Morality For Writers?

[RenaissanceMare]

One thing I’ve wondered alot, especially with all the discussions of morality in the media, arts, etc. on here, is what where should artists, namely writers, stand on morality?

In the Popular Media forum I just wrote:

<<<As a writer, I feel it’s important to reflect society, even it’s ills and it’s pain. However, there’s a difference between glorifying it and just presenting it to the reader to decide. I have a few moral boundries in my writing, but for the most part I try to present things neutrally or with a slightly Christian bent to it.>>>

I’ve had people tell me that all of my writing should glorify God, but I feel as long as my writing stays neutral and never speaks against God, I’m good. Think Stephen King…he throws in a little God here and there, never negatively, but for the most part his stories are about other things. Though I don’t write from the horror genre, I tend to write about people overcoming obstacles.

My characters are not perfect, though I try to keep them within certain boundries, like not using the GDs in any circumstance. When they sin, punishment comes in one form or another. All of them are Catholic by default, but in only a few instances is that really any more then a casual mention. I don’t feel that hitting people over the head with religon is always the best approach. I’d rather do it subtlely, even in disguise. Think “Lord of the Rings”.

Some of the things I’ve written about include rape, child abuse, spouse abuse, suicide, depression, mental illness…lots of things that aren’t exactly positive. Life isn’t completely positive. But my wish is that through my character’s struggles I can show that obstacles can be overcome. Of course, I also like to tell a good story too…lol.

I do have an idea for a few Christian stories, and I plan on working on them soon. But my writing will probably always be largely secular. Is this wrong, considering I feel like God put me here and placed the pen in my hand for a reason? My biggest concern right now is writing two memoir-style accounts of my worst two struggles and how I survived. If I make one person out there that’s gone through a similair thing not feel so alone or so hopeless, I feel I’ve started in the direction of doing His work.

So…thoughts on this? Comments?

 

[CapaxDei]

Not all writers are fiction writers. What about writers who write other things?

 

[Guldenat]

One thing I’ve wondered alot, especially with all the discussions of morality in the media, arts, etc. on here, is what where should artists, namely writers, stand on morality?

In the Popular Media forum I just wrote:

<<<As a writer, I feel it’s important to reflect society, even it’s ills and it’s pain. However, there’s a difference between glorifying it and just presenting it to the reader to decide. I have a few moral boundries in my writing, but for the most part I try to present things neutrally or with a slightly Christian bent to it.>>>

I’ve had people tell me that all of my writing should glorify God, but I feel as long as my writing stays neutral and never speaks against God, I’m good. Think Stephen King…he throws in a little God here and there, never negatively, but for the most part his stories are about other things. Though I don’t write from the horror genre, I tend to write about people overcoming obstacles.

My characters are not perfect, though I try to keep them within certain boundries, like not using the GDs in any circumstance. When they sin, punishment comes in one form or another. All of them are Catholic by default, but in only a few instances is that really any more then a casual mention. I don’t feel that hitting people over the head with religon is always the best approach. I’d rather do it subtlely, even in disguise. Think “Lord of the Rings”.

Some of the things I’ve written about include rape, child abuse, spouse abuse, suicide, depression, mental illness…lots of things that aren’t exactly positive. Life isn’t completely positive. But my wish is that through my character’s struggles I can show that obstacles can be overcome. Of course, I also like to tell a good story too…lol.

I do have an idea for a few Christian stories, and I plan on working on them soon. But my writing will probably always be largely secular. Is this wrong, considering I feel like God put me here and placed the pen in my hand for a reason? My biggest concern right now is writing two memoir-style accounts of my worst two struggles and how I survived. If I make one person out there that’s gone through a similair thing not feel so alone or so hopeless, I feel I’ve started in the direction of doing His work.

So…thoughts on this? Comments?

Writing is art, and art imitates life. Think of Graham Greene, a catholic writer. His stories didn’t make every character a saint, not by a long shot. A good story is really all about what the author is saying. My opinion is, immoral things can certainly happen in a story, but the overall goal should be expressing the goodness and creation of God, even if this expression takes a bit of thought and reflection for the reader to understand (think of J.R.R Tolkien).

 

[paradoxy]

Writing is art, and art imitates life. Think of Graham Greene, a catholic writer. His stories didn’t make every character a saint, not by a long shot. A good story is really all about what the author is saying. My opinion is, immoral things can certainly happen in a story, but the overall goal should be expressing the goodness and creation of God, even if this expression takes a bit of thought and reflection for the reader to understand (think of J.R.R Tolkien).

I love Graham Greene.

Glorifying God in your creation does not mean preaching and writing sermons and fables with an explicit ‘moral’ in the end.

Even God did not make this world in such a way that it FORCES us to believe in Him. Why would YOU have to make a world that does?

 

[Guldenat]

I love Graham Greene.

Glorifying God in your creation does not mean preaching and writing sermons and fables with an explicit ‘moral’ in the end.

Even God did not make this world in such a way that it FORCES us to believe in Him. Why would YOU have to make a world that does?

Precisely. I think as long a story does not glorify immorality, then you are in shape. And actually, to rephrase something I wrote in my last post… the purpose of art should delve into the human condition, it’s good points and bad points. A good piece of literature may not mention the Lord at all, but as long as it gives us insight into what it is to be human, that’s the stuff of great art.

 

[edwest2]

Speaking as a Christian, when I die I will have to give an account for all I’ve done. The “human condition” is a vague term and different people interpret it differently. Also, as a writer, I need to have a yardstick by which to judge good and evil. There are evil characters in my stories and good, and it’s easy to tell the difference.

Today, there is too much fiction in all mediums that shows the dark, the dysfunctional and immoral. It is too graphic in its depictions of violence and sex. To me, the wrong things are being celebrated by writers, the perverse, the ugly and the EXtreme.

To me “entertainment” has a particular meaning. Words have a particular meaning. Lately, I’ve been running across a few too many books, even nonfiction, that contain words I will never use.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Guldenat]

Speaking as a Christian, when I die I will have to give an account for all I’ve done. The “human condition” is a vague term and different people interpret it differently. Also, as a writer, I need to have a yardstick by which to judge good and evil. There are evil characters in my stories and good, and it’s easy to tell the difference.

Today, there is too much fiction in all mediums that shows the dark, the dysfunctional and immoral. It is too graphic in its depictions of violence and sex. To me, the wrong things are being celebrated by writers, the perverse, the ugly and the EXtreme.

To me “entertainment” has a particular meaning. Words have a particular meaning. Lately, I’ve been running across a few too many books, even nonfiction, that contain words I will never use.

God bless,
Ed

It sounds to me that you already have the yardstick my friend. In my opinion, their is no reason to go into specific details about, say, a sexual encounter in a book or a movie (or even a painting). For morality purposes, the most important thing of any story is not to glorify evil. Every writer is trying to get a point across… just don’t let your point be an immoral one.

 

[RenaissanceMare]

I was afraid when I first clicked to send this thread I was going to end up getting replies that would upset me and maybe disrupt my writing, but I’m glad to see that I feel more inspired then ever, oddly enough.

I like to draw a straight line between good versus evil, and I always try to reflect the harm in doing evil though it feels good and the benefits of doing good even when it feels like ****. Evil is not glorified and is condemned, even when the character doing it might gain sympathy from the readers. I try to have my characters walk the correct path.

For example, in a series of short stories I wrote that I’m expanding into a novel, the female lead goes through alot of hard times. At her lowest point is when she becomes the victim of a brutal rape at the hands of her cousin and two of his friends. At first she can’t forgive anyone, even herself, but as time wears on she realizes that if she can’t forgive them she’s only holding herself back from ever healing. Though she never exactly befriends the men, she does find a way to forgive and stop posioning herself with hatred.

Similairly, though my characters are Catholic/Christian by default, her husband is a lapsed Catholic who didn’t lead the best of lives before he met her. When he becomes involved with her early on in the stories, he learns the true value of marriage and manogamus realtionships. And when she nearly dies after the attack mentioned above, he finds his faith once again. He never becomes a perfect Catholic, but he finds himself praying again for the first time in years. For strength to help his wife and for strength not to seek revenge on her attackers.

My characters are human and they do sin, swear, have sex (the vast majority of my stories take place in the present and often involve secondary romantic plot lines, and since umarried sex is so popular now, it does happen.) But I try to keep myself within a few paramaters, similar to EdWest and his yardstick.

My rules: No atheist characters, and if there is a supporting character that is an atheist, either they find faith in the course of the story or are shown for the bitter, empty people they are. I don’t write homosexual relationships in a glorified manner. Unless pivotal to plot, sex is always between a couple who are in love and committed, and even then I don’t have many sex scenes. No blasphemy in the language, even if I have a few characters that drop the f-bomb like there’s no tomorrow. And I never speak negatively of Christianity/Catholicism/Jesus, unless it’s a side character who either sees the error of their ways or is quickly rebutted down by someone with faith.

I’m kinda sleepy, so I hope that all made sense. I know in my heart talent comes from God, and while I want to leave myself open to writing from all genres, not just Christian, I do hope to use this gift in a way that is beneficial and good.

 

[paradoxy]

You’re TOO good. Not every character has to be a Christian. Not every atheist has to be censored. If you are too scrupulous to be honest, your art will lose its power to convert hearts.

Think Shakespeare…

Don’t worry about the morality of your plots - those seem more than acceptable. Worry about this: if you share your plots with all the people here, no one will want to read your stuff after all the spoilers!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

“Think Shakespeare” is great advice. The moral complexity of his great plays is really where its at, in my book. Even Macbeth, who’s such a villain, is never charicatured. His play demonstrates the nightmare of history(nightmare is particularly apt: no scene in the play is set during the day, and insomnia is a recurring theme)–the mechanism of conquest, rising and falling, which characterizes the progress of the world: it’s a machine greased in blood; history is the record merely of who kills and who is killed. Macbeth awakens to these political realities in the most horrific way: his dream becomes the quest to commit the one murder that will end the cycle of murders and give him peace. But it’s impossible. He’s cast his lot in with the machine and, despite himself, must suffer the consequences. Shakespeare can make even the monstrous sympathetic. In the end, we recognize with that Aristotelian fear and pity that Macbeth is human just like us, and we are human just like him.

I’m a writer as well, and I don’t often struggle with this question. Friends of mine who know my work and know I’m a Christian sometimes ask how I reconcile my work with my faith–but it’s a question that’s become easier to answer, even as some of my work has become darker and darker. Here are some of my guiding principles:

1–It is inappropriate to expect a work of art to be morally didactic or to teach a lesson. It is the job of the teacher, the priest, the parent, to teach.

2–A work of art is a love letter to a world that could care less, the work of art is therefore characterized by the pain of the unrequited or rejected lover. The object of the artist’s love is the world, by which I mean the totality of human existence and its interaction with the universe in which he lives. That comprehends the heights of inspiration and the depths of human depravity. A vision of human experience which does not include both is a vision of a humanity which does not exist. We cannot, therefore, be selective in our love–love demands all or nothing.

3–A writer should not judge his/her characters. A writer should seek to love his/her characters, even those which are most unloveable. Not simply with agape love, but with eros. It is not an attitude of condescension. It is an attitude of being in love.

4–We don’t seek to explain the world: we can seek to understand it, but at all costs we should seek to struggle well with it. Our position should be that of Jacob wrestling with the angel.

5–Beauty is not always pleasant. Often, in fact, it is painful.

6–The metaphor of the wound is a powerful thing–the breaking of the closed system, letting what is outside in. For the most part, this involves suffering.

7–Mark Rothko writes that a work of art must deal “with the knowledge of death.” Humanity is fallen, subject to evil, sin, and death–in Simone Weil’s reckoning, we have subjected ourselves to gravity as opposed to grace. A work of art, if it is to be true, will have both gravity and grace. Both are forces under which humanity suffers–the one is the suffering of misery and despair, the other is the suffering of growth and hope, which is the yearning for the p(name removed by moderator)rick of light in the darkness. And that yearning must be pursued, even if it appears to be fruitless or endless. As Edward Bond wrote (and I paraphrase considerably), hope is learning to clutch at straws.

8–It is our job to make the light bright brighter. Or to make the darkness shine.

I could go on and on. But these are some of my aesthetic principles, and I don’t find that any of them contradict my faith, even though my work can sometimes be bleak and has been called “unrelenting.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[paradoxy]

Grace & Peace!

“Think Shakespeare” is great advice. The moral complexity of his great plays is really where its at, in my book. Even Macbeth, who’s such a villain, is never charicatured. His play demonstrates the nightmare of history(nightmare is particularly apt: no scene in the play is set during the day, and insomnia is a recurring theme)–the mechanism of conquest, rising and falling, which characterizes the progress of the world: it’s a machine greased in blood; history is the record merely of who kills and who is killed. Macbeth awakens to these political realities in the most horrific way: his dream becomes the quest to commit the one murder that will end the cycle of murders and give him peace. But it’s impossible. He’s cast his lot in with the machine and, despite himself, must suffer the consequences. Shakespeare can make even the monstrous sympathetic. In the end, we recognize with that Aristotelian fear and pity that Macbeth is human just like us, and we are human just like him.

I’m a writer as well, and I don’t often struggle with this question. Friends of mine who know my work and know I’m a Christian sometimes ask how I reconcile my work with my faith–but it’s a question that’s become easier to answer, even as some of my work has become darker and darker. Here are some of my guiding principles:

1–It is inappropriate to expect a work of art to be morally didactic or to teach a lesson. It is the job of the teacher, the priest, the parent, to teach.

2–A work of art is a love letter to a world that could care less, the work of art is therefore characterized by the pain of the unrequited or rejected lover. The object of the artist’s love is the world, by which I mean the totality of human existence and its interaction with the universe in which he lives. That comprehends the heights of inspiration and the depths of human depravity. A vision of human experience which does not include both is a vision of a humanity which does not exist. We cannot, therefore, be selective in our love–love demands all or nothing.

3–A writer should not judge his/her characters. A writer should seek to love his/her characters, even those which are most unloveable. Not simply with agape love, but with eros. It is not an attitude of condescension. It is an attitude of being in love.

4–We don’t seek to explain the world: we can seek to understand it, but at all costs we should seek to struggle well with it. Our position should be that of Jacob wrestling with the angel.

5–Beauty is not always pleasant. Often, in fact, it is painful.

6–The metaphor of the wound is a powerful thing–the breaking of the closed system, letting what is outside in. For the most part, this involves suffering.

7–Mark Rothko writes that a work of art must deal “with the knowledge of death.” Humanity is fallen, subject to evil, sin, and death–in Simone Weil’s reckoning, we have subjected ourselves to gravity as opposed to grace. A work of art, if it is to be true, will have both gravity and grace. Both are forces under which humanity suffers–the one is the suffering of misery and despair, the other is the suffering of growth and hope, which is the yearning for the p(name removed by moderator)rick of light in the darkness. And that yearning must be pursued, even if it appears to be fruitless or endless. As Edward Bond wrote (and I paraphrase considerably), hope is learning to clutch at straws.

8–It is our job to make the light bright brighter. Or to make the darkness shine.

I could go on and on. But these are some of my aesthetic principles, and I don’t find that any of them contradict my faith, even though my work can sometimes be bleak and has been called “unrelenting.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

Amen.

 

[RenaissanceMare]

Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic!

 

[Contarini]

Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic!

As I did on the “Popular Media” forum, I’d like to recommend Flannery O’Connor’s essays in *Mystery and Manners. *She addresses the issues you are raising.

Edwin

 

[Viki59]

. Unless pivotal to plot, sex is always between a couple who are in love and committed, and even then I don’t have many sex scenes. No blasphemy in the language, even if I have a few characters that drop the f-bomb like there’s no tomorrow. .

I love Deo Volente’s comments.

Speaking of sex scenes, I never could understand the attraction. I don’t want to read about people’s bedroom activities any more than I want to read about their bathroom ones. Let’s move on to the plot development.

As for swearing, I much prefer writers that say,“He swore softly to himself,” rather than forcing me to read whatever he said.
Older authors were better at this than current ones.
Good luck with your work.

 

[paradoxy]

I love Deo Volente’s comments.

Speaking of sex scenes, I never could understand the attraction. I don’t want to read about people’s bedroom activities any more than I want to read about their bathroom ones. Let’s move on to the plot development.

As for swearing, I much prefer writers that say,“He swore softly to himself,” rather than forcing me to read whatever he said.
Older authors were better at this than current ones.
Good luck with your work.

I feel the same way. You’re a woman too, right?

 

[Almeria]

My first novel had Catholic main characters, and it was part of the plotline to have a Catholic relationship.

My current work-in-progress doesn’t have Catholic main characters, but they are going to be as close to Catholic as I can have in a fantasy book. There is still conflict and bad guys, as it’s a murder mystery.

A future novel that I have almost to outline stage is heavily Catholic, with some fantasy worked in (demon slaying, basically).

My faith is such an integral part of me that I have a hard time making my main character not have similar beliefs to myself. It’s not that I’m writing Mary Sue’s, but I have a hard time writing from a non-faith filled viewpoint. My first novel is dramatically short on conflict because I simply didn’t want bad things happening in it (which is why it’s under the bed, and not publishable). I’m doing much better in my current work to have a lot of believable faults in my main character, yet still have her choose good over evil.

I don’t see myself ever writing a sex scene, either. There’s still a market for commercial and fantasy fiction that doesn’t have sex, and I hope I can get published in that market.