Moral Relativism

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Please accept my apology as it seems I’ve unintentionally offended you. As a point of clarification, I was speaking to moral nihilism and not nihilism in general. I cite the following:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism
Apologies right back at you if I made you think I was offended - you have nothing to apologize for.

You’ll see from your reference that moral nihilism is a denial that statements have any truth values. Both relativism and absolutism say yes they have, relativism observing there are disagreements about the values while absolutism claims one or more are fixed and inviolate come what may.

I will admit to being frustrating at times by absolutists’ concentration on picking apart other views while not putting forward a positive case for how absolutism works across different religions and cultures. It may be obvious to them but it certainly isn’t to me.

Be interesting to know how an absolutist works out whether GM crops are good (combat hunger) or bad (Western imperial yoke). I suspect it’s by discussion and consensus, followed after a suitable pause by a claim that whatever was agreed must have been right all along. Or is that too cynical? 😃
 
Yes, I do see where it’s coming from. I’m familiar with such studies/theorizing. So what’s the relevance? What’s *your *argument?
That is my argument.
Relevance?
You asked “As far as a specific question like contraception goes, certainly I see no reason why there shouldn’t be an objectively correct application of absolute principles to such questions. Do you?” and I replied with a case where absolute principles are taken (for me at least) to bizarre extremes.
 
I won’t make the case, since I don’t buy it. I was just figuring that inocente probably had it in mind. I’m most familiar with it from a blog run by Larry Arnhart called Darwinian Conservatism. For instance, this post. If you’re interested in a more academic defense, you could search the blog or look into his book.
I disagree with Arnhart wanting to separate desires from conventions. The issue is who gets to decree the status of right-handedness or heterosexuality, and why we should believe them.
 
That is my argument.
All of what you posted (a rather meandering kind of argument)? Or specifically this (which clearly has the structure of an actual argument):

We have here the beginnings of a debunking explanation of moral realism: we believe in moral realism because moral experience has a perceptual phenomenology, and moral experience has a perceptual phenomenology because natural selection has outfitted us with mechanisms for making intuitive, emotion-based moral judgements, much as it has outfitted us with mechanisms for making intuitive, emotion-based judgements about who among us are the most suitable mates. Therefore, we can understand our inclination towards moral realism not as an insight into the nature of moral truth, but as a by-product of the efficient cognitive processes we use to make moral decisions. According to this view, moral realism is akin to naive realism about sexiness, like making the understandable mistake of thinking that Tom Cruise is objectively sexier than his baboon counterparts. - wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/…s-Ought-03.pdf
You asked “As far as a specific question like contraception goes, certainly I see no reason why there shouldn’t be an objectively correct application of absolute principles to such questions. Do you?” and I replied with a case where absolute principles are taken (for me at least) to bizarre extremes.
Okay - then that was just a question-begging appeal to emotion on your part, since you provided no reason for thinking that these ‘extremes’ are bizarre.
 
All of what you posted (a rather meandering kind of argument)?
Yes. And thankfully, as you understood it or at least in part, I’m going to rest a while from defending my corner and look forward to hearing some positive arguments from the opposition for their case.
Okay - then that was just a question-begging appeal to emotion on your part, since you provided no reason for thinking that these ‘extremes’ are bizarre.
In order to provide a solitary medical sample without sinning, a single guy must find a girl, fall in love, get married, then use a condom with specially made holes, a holey condom :). Yet neither God nor anyone is allowed to see any comedy in this. Why not shimmy on over to Ask An Apologist and ask whether it might just be taking absolutism to bizarre new levels.
 
In order to provide a solitary medical sample without sinning, a single guy must find a girl, fall in love, get married, then use a condom with specially made holes, a holey condom :). Yet neither God nor anyone is allowed to see any comedy in this. Why not shimmy on over to Ask An Apologist and ask whether it might just be taking absolutism to bizarre new levels.
Still nothing here but a fallacious appeal to emotion/popular attitudes. :o
 
… recent evidence from neuroscience and neighbouring disciplines indicates that moral judgement is often an intuitive, emotional matter. Although many moral judgements are difficult, much moral judgement is accomplished in an intuitive, effortless way. An interesting feature of many intuitive, effortless cognitive processes is that they are accompanied by a perceptual phenomenology. For example, humans can effortlessly determine whether a given face is male or female without any knowledge of how such judgements are made. When you look at someone, you have no experience of working out whether that person is male or female. You just see that person’s maleness or femaleness. By contrast, you do not look at a star in the sky and see that it is receding. One can imagine creatures that automatically process spectroscopic redshifts, but as humans we do not. All of this makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. We have evolved mechanisms for making quick, emotion-based social judgements, for ‘seeing’ rightness and wrongness, because our intensely social lives favour such capacities, but there was little selective pressure on our ancestors to know about the movements of distant stars.
There’s no argument for relativism here yet. Agreed? Instead the suggestion is that the existence of a particular ‘perceptual phenomenology’ - regardless of how it came about, evolution or otherwise - indicates the existence of a particular reality (i.e., maleness/femaleness). (The point about the stars seems entirely naive.)
… We have here the beginnings of a debunking explanation of moral realism: we believe in moral realism because moral experience has a perceptual phenomenology, and moral experience has a perceptual phenomenology because natural selection has outfitted us with mechanisms for making intuitive, emotion-based moral judgements, much as it has outfitted us with mechanisms for making intuitive, emotion-based judgements about who among us are the most suitable mates. Therefore, we can understand our inclination towards moral realism not as an insight into the nature of moral truth, but as a by-product of the efficient cognitive processes we use to make moral decisions. According to this view, moral realism is akin to naive realism about sexiness, like making the understandable mistake of thinking that Tom Cruise is objectively sexier than his baboon counterparts. - wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/GreeneWJH/Greene-NRN-Is-Ought-03.pdf
This section ignores what I just pointed out and thus commits a rather gross non sequitur.
It’s worth reading the whole paper (four pages). Many people do instinctively believe in absolutes, but the key word is instinctively – we are looking at our own navels and being fooled in our introspection.
Sure, but this is not true of everybody, in particular it is not true of moral philosophers. So your comments about the hoi polloi are irrelevant, a red herring.
To use the author’s metaphors, we acknowledge that beauty is in the mind of the beholder and therefore a sunset is not absolutely beautiful, beauty is relative. Yet we may instinctively think Tom Cruise or Nicole Kidman is absolutely sexy compared to a baboon or a frog, even to the extent that a male frog would find a fairytale princess more attractive than a female frog. On reflection we realize this is entirely naive, that sexiness is in the eye of the beholder, that sexiness is also relative.
Oh, do we recognize all that? I don’t. Do you have any reason for believing what you’ve written other than your far-fetched appeals to popular ‘recognition’? Do you know of any moral philosophers who would swallow what you’ve written here? Do you know anyone who would swallow what you’ve written here? It sounds like deplorable nonsense to me. (No one I know is ‘instinctively’ inclined to think that a frog would find Nicole Kidman or Tom Cruise sexy - lol!)
In both cases we evolved to make rapid decisions emotively and intuitively. All that is being said is that morality is similar in kind, and just as we can’t determine beauty or sexiness entirely rationally, the way we process morality and come to decisions also involves instinctive intuition.
But again, that’s not what we do in the context of moral philosophy,* which is the relevant context for this discussion. So this is again a red herring.

*Well, maybe you do - but I wish you’d stop! ;))
Then of course beyond that the content of morality itself involves subjectivity. If you decide to take your wife and kids on holiday, knowing you could instead donate the cost to starving kids on the other side of the world, you are making a value judgment, weighing the well-being of yourself and your family with the well-being of others you’ll never meet. Your personal values are partly decided by our evolved state, our culture and your own life experience, none of which were determined rationally.
I have no idea how this is supposed to be relevant.
The evidence from different fields is that this is who we are, and by understanding this about ourselves we can understand the history of morality and make better decisions. It’s reasonable to conclude it will shortly be taught in Psychology 101 and Ethics 101, if it isn’t already.
Er, right… what evidence, from what different fields, shows that? I think you’ve jumped a few steps in your argument there. You’re just begging the question at this point.
 
So your comments about the hoi polloi are irrelevant, a red herring.
😃
Oh, do we recognize all that? I don’t. Do you have any reason for believing what you’ve written other than your far-fetched appeals to popular ‘recognition’? Do you know of any moral philosophers who would swallow what you’ve written here? Do you know anyone who would swallow what you’ve written here? It sounds like deplorable nonsense to me. (No one I know is ‘instinctively’ inclined to think that a frog would find Nicole Kidman or Tom Cruise sexy - lol!)
You might think so, but I’ve seen people laboring under that impression right here on CAF. Really. More than once. Your comment about philosophers reminds me of Richard Fenyman’s joke:

*Do we see objects or only their light?

The question of whether or not, when you see something, you see only the light or you see the thing you’re looking at, is one of those dopey philosophical things that an ordinary person has no difficulty with.

Even the most profound philosopher, in sitting eating his dinner, hasn’t any difficulty in making out that what he looks at perhaps might only be the light from the steak, but it still implies the existence of the steak, which he’s able to lift by the fork to his mouth.

The philosophers who were unable to make that analysis have fallen by the wayside through hunger. :D*
Er, right… what evidence, from what different fields, shows that? I think you’ve jumped a few steps in your argument there. You’re just begging the question at this point.
As I said to Soldier, I’m done defending for a while. It’s really easy to find flaws in someone else’s words, and I’d like to do a bit of it myself except that absolutists appear unwilling or unable to present a positive case. Relativism explains the real world while on the evidence of this thread, absolutism has zero, zilch, zip, nada explanatory power.

A primary criticism of moral absolutism regards how we come to know what the ‘absolute’ morals are. The authorities that are quoted as sources of absolute morality are all subject to human interpretation, and multiple views abound on them. For morals to be truly absolute, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority. Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called ‘absolute’. So even if there are absolute morals, there will never be universal agreement on just what those morals are, making them by definition unknowable. - wordiq.com/definition/Moral_absolutism

Response?
 
You might think so, but I’ve seen people laboring under that impression right here on CAF. Really. More than once.
  1. I don’t believe you.
  2. That’s irrelevant - there are plenty of irrational people on CAF who say silly things (sorry, but you included :D).
Your comment about philosophers reminds me of Richard Fenyman’s joke:
Do we see objects or only their light?
The question of whether or not, when you see something, you see only the light or you see the thing you’re looking at, is one of those dopey philosophical things that an ordinary person has no difficulty with.
Even the most profound philosopher, in sitting eating his dinner, hasn’t any difficulty in making out that what he looks at perhaps might only be the light from the steak, but it still implies the existence of the steak, which he’s able to lift by the fork to his mouth.
The philosophers who were unable to make that analysis have fallen by the wayside through hunger. 😃
That’s a joke? I think I missed the punch line.
As I said to Soldier, I’m done defending for a while. It’s really easy to find flaws in someone else’s words, and I’d like to do a bit of it myself except that absolutists appear unwilling or unable to present a positive case. Relativism explains the real world while on the evidence of this thread, absolutism has zero, zilch, zip, nada explanatory power.
If you’re done defending, perhaps the intellectually honest thing to do would be to NOT just dogmatically repeat your position yet one more time, as if to pretend that you have actually provided an intelligible defense of that position?

And really how honest is this: “It’s really easy to find flaws in someone else’s words” - but you can’t do it yourself? It’s only easy to find flaws when those flaws exist, surely? So wouldn’t the honest thing to do be to frankly admit the real flaws in your position, instead of just dogmatically insisting that it “explains the real world” blah blah blah? Seriously. Honesty.
A primary criticism of moral absolutism regards how we come to know what the ‘absolute’ morals are. The authorities that are quoted as sources of absolute morality are all subject to human interpretation, and multiple views abound on them. For morals to be truly absolute, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority. Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called ‘absolute’. So even if there are absolute morals, there will never be universal agreement on just what those morals are, making them by definition unknowable. - wordiq.com/definition/Moral_absolutism
Response?
Everything is subject to human interpretation. That is not grounds for thinking that all human interpretations are legitimate. Absolutism is a human interpretation, just as relativism is. So you could take the paragraph above and switch the terms “absolute” and “relative” and it would be just as true, and just as misleading and irrelevant. Can you see that?

The argument is extremely naive. Isn’t it like saying, if we disagree about the nature of our perception of the steak, then there is no real steak? So it turns out that the ‘joke’ you mentioned earlier is on you!
 
The argument is extremely naive. Isn’t it like saying, if we disagree about the nature of our perception of the steak, then there is no real steak? So it turns out that the ‘joke’ you mentioned earlier is on you!
Strawman -

It’s like saying that there is only one way to cook a steak (absolutism) or multiple ways (relativism)

Absolutism says morality is absolute and universal so bears the burden of proof. Relativism says disagreement is part of the process.
 
Strawman -

It’s like saying that there is only one way to cook a steak (absolutism) or multiple ways (relativism)

Absolutism says morality is absolute and universal so bears the burden of proof. Relativism says disagreement is part of the process.
Do you have an authoritative source for these definitions?
 
Strawman -

It’s like saying that there is only one way to cook a steak (absolutism) or multiple ways (relativism)

Absolutism says morality is absolute and universal so bears the burden of proof. Relativism says disagreement is part of the process.
Would your accept your prime rib well done?
 
No point continuing then, I’ve had enough of insults and claims of hollow victories. See you around.
LOL! I’m just being honest. You say: “trust me - people on CAF labor under the impression that frogs find movie stars sexy”; I say: “I don’t believe you.” Where’s the insult? I’d love to see you substantiate your little “trust me: I’ve seen it” - instead you resort to self-righteousness and ignore what I said. I’d have thought there was no point in doing any of that - but suit yourself. 🤷
 
Strawman -

It’s like saying that there is only one way to cook a steak (absolutism) or multiple ways (relativism)
No it’s not. It’s like saying the steak exists (absolutism) or it doesn’t (people only say it does). Or maybe you’re right? If you are, please explain what “the steak” is and what the “cooking” is in your analogy.
Absolutism says morality is absolute and universal so bears the burden of proof.
That’s a non sequitur.
Relativism says disagreement is part of the process.
Part of *what *process?
 
No point continuing then, I’ve had enough of insults and claims of hollow victories. See you around.
Let me add that when you simply ignore the arguments against your position, you may convince yourself, but even according to the Romans 14 criterion, there is no reason to think we are justified because we have convinced ourselves to ignore the evidence. In other words, I have a hard time believing that you are *invincibly *ignorant. You seem to be reasoning as one who is *wilfully *ignorant. Surely you don’t think you can appeal to Romans 14 to justify this? Isn’t this instead something for which you will have to render account before the judgment seat of God?

**
 
Would your accept your prime rib well done?
Actually it would be relative to the restaurant where I am ordering the dinner. Each restaurant has a slightly different version of what “well done” means.
 
…As I said to Soldier, I’m done defending for a while. It’s really easy to find flaws in someone else’s words, and I’d like to do a bit of it myself except that absolutists appear unwilling or unable to present a positive case. Relativism explains the real world while on the evidence of this thread, absolutism has zero, zilch, zip, nada explanatory power.
Moral absolutism is nothing more than a form of faith in the supernatural. 🤷 How does one argue over the validity of the supernatural? 🤷
 
Actually it would be relative to the restaurant where I am ordering the dinner. Each restaurant has a slightly different version of what “well done” means.
So true.

Just the other night I received a “rare” steak not to my liking. I argued that “rare is rare is rare” and then realized that I was channeling Gertrude Stein, a prominent relativist! 😃
 
No it’s not. It’s like saying the steak exists (absolutism) or it doesn’t (people only say it does). Or maybe you’re right? If you are, please explain what “the steak” is and what the “cooking” is in your analogy.

That’s a non sequitur.
Part of *what *process?
Steak is morality - absolute morality claims there is one way to cook it. Relativism many ways. Denying that there is only one way doesn’t deny the existence of the steak. Affirming that there is more than one way doesn’t deny the existence of the steak.

Absolute morality claims that there are moral absolutes - the burden of proof is on them to prove their existence. ( we’re waiting 😃 )

Relativism sees morality as a process steeped in the society it inhabits. Differing opinions are part of the process of determining morality. Morality is mutable.
 
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