the Pagan, and the Jew, shall we not find many contradictions and some absurdities? I admit all this. Some criticism, some removal of contradictions, even some real development, is required. But there are two very different kinds of criticism.

A theorist about language may approach his native tongue, as it were from outside, regarding its genius as a thing that has no claim on him and advocating wholesale alterations of its idiom and spelling in the interests of commercial convenience or scientific accuracy. That is one thing. A great poet, who has ‘loved, and been well nurtured in, his mother tongue’, may also make great alterations in it, but his changes of the language are made in the spirit of the language itself: he works from within. The language which suffers, has also inspired the changes. That is a different thing—as different as the works of Shakespeare are from Basic English. It is the difference between alteration from within and alteration from without: between the organic and the surgical. In the same way, the Tao admits development from within. There is a difference between a real moral advance and a mere innovation. From the Confucian ‘Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you’ to the Christian ‘Do as you would be done by’ is a real advance. The morality of Nietzsche is a mere innovation. The first is an advance because no one who did not admit the validity of the old maxim could see reason for accepting the new one, and anyone who accepted the old would at once recognize the new as an extension of the same principle. If he rejected it, he would have to reject it as a superfluity, something that went too far, not as something simply heterogeneous from his own ideas of value. But the Nietzschean ethic can be accepted only if we are ready to scrap traditional morals as a mere error and then to put ourselves in a position where we can find no ground for any value judgements at all. It is the difference between a man who says to us: ‘You like your vegetables moderately fresh; why not grow your own and have them perfectly fresh?’ and a man who says, ‘Throw away that loaf and try eating bricks and centipedes instead.’

Those who understand the spirit of the Tao and who have been led by that spirit can modify it in directions which that spirit itself demands. Only they can know what those directions are. The outsider knows nothing about the matter. His attempts at alteration, as we have seen, contradict themselves. So far from being able to harmonize discrepancies in its letter by penetration to its spirit, he merely snatches at some one precept, on which the accidents of time and place happen to have riveted his attention, and then rides it to death—for no reason that he can give. From within the Tao itself comes the only authority to modify the Tao.

When differences in doctrine arise, one of us is wrong and the other may be right or wrong. The Catholic and the Baptist appeal to a universal truth; we do not disregard the notion of truth to make each of us equally “right.” We’ll find out when we die who had the right idea, if anyone, and who had the wrong idea, nearly everyone, but we will not find that there is more than one absolute truth.
 
When differences in doctrine arise, one of us is wrong and the other may be right or wrong. The Catholic and the Baptist appeal to a universal truth; we do not disregard the notion of truth to make each of us equally “right.” We’ll find out when we die who had the right idea, if anyone, and who had the wrong idea, nearly everyone, but we will not find that there is more than one absolute truth.
That’s what I mean about having no universally accepted source. If we can only know who was right when we die then none of us can claim to know moral absolutes while here on Earth.
 
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