Moral Relativism

[PRmerger]

No, they are going “above and beyond”.

A very pedestrian example - If one is given the order “wipe off the kitchen table” and then also cleans the whole kitchen - they are going “above and beyond” the order. Cleaning the whole kitchen isn’t the logical conclusion.

Fair enough. They went above and beyond.

 

[jonfawkes]

Stop it.

Don’t be inflammatory. You know you are talking to a Catholic and saying such things is contemptuous of my beliefs.

Now back to the discussion: if the soldier did this with Jesus in mind, then I have no argument with you here.

But then it goes back to the primordial discussion: one needs Jesus to have great sacrificial love. There* is* no other way.

I’m not being inflammatory you are saying something contradictory to Jesus and feel the need to change his statement.

Edit: but it may not be. So I amend–laying one’s life down is not inherently loving.

vs

No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

He says it is a loving act and you say not necessarily. You saying He’s wrong, or misguided in the least.

 

[ddarko]

No, they are going “above and beyond”.

A very pedestrian example - If one is given the order “wipe off the kitchen table” and then also cleans the whole kitchen - they are going “above and beyond” the order. Cleaning the whole kitchen isn’t the logical conclusion.

Once again, they are still following orders no?

There is no FREE giving of their lives for a stranger (in general). This is not to say there sacrifice is meaningless but it is certainly not as expressive as Max.'s

Also, I think you missed my reply to you in post #452.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

I’m not being inflammatory you are saying something contradictory to Jesus and feel the need to change his statement.

Actually, do you consider a Soldier’s sacrifice and Jesus’s sacrifice in the same category? Are they equal?

God Bless

 

[jonfawkes]

Once again, they are still following orders no?

There is no FREE giving of their lives for a stranger (in general). This is not to say there sacrifice is meaningless but it is certainly not as expressive as Max.'s

Also, I think you missed my reply to you in post #452.

God Bless

No, they are going beyond their orders. There is a free giving. They choose to go the extra mile, no one orders it.

 

[jonfawkes]

Actually, do you consider a Soldier’s sacrifice and Jesus’s sacrifice in the same category? Are they equal?

God Bless

I know Jesus’ sacrifice to the ultimate but I struggle sometimes with seeing the significant difference of say a fireman laying down his life to help save a stranger, or Max Kolbe or anyone that sacrifices their life as different from Jesus.

Jesus knew existence outside his mortal being, men don’t. Jesus knew that he came to the world to be sacrificed, man doesn’t. Jesus knew that he would be seated at the right hand of the Father, we can only hope. We go by faith, He went by knowledge.

I’m still struggling with it.

 

[PRmerger]

He says it is a loving act and you say not necessarily. You saying He’s wrong, or misguided in the least.

Jon, Jesus does not say that a soldier’s valorous act is out of love.

When one gives his life for a friend out of love it can be the greatest act of love. But not every single act of valor, or even every act of giving one’s life (see post #447) is the greatest act of love.

 

[PRmerger]

No, they are going beyond their orders. There is a free giving. They choose to go the extra mile, no one orders it.

You know, I’m thinking that this is NOT the case, else every single soldier that dies in the military would have their families suing the armed services. They would (rightfully) say: no one told my son that he might have to give his life when he signed up for this.

:whacky:

Clearly, each and every soldier knows that he may be ordered to give his life.

Now, perhaps to the extent that an 18 year old knows that he may be ordered to give his life, yet still signs on the dotted line, perhaps his decision is free at that point.

But really, it’s his duty to give his life. He’s just following orders.

 

[jonfawkes]

When one gives his life for a friend out of love it can be the greatest act of love.

Not can be, is. You are modifying his statement.

 

[PRmerger]

Not can be, is. You are modifying his statement.

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.

But, again, not every act of laying down one’s life, even for a friend, falls into this category.

And, even if it does, there’s still a difference in essence, quality and substance between a soldier following orders and Maximilian Kolbe giving his life FREELY and out of great LOVE.

 

[PRmerger]

I know Jesus’ sacrifice to the ultimate but I struggle sometimes with seeing the significant difference of say a fireman laying down his life to help save a stranger, or Max Kolbe or anyone that sacrifices their life as different from Jesus.

Jesus knew existence outside his mortal being, men don’t. Jesus knew that he came to the world to be sacrificed, man doesn’t. Jesus knew that he would be seated at the right hand of the Father, we can only hope. We go by faith, He went by knowledge.

I’m still struggling with it.

To the degree that their sacrifice is joined to the atoning death of Christ then their sacrifice is indeed a participation in the redemption of humanity.

And that brings me to another thought: Maximilian Kolbe’s sacrifice, as a Catholic and as a priest, was indeed joined to that of Christ. Therefore its merit is supremely more than a soldier who dies as his duty.

 

[jonfawkes]

You know, I’m thinking that this is NOT the case, else every single soldier that dies in the military would have their families suing the armed services. They would (rightfully) say: no one told my son that he might have to give his life when he signed up for this.

:whacky:

Clearly, each and every soldier knows that he may be ordered to give his life.

Now, perhaps to the extent that an 18 year old knows that he may be ordered to give his life, yet still signs on the dotted line, perhaps his decision is free at that point.

But really, it’s his duty to give his life. He’s just following orders.

It’s not the act of dying that is significant. If a group is locked down in a position they may all die. (duty/orders) - They can all dig in, hold their position and go down together. That is the inherent risk that “comes with the job” - you may die in this job.

If one chooses to sacrifice himself so that the others may live. That is the significant act. That is going above and beyond. Giving the others the gift of (continued) life by sacrificing their life. Drawing fire so the others can get away, charging the enemy position etc. They choose - you go on, my journey ends here. That is the significant act.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not the act of dying that is significant. If a group is locked down in a position they may all die. (duty/orders) - They can all dig in, hold their position and go down together. That is the inherent risk that “comes with the job” - you may die in this job.

Yes! EXACTLY!

Therein lies the profound difference in quality and substance and essence between someone who knows he may die on the job, and a man who’s a prisoner and offers his life in exchange for a complete stranger, out of his love for God.

If one chooses to sacrifice himself so that the others may live. That is the significant act. That is going above and beyond. Giving the others the gift of (continued) life by sacrificing their life. Drawing fire so the others can get away, charging the enemy position etc. They choose - you go on, my journey ends here. That is the significant act.

Of course it’s significant, jon.

But it’s still, as even you acknowledge, something that comes with the job though.

Point couldn’t have been made better meself!

 

[jonfawkes]

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.

But, again, not every act of laying down one’s life, even for a friend, falls into this category.

How are you resolving this in your head? There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend. It isn’t a conditional statement. There isn’t a “sometimes” or “under these conditions” or " can be" in the statement.

 

[jonfawkes]

And that’s what makes it a sacrifice rather than duty. The free choice. It is in line with

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.

They choose to die.

 

[PRmerger]

How are you resolving this in your head? There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend. It isn’t a conditional statement. There isn’t a “sometimes” or “under these conditions” or " can be" in the statement.

I give that a hearty amen, jon!

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.

I’m just saying that a soldier’s heroic act may not necessarily fall into this category. Especially if he did not do so freely and out of love.

Especially if it was not joined to the redemptive act of Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

It was heroic, and valorous, and he was following his duty. But the same as someone like Maximilian Kolbe? Not so much.

 

[PRmerger]

And that’s what makes it a sacrifice rather than duty. The free choice. It is in line with

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.

They choose to die.

Yes. They choose to die when they sign on the dotted line.

So, by remote cooperation, (and very very remote this is indeed!) they are freely following their orders when they give their life.

But they know this is what they signed up for, like you said.

 

[jonfawkes]

You seem to be under the impression that a soldiers job is to die, be cannon fodder etc. The possibility is there, it isn’t an inevitability. There are other high risk jobs like firemen and police that they sometimes lay down their lives for others. Are you saying their jobs of service negate their sacrifices. “Hey! you knew what you were getting into, sorry”

 

[PRmerger]

You seem to be under the impression that a soldiers job is to die, be cannon fodder etc.

No, not at all. That’s not a soldier’s job. But it is (and here I will quote you) “the inherent risk that “comes with the job” - you may die in this job.”

But he certainly know that’s

Yes. And this is profound. It changes everything, doesn’t it, between his valorous act and that of Maximilian Kolbe’s.

The possibility is there,

Yup. That’s why it’s so different in quality and substance and essence from Maximilian’s.

it isn’t an inevitability.

Of course it’s not inevitable. Thank goodness for that!

There are other high risk jobs like firemen and police that they sometimes lay down their lives for others.

Certainly.

Are you saying their jobs of service negate their sacrifices. “Hey! you knew what you were getting into, sorry”

Not at all. No “sorry” about it whatsoever. But it does impact the quality and substance and essence of their loss of life, as compared to Maximilian Kolbe, who didn’t do this as part of his job.

 

[ddarko]

I know Jesus’ sacrifice to the ultimate but I struggle sometimes with seeing the significant difference of say a fireman laying down his life to help save a stranger, or Max Kolbe or anyone that sacrifices their life as different from Jesus.

Jesus knew existence outside his mortal being, men don’t. Jesus knew that he came to the world to be sacrificed, man doesn’t. Jesus knew that he would be seated at the right hand of the Father, we can only hope. We go by faith, He went by knowledge.

I’m still struggling with it.

I wouldn’t say it is totally different. It is a sacrifice nevertheless BUT it is of, if you will, a lesser value compared to that of Christ.

Christ freely choose to die for us.

As for the case of a fireman, it is mainly his duty when he runs in to a burning fire. In the process, he might have to sacrifice his life and it is truly valiant. BUT it would not be as valiant as a bystander who after much contemplation runs in to a burning building to save the life of a child and looses his life (I say after contemplation because many of us can do crazy things in panic ).

Or think about it this way, the Fireman and Soldier get PAID to do what they are doing. Saints like Max. freely CHOOSE to do what they are doing WITHOUT any money return (not that it would matter ).

Now this is again not to say that the fireman’s sacrifice is useless BUT rather that the nature of the sacrifice is different.

So in the case of Christ, we have someone who is FREE as he can be. He has no obligation TO US. He is God, we are humans. YET, he freely choose to sacrifice his life for US. In a sense, Christ’s sacrifice cannot be matched by any other because we are never as FREE as Christ is in our obligations and duty to humanity.

Was that a bit more clarifying perhaps?

God Bless