Morality and Subjectivity

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I saw that you added “objective or subjective?” asked about the nature of truth. The point is that truth doesn’t have a “nature” (which I realize is a problem for anyone who wants to identify Truth with God). It is simply the compliment we pay to sentences that are true.
A compliment implies some kind of achievement of the part of the sentence! How would you explain the difference between a true sentence and a false one? (It seems a simple question but some of the apparently simple questions are the most difficult…)
Now certain truths may be objective and certain truths may be subjective. It is objectively true that I live outside of Philadelphia.That fact can be verified by anyone at any time.
So that truth remains a truth even if it is never recognised as a truth. To that extent it is independent of a people’s opinion.
It is subjectively true that I do not have a headache right now. While this is a fact, it cannot be verified publically. It is a subjective truth.
As having a headache is a physical condition it is conceivable that scientists may eventually day be able to verify it. Would it then cease to be a subjective truth? (I’m trying to find out the implications of subjectivity…
It seems like people in this thread are making a general judgment that objective is good or real and subjective is bad or not really real. The distinction is about our epistemic context and is neither a good or bad thing in general.
Also, I see no reason to think of subjective truths as any less true than objective truths. Subjective and objective are not so much different ways of being true (truth is truth), they are just different contexts in which we can confidently apply the same concept.
That seems to establish the validity of subjective truths as evidence - if there is no reason to suppose a person is guilty of deception or self-deception.
In other words, when I say that it is true that I don’t have a headache and it is true that I live outside of Philadelphia, the word “true” is functioning in the same way in both assertions, truth itself does not have a subjective or objective nature. It can be applied in both sorts of contexts where “true” means the same thing in either case.
It depends on how we define those terms. It could be that in such cases truth is both subjective and objective.
 
A compliment implies some kind of achievement of the part of the sentence!
It’s just an analogy!
How would you explain the difference between a true sentence and a false one? (It seems a simple question but some of the apparently simple questions are the most difficult…)
That’s the problem. This seems like a simple question, but in the over 2 millenia of the history of philosophy, no one has ever found a theory of truth that helps us distinguish between true and false statements. It seems like we might do well to give up on this project. Pretty much everyone understands truth well enough to use the term appropriately in sentences anyway.
So that truth remains a truth even if it is never recognised as a truth. To that extent it is independent of a people’s opinion.
Yes. The truth of a proposition is completely independent of whether or not anyone believes it,
As having a headache is a physical condition it is conceivable that scientists may eventually day be able to verify it. Would it then cease to be a subjective truth? (I’m trying to find out the implications of subjectivity…
The truth of assertions I could make about how the pain feels would still be subjectively true and not objectively because how the pain feels to me could not be measured scientifically. There are still objectively true statements we could make about the situation regarding brain waves or whatever that could be verified.
 
Consciousness I understand to be “awareness of one’s surroundings”, processing external stimuli as part of one’s cognitive processes. By that measure dogs and cats are (normally) conscious. Thus, I think it is true that consciousness is a natural phenomenon, having nothing to do with a spiritual soul, which is a concept I find to be wholly without substantiation as a real, actual entity.
Just so you know TS, the standard Catholic view does not tie consciousness to spiritual souls either. We also believe consciousness is a natural phenomenon. Animals do not have spiritual souls but certainly they are conscious."
But, given what you’ve just allowed – and I agree this is a pretty basic point, but nevertheless one theist get wrapped around the axle on, time and again – we now understand that this sensation is not dispositive for us; if we had a fully natural/materialist mind, we could expect just those very inclinations and intuitions, that we were ‘spiritual souls’ of some kind.
I had a neutral formulation and you’ve construed it tendentiously. This again comes back to the basic point about begging questions, something which you ought to avoid (if you want to dialogue in a constructive way) before worrying about parsimony, a requirement which is much more abstract and subject to differing interpretations (and even though you obviously seem to think that your interpretation is obviously correct/rational/performative, you can’t just presuppose this if you wish to take part in a genuine dialogue; you have to show it). I did not say that “if we had a fully natural/materialist mind, we could expect just those very inclinations and intuitions, that we were ‘spiritual souls’ of some kind”: I don’t think anyone has given any reasons for *expecting *any such thing - on what grounds? Certainly none related to the antecedent in your statement here. The point of what I said was: Even if we adhered (provisionally!) to a materialist view of the mind, our phenomenal grounding for understanding/interpreting mental phenomena would be unchanged. Do you see the difference?
If that’s not clear, that means that our senses there don’t tip things one way or another for us, as the “sense of the spiritual soul” is explained on naturalism, too.
“Explained” in a very weak sense - the naturalist has a story to tell about it. But I think what we’re trying to do here (those of us who are interested in actually trying to *think *about these issues) is to critically examine such stories so as to better understand what can be said for and against them. Right?..
Given parity on that – and this is precisely the kind of situation where parsimony proves its worth, “all else being equal” – the naturalist view yields economy, and the theist explanation is gratuitous in terms of explanatory resources.
…and this kind of comment just begs all kinds of questions and avoids the trouble of having to think.
Well, that’s one particular construal of the term. But it’s certainly not the only one, and not the only one that preserves agency in the compatibilist sense, avoiding Laplacian determinism.
Is this relevant? My point was about the traditional, historical connotations of the concept of free will. It granted that the term has been preserved outside of what I take to be its traditional context (that’s obvious!), but invited reflection on the coherence of/grounds for this preservation. (Here is where I’d have thought you might have mentioned parsimony and the ways in which our ‘psychological comfort’ might encourage us to violate this principle, i.e., by continuing to think of ourselves as having free will when the concept no longer really makes sense. But maybe it does on your view? If so, you need to *explain *this!)
Yes, and I think that goes a ways toward accounting for our mysticism on this subject. The reality of it seems strange, creepy even. I have six kids, three of which are old enough to have matured enough to reach that “creepy” moment where they grasp what you are talking about. It’s definitely an easy way out psychologically to embrace the illusion – the ‘disembodiment’ that we experience. We embrace this “outside-ness” early on (if you read researchers in this area), far earlier than we are able to think in a disciplined, evidence-against-interest way, and by the popular reactions, many and most don’t ever let go of that, even when presented with what we’ve agreed to above.
Parsimony is nice, but when it’s expensive, psychologically, or dislocating, emotionally, out it goes, sometimes. We develop as kids to “see ourselves from the outside” – a mind somehow detached from our body, controlling it, integrated with it, but… beyond it, and once that view congeals, it takes discipline to even wrestle with that view, let alone manage it as part of a mental framework.
In other words: “Yes, I believe that my ‘me’ phenomena are literally ‘inside’ the grey sponge inside my skull - and I don’t care if that sounds weird, I believe it, and anyone who thinks that this weirdness calls for examination simply needs to learn some discipline! I believe lots of weird stuff, but it’s all true… er, that is, performative - trust me! You see, no one does disciplined thinking like me and my set do - after all we stand on the shoulders of giants (Google Scholar).” What - and your opponents do not? They are all simply undisciplined, like immature children, intellectually speaking? I think when you make comments to this effect (which seem to express your basic convictions), you convince yourself and others who already think like you (RDaneel, for instance) - others, not so much.
 
“Emergence” is on of those terms like “information” that is always getting overloaded and confused between casual meanings and technical/applied definitions.

I think the definition you have cited (source?) is not too far off, but is off by enough to get the wrong conclusion when applying it here. Water, for example, has “wetness”, a feature we consider an emergent property, manifest in water-as-liquid where neither hydrogen or oxygen exhibit that feature.

As it turns out, and has been discussed here previously, “wetness” isn’t magic, and while we are just nominally informed now on the mechanics that arise from the physics of combining a hydrogen atom with two oxygen, we can indeed predict and anticipate the feature we call ‘wetness’ in water.

There’s a response to this, then, that says that “wetness” is and was not an emergent property after all. There’s merit in that, but only as a matter of finality, and “in principle” epistemics. Emergence is not, contra the claims of many (and some here), analogous to ‘magic’, or some kind of animist voodoo science for some reason has taken a shine to. Rather, as in the example of ‘wetness’, the mechanics are assumed to be as discoverable in principle as any other natural mechanism or process.

We use “emergent”, as a reflection of the feature’s epistemic status. Particularly, we are interested in using the term when the higher order phenomenon is more readily predictable and modeled on its own terms than by reduction and “bottom up predictions”. That is, we can predict and model thermodynamics on its own terms more readily than we can derive it from the underlying statistical mechanics (that is, the physical dynamics we refer to by ‘statistical mechanics’).

This means that emergent properties are predictable, or more precisely, derivable by lower level physics in principle, but in practice, we come to understand the higher-level dynamics far earlier and more readily than through derivation. We assimilate “wetness”, then, into our knowledge base, into our empirical repository, far earlier than we come to know the physics of hydrogen and oxygen bonds. This we call “emergence”.

We could not, in practice, have begun with our knowledge of hydrogen and oxygen and predicted “wetness”. But “wetness” isn’t magic, and the mechanics required for emergent property explanations lagged far behind the knowledge and experience of hydrogen/oxygen and wetness as first order phenomena.

That’s an admitted subtle, but profound distinction, and one that the brief blurb found by Yahoo! for you missed.

Tim Crane’s book Physicalism and its Discontents is a good resource to consult here – this page link will jump you right to a discussion on just this point:

books.google.com/books?id=oG7J1fQMwzEC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&source=bl&ots=X6FyDCeCj3&sig=EFMdzhF868-fDeWj5eyhf_VuTAs&hl=en&ei=m2YxS7zTN42sngf4-6jyCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBEQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Just a paragraph here, for the large majority that can’t be bothered to click through:

Read beyond that, it’s a quality treatment of the subject.

-TS
It seemed like an interesting read, too bad about the missing pages! I could go into a detailed reply to what you’ve written here, but I’ll try to keep it brief:

First, obviously the concept of emergence is tied to epistemological problems and general problems in philosophy of science. I think that’s obvious. But I don’t see how you’ve gone beyond pointing this out; you don’t seem to have tied your comments to the foregoing discussion of emergent properties in any kind of constructive way. Could you be a little clearer about your point?

For instance, you write: “I think the definition you have cited (source?) is not too far off, but is off by enough to get the wrong conclusion when applying it here.” Regardless of the source (Yahoo! it yourself if you really think it matters;)), the quote expresses my understanding (and obviously not just mine) of what an emergent property is generally supposed to be. Anyway, how is it “off by enough” such that we would “get the wrong conclusion * when applying it here [where, exactly?].” RD had attempted to make an emergentism analogy (for the emergent property of consciousness, etc.) based on the behaviour of refined U-235; your contribution here is interesting, but its apparent pretentions to say something that is relevant to the foregoing discussion seem exaggerated.*
 
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How would you explain the difference between a true sentence and a false one? (It seems a simple question but some of the apparently simple questions are the most difficult…)
Probably a combination of theories will go a long way towards solving the problem, one of them being pragmatism, of course. 🙂
So that truth remains a truth even if it is never recognised as a truth. To that extent it is independent of a people’s opinion.Yes.
The truth of a proposition is completely independent of whether or not anyone believes it.
So you would agree that in at least one respect truth is objectively real - like symmetry, proportion, equality, freedom, purpose and many other “things” considered to be no more than human concepts?
As having a headache is a physical condition it is conceivable that scientists may eventually be able to verify it. Would it then cease to be a subjective truth? (I’m trying to find out the implications of subjectivity…
The truth of assertions I could make about how the pain feels would still be subjectively true and not objectively because how the pain feels to me could not be measured scientifically. There are still objectively true statements we could make about the situation regarding brain waves or whatever that could be verified.

Pain is therefore both subjective and objective. Even a psychosomatic pain without a physical cause may have physical effects…
 
That just means that the Church can be wrong. 🤷
How else would one explain that at one time the teaching of the Church was that torture was allowed under certain circumstances, whereas at a later time the teaching was that torture was not allowed? This is an indication of the subjectivity of morality, although in a limited case.
 
How else would one explain that at one time the teaching of the Church was that torture was allowed under certain circumstances, whereas at a later time the teaching was that torture was not allowed? This is an indication of the subjectivity of morality, although in a limited case.
Why draw that conclusion? Why not draw the conclusion that the Church can be wrong?

Does “good” equal “what the Church teaches”? This seems like a very problematic view, especially considering that the Church doesn’t teach it. :confused:
 
Why draw that conclusion? Why not draw the conclusion that the Church can be wrong?

Does “good” equal “what the Church teaches”? This seems like a very problematic view, especially considering that the Church doesn’t teach it. :confused:
I thought that the Catholic Church was infallible in faith and morals. If it is infallible, then at one time it was not a sin to torture someone under certain limited circumstances, whereas now it is a sin. So we have to conclude that wheter or not it is moral to torture someone is subjective since it would depend on the time and circumstances of the activity.
 
What about the Ten Commandments as objective morality?
Surely, the ten commandments are the standard.

As for Utilitarianism, well it is such a flawed set of ethics I am flabbergasted that Catholics would entertain it for a second. It is anti-Christian in so many ways and it has so many sub-branches it is almost an incoherent set of principles.

Subjective morality is a slippery slope of self justification for whatever standards of behaviour suit you at any given time.
I would say that all morality is going to be subjective as the variables surrounding any given situation are going to be different and we can play the what-if game all day.
 
I thought that the Catholic Church was infallible in faith and morals. If it is infallible, then at one time it was not a sin to torture someone under certain limited circumstances, whereas now it is a sin. So we have to conclude that wheter or not it is moral to torture someone is subjective since it would depend on the time and circumstances of the activity.
  1. The Church, so far as I know, never made any authoritative statement accepting torture. Let me know if I’m wrong. (Infallibility only applies to authoritative statements).
  2. If the Church made such a statement, then I’m confident in saying that the Church was wrong. Why? Because the declaration that “torture is wrong” is a statement of eternal and objective truth, like all moral teachings of the Church. Thus, the teaching that “torture is acceptable” is false. You can’t have it both ways.
If you’re interested in the topic, it’s worth looking at catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7390&CFID=23825199&CFTOKEN=64704195
 
  1. The Church, so far as I know, never made any authoritative statement accepting torture. Let me know if I’m wrong. (Infallibility only applies to authoritative statements).
  2. If the Church made such a statement, then I’m confident in saying that the Church was wrong. Why? Because the declaration that “torture is wrong” is a statement of eternal and objective truth, like all moral teachings of the Church. Thus, the teaching that “torture is acceptable” is false. You can’t have it both ways.
If you’re interested in the topic, it’s worth looking at catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7390&CFID=23825199&CFTOKEN=64704195
What is your opinion of the status of the papal bull: ad extirpandum?
 
What is your opinion of the status of the papal bull: ad extirpandum?
I just looked it up. I don’t think it was infallible, if that’s what you’re asking. Quite the contrary; I think it was wrong.

I’m not an expert on infallibility – in fact, I find it to be a curious novelty in the Church, possibly a false teaching itself. That said, I’ll defer to the teachings of the Church as proceeding from Christ, unless my conscience dictates otherwise (and even then, I will *very *carefully discern and seek counsel).
 
I just looked it up. I don’t think it was infallible, if that’s what you’re asking. Quite the contrary; I think it was wrong.

I’m not an expert on infallibility – in fact, I find it to be a curious novelty in the Church, possibly a false teaching itself. That said, I’ll defer to the teachings of the Church as proceeding from Christ, unless my conscience dictates otherwise (and even then, I will *very *carefully discern and seek counsel).
If the papal bull ad exstirpandum is wrong, could the papal bull humanae vitae also be wrong?
 
First, obviously the concept of emergence is tied to epistemological problems and general problems in philosophy of science. I think that’s obvious. But I don’t see how you’ve gone beyond pointing this out; you don’t seem to have tied your comments to the foregoing discussion of emergent properties in any kind of constructive way. Could you be a little clearer about your point?
It’s a much broader problem epistemically than just working out scientific models – this is the problem of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. For example, in science we apply the term “random” to phenomena that occur without discernible pattern, plan or purpose. Note the “discernible”, there, that’s the crucial feature I’m pointing at here. We don’t have any way to say some phenomenon is “fundamentally random”; it may be that there is purpose or patterns driving the phenomena, and just can’t see them.

So is such a phenomenon not random, then? Well, we’re stuck in that case, because we can never establish the “fundamental randomness” of anything. In practice, “random” is a “status” label, and ever subject to change. It’s not an ontological label, but a “level of discovery” label.

Something analogous applies to emergent properties. We come to apprehend phenomena at some level, and other phenomena at a higher level of description. We don’t have a way to synthesize the higher level phenomena form the lower at this point, but like “randomness”, “emergent” gets used to describe the “bridge” of unknowns between the lower level and the higher level dynamics. Like the wetness of water, or other emergent properties we have investigated, at length we might discover a model that predicts and even entails the higher level phenomena. But provisionally, while the level-transcending dynamics of a process or system are still largely unknown, “emergent” is the epistemic label we apply.
For instance, you write: “I think the definition you have cited (source?) is not too far off, but is off by enough to get the wrong conclusion when applying it here.” Regardless of the source (Yahoo! it yourself if you really think it matters;)), the quote expresses my understanding (and obviously not just mine) of what an emergent property is generally supposed to be. Anyway, how is it “off by enough” such that we would “get the wrong conclusion * when applying it here* [where, exactly?].”
The error I was pointing to was the idea that an emergent property must be “unpredictable” in some fundamental sense. That is, we don’t look at the wetness of water say that’s an emergent property only so long as we can not build physical models of hydrogen and oxygen that give rise to what we corroborate through observation as “wetness”. Wetness may be verywell understood, and utterly predictable at some point, and that would not “de-emergify” that property.
That’s important, because the theist retort to appeals to emergence in complex systems is often “hah, that’s just your form of magic and superstition”. If I recall, that’s a line you’ve taken here in this thread. Emergence is not opaque by nature. It’s just as mechanical and natural as anything else in a real world physical model, it’s just “emergent” by virtue of being a second-order dynamic, and thus much more subtle as a target of discovery than first order processes.
RD had attempted to make an emergentism analogy (for the emergent property of consciousness, etc.) based on the behaviour of refined U-235; your contribution here is interesting, but its apparent pretentions to say something that is relevant to the foregoing discussion seem exaggerated.
This is subtle stuff, and its easy to miss the insights, here. And of course, it’s a demanding subject to talk about here with clarity and precision, so it’s a challenge on my part that I may fail to uphold. But emergence is tied into the architecture of causality, and the dynamics of complexity. This is a “double diamond”, if concepts were ski runs.

For here, I think my contribution, if a very simple summary is demanded is that emergence is not magic, not a cousin of superstition, but is applied anti-superstition. It’s the intellectual enterprise that seeks to discover, describe, model and detail the kind of nuanced and spectacularly complex inter-relations of matter and energy that have others throwing up there hands and declaring “it must be God!”.

-TS
 
For example, in science we apply the term “random” to phenomena that occur without discernible pattern, plan or purpose.
this is a mistake because some phenomena are chaotic and appear to be random, but on closer inspection are actually the product of complex nonlinear deterministic systems. Because of the uncertainty principle, there may be a small uncertainty in the initial conditions of these complex nonlinear systems which would then lead to chaotic phenomena indistinguishable from those generated by random processes.
 
this is a mistake because some phenomena are chaotic and appear to be random, but on closer inspection are actually the product of complex nonlinear deterministic systems. Because of the uncertainty principle, there may be a small uncertainty in the initial conditions of these complex nonlinear systems which would then lead to chaotic phenomena indistinguishable from those generated by random processes.
This is precisely the point I was making above. It’s not a mistake, though, until you know it’s a mistake through discerning the non-random production factors for the phenomenon.

It’s the “on closer inspection” variable I was emphasizing here as pedagogy for emergent properties. On deeper analysis, emergent properties may be found to be quite predictable.

But scientific knowledge is a continually developing. What appears random or unpredictable may not appear so some day in the future.

-TS
 
It links these things because it has been defined to do so.
This objection could be raised to any scientific hypothesis! We don’t set out without any idea of what our conclusions will be. We may have to abandon our project altogether - or come to a diametrically opposed conclusion. The more linkages there are of apparently unrelated phenomena the less likely it becomes that the definitions are arbirtary…
The supporting arguments presuppose the assumed conclusion, which is no way to argue a case.
The onus is on you to establish that this is so!
In the absence of evidence, the hypothesis falls to the most elementary scrutiny.
You also have to explain and justify your criteria. Is evidence restricted to sense data? If so your objection collapses instantly! 🙂
 
So might makes right? Do you really have this much faith in majority opinions?
Of course, it is called democracy and we practise it in most other areas of our lives do we not? In politics for example? Most clubs and associations and groups use it to vote their procedures and laws.

It is not just that I have faith in majority opinion. I lack the arrogance of ultimate faith in my own. If I disagree with the majority I will tell people why, campaign, educate, discuss and write. If I fail on voting day I will respect the democratic opinion of the majority, follow their decision, but I will continue to campaign educate, discuss and write in the interim until the next voting day.

What I CERTAINLY have no faith in is strength of the minority, the opposite of what you say. A small group has little basis on which to dictate to the masses.

Quite simply, the only way we have to decide how to live with each other IS each other.
 
If the papal bull ad exstirpandum is wrong, could the papal bull humanae vitae also be wrong?
Delayed response…

Sure. Any statement could be false, from the individual thinker’s perspective, whether or not it calls itself infallible. That’s why we were given brains – to figure it out.
 
Of course, it is called democracy and we practise it in most other areas of our lives do we not? In politics for example? Most clubs and associations and groups use it to vote their procedures and laws.

It is not just that I have faith in majority opinion. I lack the arrogance of ultimate faith in my own. If I disagree with the majority I will tell people why, campaign, educate, discuss and write. If I fail on voting day I will respect the democratic opinion of the majority, follow their decision, but I will continue to campaign educate, discuss and write in the interim until the next voting day.

What I CERTAINLY have no faith in is strength of the minority, the opposite of what you say. A small group has little basis on which to dictate to the masses.

Quite simply, the only way we have to decide how to live with each other IS each other.
I might, in small part, agree with your judgment about governmental decision-making, but government does not legislate morality. By your standards, it seems that Hitler, being an elected leader, had every right to do what he did.
 
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