Morality in writing stories

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I’m interested in the genre of fantasy (though I’m not much into the Tolkiennesque style of elves, magic, etc.) and want to try to write some; maybe eventually attempt publishing, but that’s a long way off. I’ve run into some dilemmas, however. What religion do I make the different cultures of my world? How do I maintain a distinct line between good and evil (seems to be a principle I’ve heard before in critiquing a story’s morality)? How can promote the Church, and make sure not to somehow portray it badly?

Could anyone shine some light on morality in writing stories?
May I suggest that your characters, though in a world of fantasy, experience some of the dilemmas, joys, and pursuits that people in the real world can relate to.

Give honesty to the personalities and institutions you create.

As figures and events interweave morality is going to be revealed.

The role of the Roman Catholic Church will speak for itself, given Its involvement as you determine. No need to protect It from being portrayed badly, if It is portrayed accurately.

But, if you contrive good is good and bad is bad, rather than explore each nuance of each, your readers are going to be disappointed by the lack of realism, in your world of fantasy.

Remember, only God is good. 🙂

👍
 
😃 Allow me to explain…
Certainly! You seem to know your stuff, write reasonably well and display a pretty good vocabulary.
I have no doubt you know what you are talking about. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here! 😃
Spencer’s “Faery Queen” is a lugubrious allegory, with such a detailed list of what-stands-for-what that it is hardly a stand-alone piece of literature (which is why it is overburdened with all of those timelines and explanations which the reader is expected to already know in order to enjoy the piece as intended).
Spencer was supposedly writing to gain favour at Court. He was also a troubled young man in many ways. Can’t say I’ve ever been a great fan of his. I read Faery Queen a long time ago, mainly as a challenge. It made me feel sorry for him!! 😃
This is what Tolkien identified as the problem with allegory (or at least *his *problem with allegory). Tolkien spoke about the difference between **allegory **and **applicability **in the forward to the LotR’s. He said that with *allegory *the understanding of the story rests in the hands of the author, whereas with *applicability *the understanding of the story rests in the hands of the reader. With allegory, every thing is symbolic of something else. With applicability, you can have a series of events (or ideas, characters) which may be applicable to real life counterparts, and yet the story stands alone and is itself, not a running symbolic commentary (allegory).
Hence my question about the hiding of the allegory and of how that will effect the reader’s comprehension, recognition even, of the allegorical within the story. Take Lewis’s Narnia Chronicles. Mention that they are allegories referencing the seven deadly sins and in this and age you get blank stares!
So, when the OP speaks of weaving morality through a tale, my first thought is OK, but will your audience recognise what it is you are doing? The likes of Hardy and Hugo make it reasonably easy to spot, without spelling it out. Tolkein did the same, although TLotR’s was just a good v evil story when it was all boioled down. Everyone got it! I haven’t read Tokein’s forward, or if I did I can’t remember a thing about it, so intuitively wha you say he wrote seems to me to be back to front, or perhaps that there shouldn’t be any difference between applicability and allegory. Would, for instance, Animal Farm have any allegorical relevance (applicability?)to today’s youth?
The reason I suggested to write an allegory and disguise it is a personal joke for me, because it seems obvious (to many, not just me) that much of LotR’s is allegorical, and yet Tolkien rejected that description, because he didn’t want to be forcing his views and interpretations down his reader’s throats, which is what blatant allegory does/can do.
I wasn’t aware of Tolkein’s rejection. Interesting.
All I’ve been talking about this *entire time *is “writing from the heart.” I just didn’t say it, because it’s a **cliche **and meaningless thing to say. All good writers must avoid cliches whenever possible: see George Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language.”
With regard to connecting to an audience’s feelings, as I said earlier, no one can predict that. Writing is, like most things, a trial and fail endeavor.
I think it isn’t as cliched as you might think. I say that because in this day and age so many authors very obviously write with things like film rights in mind and/or they are trying to achieve something which is really outside their knowledge and experience and therefore, i ask, how can they put their heart and soul into it. With reference back to the OP, if you want to really, really make a point, what’s inside you will be what allows you to deliver the goods and that firm internal belief and conviction is more important than trying to foce yourself to adopt a particular literary style. That’s where I’ll give Spencer credit - he was a ‘feeling’ person and his own turmoils delivered the goods.
 
On the subjefct of Allegory, isn’t the novel “Lord of The Flies” a wonderful example?!

For anyone wanting to see how allegory is used to examine morality, this is the one to read.

It should be compulsory in all teenage English and English Lit classes. :rolleyes:
 
First of all, I edit all sorts of work by all sorts of people (most of it fiction).

Look at Hollywood, they still do not have the formula for writing a hit or a flop. And regardless of how modern we think we are, the same sins being committed 2,000 years ago are still being committed today. The basic human being has not changed. And basic morality has not changed; i.e. The Ten Commandments. What has changed in the last 40 years is that too many believe there is no truth except what suits them.

Just have your characters act on Christian principles and have those that don’t. It doesn’t matter what place or time period you put them in.

Peace,
Ed
 
…Hence my question about the hiding of the allegory and of how that will effect the reader’s comprehension, recognition even, of the allegorical within the story. Take Lewis’s Narnia Chronicles. Mention that they are allegories referencing the seven deadly sins and in this and age you get blank stares!.
It’s not the author’s responsiblity to promulgate the meaning of their allegory, it’s their *critics *responsibility to suggest the allegory, and then it’s the author’s job to wink non-committally, and then deny it. 🙂
So, when the OP speaks of weaving morality through a tale, my first thought is OK, but will your audience recognise what it is you are doing? The likes of Hardy and Hugo make it reasonably easy to spot, without spelling it out. Tolkein did the same, although TLotR’s was just a good v evil story when it was all boioled down. Everyone got it! I haven’t read Tokein’s forward, or if I did I can’t remember a thing about it, so intuitively wha you say he wrote seems to me to be back to front, or perhaps that there shouldn’t be any difference between applicability and allegory. Would, for instance, Animal Farm have any allegorical relevance (applicability?)to today’s youth?.
As I tried to say earlier, there are any number of ways to begin writing, but with reference to “weaving morality through a tale” that should happen organically; otherwise, it will tend to seem forced. Once you put two people in a room, the morality of their relationship will become apparent. Two men, two women, or a man and a woman are the only options (unless there are aliens, et. al. :)). They react to each other, passively or aggressively, outwardly or inwardly, dialogue or non-verbal communication (as *painstakingly *described by the author), etc. Tensions arise immediately, implications arise, possibilities, predictions/expectations of what may or may not happen, etc. Those people live in a world, whether it’s a fantasy world or Earth, the paradigms are essentially the same, as edwest2 suggests. The outward conflicts of the world become the inward conflicts for both the protagonists and antagonists alike.

The reader should not be made to have to predict whether these actions are allegorical or not. The actions should be as genuine as the author can portray them, but those actions will always be applicable to other scenarios and may actually ring true for the reader, which will then hold the reader’s attention (one hopes). This is the “heroic faith” of the author–to trust that a reader will care enough about their narrative to plunge into it headlong, and think about the relationships/occurances et. al. in the story, and make connections of their own.

It is not the job of the author to spell everything out, because a reader (a clever one at any rate) will feel cheated. Where’s the challenge? (with Spencer, of course, the challenge is remembering what stands for what, which is the author forcing an interpretation) I think one of the things that keeps the LotR’s alive is that despite the fact that it is, overall, a good vs. evil story, it has so much depth one can read it over and over again and take something new away from it every time. Reading an allegory is like going to a restaurant and there’s only one thing on the menu. Why go back? (unless you *really *like eating that one thing over and over again).
I wasn’t aware of Tolkein’s rejection. Interesting.
He says it in the forward of the Fellowship of the Ring.
I think it isn’t as cliched as you might think. .
What I meant was the Orwellian definition of cliche. The idea of “writing from the heart” is alive and well; the phrase “writing from the heart” has been said so many times that it has become meaningless.

Orwell said the danger of cliches and “stock phrases” is that they “think your thoughts for you.” Most any phrase in the English language that references the heart is likely to be a stock phrase: “What does your heart tell you?” “Write from the heart.” “Trust your heart.” They sound pretty which is what made them become cliches in the first place, and their overuse has stripped them of the power they once might have had. According to Orwell, a writer has to avoid using anything that they’ve ever seen in print. :eek: That’s a hard task. I remember that being one of the criticisms leveled against Rowling, that much of her language was cliched, though she inadvertantly became the champion of creating new adverbs. 🙂

Say you’re writing a piece and you come to a part where it feels right to use “he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” No! You can’t. You have to make up your own metaphor, because creating a new metaphor “assists thought,” as Orwell said. **This is what writing from the heart actually means–coming up with your own words and images, not borrowing from the cliche pool–inventing something as new as you can make it, something from your own heart and not someone else’s heart by using their images and phrases instead of crafting your own.

edwest2–uh, I’ve got a novel. 🙂 Help a brother out?
 
I’ll admit that sometimes it can be attractive to a reader to learn that a piece was meant to be an allegory for something. Sam Beckett’s “Endgame” I believe was written based on an actual chess game. For someone to have read the Narnia Chronicles to learn that each is based on one of the seven deadly sins might make them return to take another look, perhaps to purchase the “boxed set.” 😃 Usually the “outting” of a piece ("You know, it’s *really an allegory *about…) would happen after its been circulated for a while. If you can’t get enough readers to like it the first time around, they won’t care what it’s *really *about.
 
It’s not the author’s responsiblity to promulgate the meaning of their allegory, it’s their *critics *responsibility to suggest the allegory, and then it’s the author’s job to wink non-committally, and then deny it. 🙂

As I tried to say earlier, there are any number of ways to begin writing, but with reference to “weaving morality through a tale” that should happen organically; otherwise, it will tend to seem forced. Once you put two people in a room, the morality of their relationship will become apparent. Two men, two women, or a man and a woman are the only options (unless there are aliens, et. al. :)). They react to each other, passively or aggressively, outwardly or inwardly, dialogue or non-verbal communication (as *painstakingly *described by the author), etc. Tensions arise immediately, implications arise, possibilities, predictions/expectations of what may or may not happen, etc. Those people live in a world, whether it’s a fantasy world or Earth, the paradigms are essentially the same, as edwest2 suggests. The outward conflicts of the world become the inward conflicts for both the protagonists and antagonists alike.

The reader should not be made to have to predict whether these actions are allegorical or not. The actions should be as genuine as the author can portray them, but those actions will always be applicable to other scenarios and may actually ring true for the reader, which will then hold the reader’s attention (one hopes). This is the “heroic faith” of the author–to trust that a reader will care enough about their narrative to plunge into it headlong, and think about the relationships/occurances et. al. in the story, and make connections of their own.

It is not the job of the author to spell everything out, because a reader (a clever one at any rate) will feel cheated. Where’s the challenge? (with Spencer, of course, the challenge is remembering what stands for what, which is the author forcing an interpretation) I think one of the things that keeps the LotR’s alive is that despite the fact that it is, overall, a good vs. evil story, it has so much depth one can read it over and over again and take something new away from it every time. Reading an allegory is like going to a restaurant and there’s only one thing on the menu. Why go back? (unless you *really *like eating that one thing over and over again).

He says it in the forward of the Fellowship of the Ring.

What I meant was the Orwellian definition of cliche. The idea of “writing from the heart” is alive and well; the phrase “writing from the heart” has been said so many times that it has become meaningless.

Orwell said the danger of cliches and “stock phrases” is that they “think your thoughts for you.” Most any phrase in the English language that references the heart is likely to be a stock phrase: “What does your heart tell you?” “Write from the heart.” “Trust your heart.” They sound pretty which is what made them become cliches in the first place, and their overuse has stripped them of the power they once might have had. According to Orwell, a writer has to avoid using anything that they’ve ever seen in print. :eek: That’s a hard task. I remember that being one of the criticisms leveled against Rowling, that much of her language was cliched, though she inadvertantly became the champion of creating new adverbs. 🙂

Say you’re writing a piece and you come to a part where it feels right to use “he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” No! You can’t. You have to make up your own metaphor, because creating a new metaphor “assists thought,” as Orwell said. **This is what writing from the heart actually means–coming up with *your own ***words and images, not borrowing from the cliche pool–inventing something as new as you can make it, something from your own heart and not someone else’s heart by using their images and phrases instead of crafting your own.

edwest2–uh, I’ve got a novel. 🙂 Help a brother out?
What kind of help are you looking for?

Peace,
Ed
 
What kind of help are you looking for?

Peace,
Ed
I was going to PM you but I imagine that any replies might be useful to onlookers.

I’ve been researching this on and off for a couple of years now. I’ve had a number of poems published in small lit journals (some national ones), and with regard to publishing a book of poetry, I know that university and small presses are the only ways to go. Now that I’ve actually got a workable fiction manuscript, in the sci-fi/fantasy genre, I’m finding it difficult to know where to go, especially being that it is also identifiably a “religious work.”

I’ve read that publishers came up with the term “speculative fiction” to hide the sci-fi/fantasy label which is difficult to market (I assume because the field is glutted with manuscripts by Rowling wannabes. I, myself, am a Tolkien wannabe, but my work would never be confused with his, I’m pretty sure). What led me to this thread is that I’ve been working on the type of book that the OP describes.

So some basic questions I’ve had are:
  • Do you know of any listing for agents in the religio-mythological-sci-fi/fantasy genre? I’ve been through the AWP lists and haven’t found any (not that it would be listed as such). I’m both attracted to and leary of publishers that encourage unsolicited submissions.
  • I was tempted to do self-publishing, but I’m also hoping that my book could help me get back into teaching, and for most creative writing jobs a book has to be published by a “press of standing.” I really want to have the manuscript pass some professional scrutiny rather than just flinging it out there into the void and hoping that something bounces back.
  • I can’t get into the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) because my publications are for poetry, and my novel isn’t exactly condusive to exerpting, and they require publication in one the accepted fantasy sci-fi journals. Do you know of any journals/mags that do religio-mytho-sci-fi-fantasy? Do you work for one?
  • I found the listing for Royd Tolkien (grandson of JRR) and he’s a lit agent in England, and I thought of querying him but their website says they’re not accepting new work currently. Should I just brazenly query him anyway? As a poet I’ve never had to worry about agents before.
 
Without actually knowing what is contained in your novel, you may try:

stuartmarket.com/default.aspx

Agents are generally in touch with publishers who are looking for particular types of material. An agent - a good agent - is one who has a good eye for (A) what is marketable to the public, and (B) what one (or more) of his clients might find interesting enough to publish. However, agents can like your manuscript but then ask you to change this or delete that so that it is more in line with what the buyer/publisher/public would prefer.

The market is not flooded by Rowling wannabees. The greatest growth in publishing today is with small and independent presses. There are several reasons for this which I’d be glad to expand on if you wish.

Or you may even look here:

amazon.com/2012-Writers-Market-Robert-Brewer/dp/1599632268

Your local library, or university library, may have a copy.

And you could contact Royd Tolkien and ask him for a referral.

Peace,
Ed
 
Without actually knowing what is contained in your novel, you may try:

stuartmarket.com/default.aspx

Agents are generally in touch with publishers who are looking for particular types of material. An agent - a good agent - is one who has a good eye for (A) what is marketable to the public, and (B) what one (or more) of his clients might find interesting enough to publish. However, agents can like your manuscript but then ask you to change this or delete that so that it is more in line with what the buyer/publisher/public would prefer.
That was what I was trying to suggest earlier in this thread, that we as writers have no idea if what we’re writing will ever find an audience. Going through the AWP list yeilded barely any agents interested in fantasy/sci-fi. I may or may not have wasted four years drafting something that just might be unsellable (which is why, McatholicN, you just need to start drafting something and engage the writing process, with a healthy pool of willing readers–your friends). I wouldn’t be opposed to a collaborative effort with an agent/editor. I was actually surprised to learn that sometimes novels can have a 70/30 or even a 60/40 split between author content and editor contributions (unlike Sarah Palin’s books which are 10/90 :D). I once read somewhere that editors are the “unsung heroes” of publishing (an editor had written the piece–I think it was the foreward to a book on the history of poetry–I should check).
The market is not flooded by Rowling wannabees. The greatest growth in publishing today is with small and independent presses. There are several reasons for this which I’d be glad to expand on if you wish.
If you had time, I would love it. The only reason I mentioned Rowling wannabees was this site called Smashwords: smashwords.com/ Everyone and anyone can upload a novel or anything to be sold here, and a perusal of their fantasy sections was actually quite horrifying. :eek: So, so many grammar errors and typos. So, so much cheese and wands, cheese and wands.
Or you may even look here:

amazon.com/2012-Writers-Market-Robert-Brewer/dp/1599632268

Your local library, or university library, may have a copy.
I used to get those when I was actively submitting my poems. I did get a handle on poetry publishing through Writer’s Market only to find that new poetry is rarely published without having won a competition. I only submit my poetry mss to “Open reading periods,” and have yet to find a novel publisher that offers the same. Ace books, a subsidiary of Penguin, allows for on-line submission, but again, I fear submitting anything (least of all this thing I’ve toiled over for years) without having an agent to consult (and even many publishers that say they accept fantasy sci-fi often expressly say they don’t consider religious works. Religious publishers often don’t want sci-fi fantasy which leaves me and McatholicN in a heap of trouble).
And you could contact Royd Tolkien and ask him for a referral.
If you think so, I will. I was afraid to attempt it, as sometimes having “initiative” also puts you at the top of the pile of “do not contact.”

McatholicN: are you getting all of this? I just perused some of your other posts, and it seems you are in high school. Don’t panic. 🙂
 
First of all, be optimistic. As to independent publishing, here are the problems:
  1. Writers who believe that if one word is changed in their manuscript, it’s ruined.
  2. Those who don’t have the money for a large press run, so they get 5-10 copies printed by a POD printer/publisher.
  3. Those who think editors are no longer necessary and/or are there to take away their creative freedom.
  4. Those who believe that simply by publishing their book on paper or for the Kindle, it virtually guarantees their success.
All of this leads to problems:

The purpose of an editor is to help the beginning author to polish his work, to point out flaws and suggest solutions. In my own experience, however, some inexperienced writers don’t understand me when I say the pacing is off or the tone is wrong. Agents can often act in a similar capacity. However, many don’t know how to change the tone or pacing without a relatively long list of examples.

A lack of proper mentorship is occurring. Too many publish thinking that “I’ll be discovered” or that because family and friends liked their book, it’s just ready to go. An experienced editor or agent can be that helpful bridge between writing a book that reads well and one that doesn’t.

I work with one simple rule: If you haven’t caught my interest in the first 4 pages, it really doesn’t matter what’s on the next 300. Oh sure, people can bring up exceptions, but I’d still compare it to say, listening to music: if the first song doesn’t grab you, are you likely to listen to the rest of the album?

Are there any examples of books out there that are similar to your own? Who published them? An optimistic approach cannot be overstated. Just looking at the negatives will not get you from point A to point B.

Before the internet, you could just take your book to a printer and have it published, complete with bad grammar, punctuation and story structure. That’s what’s happening today – the only difference being you can do it for a lot less money.

If your goal is to write a novel with a moral tone, you may need to do more research and make yourself a list of “possible” places to get an answer. You are on the internet after all.

Here’s one more idea: blog.catholicwritersguild.com/

Peace,
Ed
 
Being oblivious to one’s own time is one kind of danger for a poet…But being too aware
of the abstract historical and cultural forces that are at work in one’s own time, convincing
one’s self that one actually sees them, is another.
—Christian Wiman
“Fugitive Pieces”
Poetry, May 2001


Christian Wiman is the current editor of Poetry. This statement is applicable to all writers in all disciplines. It is always best to introduce readers to a character that they like. Things will start happening to this character (rise of the antagonist) which is called conflict. **Morality will/should flow *organically ***from this conflict, otherwise you absolutely do run the danger of being preachy. You cannot predict what will strike a chord with readers. You cannot predict that what *you *want to explore will be what a larger readership wants to explore with you.

An argument without refutation of opposition is called a television commercial.
A story without a believable challenge (conflict) is called the works of Dan Brown. 😃

So…just write some stuff. I think Flannery O’Connor said something about a story is a piece of writing in which something happens.
So, right here on CAF, in three minutes, I cobbled together an alegorical response on a thread.

In the interests of “science” I give you a link so you can read it right here

Not one person has responded as at the time of writing this. Obviously it went right over their heads!! 😃

I’ll go ‘guinea pig’.

Any expert comments?

Am willing to discuss publishing rights! :rolleyes:
 
So, right here on CAF, in three minutes, I cobbled together an alegorical response on a thread.

In the interests of “science” I give you a link so you can read it right here

Not one person has responded as at the time of writing this. Obviously it went right over their heads!! 😃

I’ll go ‘guinea pig’.

Any expert comments?

Am willing to discuss publishing rights! :rolleyes:
I felt compelled to throw an analogy of mine in there. 😃

John, as an allegory, what you’ve written would need to be developed a little if it were to stand on its own. The reason I say this is, when you say Dear Leader would dump buckets of water on the bad people’s heads, to a Chritian/Catholic the image of baptism arises. Therefore, your analogy as worded, has to depend on an exclusively Christian audience, and thus would not be understood by other audiences. I’m just saying that if you were going to develop a lengthier allegory (more developed) then Dear Leader must make a promise to his people about the virtues of pooring the water on their heads. You didn’t set that up clearly, obviously because you’re on CAF and knew it would be readily understood.

I have a habit of unintentionally discouraging people from writing. 😊 You understand what I mean, right? Some allegories can present themselves so forcefully that thing they represent and thing portrayed in the story are so close that there is hardly any seperation. A veil must be set in place, one that doesn’t let the light shine through. 😉
 
I felt compelled to throw an analogy of mine in there. 😃

John, as an allegory, what you’ve written would need to be developed a little if it were to stand on its own. The reason I say this is, when you say Dear Leader would dump buckets of water on the bad people’s heads, to a Chritian/Catholic the image of baptism arises. Therefore, your analogy as worded, has to depend on an exclusively Christian audience, and thus would not be understood by other audiences. I’m just saying that if you were going to develop a lengthier allegory (more developed) then Dear Leader must make a promise to his people about the virtues of pooring the water on their heads. You didn’t set that up clearly, obviously because you’re on CAF and knew it would be readily understood.

I have a habit of unintentionally discouraging people from writing. 😊 You understand what I mean, right? Some allegories can present themselves so forcefully that thing they represent and thing portrayed in the story are so close that there is hardly any seperation. A veil must be set in place, one that doesn’t let the light shine through. 😉
You’re right of course. I was deeply troubled by the bucket dumping scene as I continued to write. I perhaps should have added in that the water being dumped, out of buckets and onto the heads of the gulag prisoners, was to wash away the grime that had accumulated during their confinement. Perhaps as part of Dear leader’s passing out arrangements. They didn’t get it anyway! It needs to be “cat and dog; cat and dog”, or, alas, they wont even read it. 🤷
 
You’re right of course. I was deeply troubled by the bucket dumping scene as I continued to write. I perhaps should have added in that the water being dumped, out of buckets and onto the heads of the gulag prisoners, was to wash away the grime that had accumulated during their confinement. Perhaps as part of Dear leader’s passing out arrangements. They didn’t get it anyway! It needs to be “cat and dog; cat and dog”, or, alas, they wont even read it. 🤷
I know what you mean about the “cat and dog” sequence on CAF. I’ve butted in on arguments that went ignored only to be rebutted months later.

Short allegories (like yours, or “Allegory of the Cave”) tend to have trouble being stand-alone pieces, partly due to their brevity. Tolkien said that one way to avoid allegory is to create a *history *for characters (which was what he did). That provides a depth which is lacking in simple allegory.
 
I saw it mentioned earlier, but Stephen King’s On Writing is a must; no matter what your personal stance on his fiction, he knows what he’s talking about and will teach you the proper hatred for adverbs. I read it every year or two to brush up, and then am invigorated to tackle my own writing afresh.

Also, I would suggest letting the story develop itself, and don’t choke it with a moral. Instead of an Aesop-style or direct allegorical style, let the moral manifest itself through the story, rather than choking the story and forcing it around a moral. That will both avoid being preachy and condescending to the reader (either they get the message from the story itself, or they don’t; if they don’t get it, they don’t want to feel like idiots because they didn’t glean your agenda).
 
OK, if it’s allegory you want, then try this thread, right here on CAF.

The Anatomy of the Bride.

The entire thread is written by one man. He is an interstate truckie in the United States.
He “sees” his religion written into the natural and man-made landscapes of the United States as he travels around. I find it all extraordinarily fascinating. It needs a whole lot of editing, but, in my opinion, what a fabulous read it would be if put into book form.

Expert opinions, anyone?
 
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