Morality of a Hysterectomy (no medical advice please!)

[Convert_in_99]

NO MEDICAL ADVICE PLEASE!!! I need answers and don’t want this thread closed!

I am simply wanting the Church’s Teachings about being Catholic and having a hysterectomy for non cancerous reasons.

Here’s my problem. My cycle long symptoms and intense pain are causing me to miss out on life. I don’t mean a little inconvenience I mean a big one. I couldn’t even go to a funeral because I am due for my monthly period and I have to lie down due to the symptoms and pain. Another important note is that we still haven’t conceived after almost three and a half years so it’s not like this would likely prevent children from coming into the world.

What is a just cause for having a hysterectomy?

Is cycle long symptoms (moderate to severe) coupled with severe pain (much of which forces me to lie down) for almost a week a just cause for having a hysterectomy?

Is possible inability to afford other treatments (such as Endo surgery which may or may not be covered) just cause?

Is inability to take other treatments (pain meds) due to other health issues just cause?

Oh and please don’t mention the PopePaul Institute. Too expensive.

Again, no medical advice just moral advice. Thank you.

 

[1ke]

From the CCC, paragraph 2297:

Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

One must have a medical reason to act. A diseased uterus is a medical reason. Only you and your doctor can jointly determine the best course of treatment. The Church has no list of when a medical treatment is “just.” That’s not the criteria. The criteria is that it is for strictly therapeutic reasons (as opposed to non-therapeutic reasons… these would be reasons that have nothing to do with curing a disease or removing a diseased organ).

What you describe seems to fall into the category of therapeutic medical treatment. Again, it’s for you and your doctor to decide.

 

[Convert_in_99]

From the CCC, paragraph 2297:

Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

One must have a medical reason to act. A diseased uterus is a medical reason. Only you and your doctor can jointly determine the best course of treatment. The Church has no list of when a medical treatment is “just.” That’s not the criteria. The criteria is that it is for strictly therapeutic reasons (as opposed to non-therapeutic reasons… these would be reasons that have nothing to do with curing a disease or removing a diseased organ).

What you describe seems to fall into the category of therapeutic medical treatment. Again, it’s for you and your doctor to decide.

Thank you for your reply 1ke.

 

[jmjconder]

NO MEDICAL ADVICE PLEASE!!! I need answers and don’t want this thread closed!

I am simply wanting the Church’s Teachings about being Catholic and having a hysterectomy for non cancerous reasons.

Here’s my problem. My cycle long symptoms and intense pain are causing me to miss out on life. I don’t mean a little inconvenience I mean a big one. I couldn’t even go to a funeral because I am due for my monthly period and I have to lie down due to the symptoms and pain. Another important note is that we still haven’t conceived after almost three and a half years so it’s not like this would likely prevent children from coming into the world.

What is a just cause for having a hysterectomy?

Is cycle long symptoms (moderate to severe) coupled with severe pain (much of which forces me to lie down) for almost a week a just cause for having a hysterectomy?

Is possible inability to afford other treatments (such as Endo surgery which may or may not be covered) just cause?

Is inability to take other treatments (pain meds) due to other health issues just cause?

Oh and please don’t mention the PopePaul Institute. Too expensive.

Again, no medical advice just moral advice. Thank you.

You indicate you are not 100% sure Endo surgery is a covered procedure under your health insurance. That would morally be a route you need to fully check out. It is a lessor procedure and one that may take care of your symtoms. Before you could morally make the choice for a hysterectomy you would have to 100% exhaust all you other medical options for seeking a solution for this condition.

On a personal note. In my late twenties I was told by the medical profession I needed a hysterectomy due to multiple stillborns misscarriages and a chronic disease. We listened to them and to this day I often wish we had not ~ though we have one beautiful child I am sorry that I did not make the choice to continue to suffer more for the potential gift of life.

May God bless your desire to seek God’s will in this difficult issue.

 

[1ke]

Before you could morally make the choice for a hysterectomy you would have to 100% exhaust all you other medical options for seeking a solution for this condition.

This is not an accurate representation of Church teaching. Her doctor may recommend one procedure over another for many reasons, and she is not obligated to “100% exhaust” all medical options before choosing the one in question. It’s a decision that she and her doctor are in the best position to make.

It is in no way morally problematic for her to choose this option of treatment.

On a personal note. In my late twenties I was told by the medical profession I needed a hysterectomy due to multiple stillborns misscarriages and a chronic disease. We listened to them and to this day I often wish we had not ~ though we have one beautiful child I am sorry that I did not make the choice to continue to suffer more for the potential gift of life.

This is a wonderful testimony to what you feel you should have done.

It has no bearing on the morality of Convert’s situation. There is NO moral issue with the treatment she proposes.

 

[Convert_in_99]

You indicate you are not 100% sure Endo surgery is a covered procedure under your health insurance. That would morally be a route you need to fully check out. It is a lessor procedure and one that may take care of your symtoms. Before you could morally make the choice for a hysterectomy you would have to 100% exhaust all you other medical options for seeking a solution for this condition.

On a personal note. In my late twenties I was told by the medical profession I needed a hysterectomy due to multiple stillborns misscarriages and a chronic disease. We listened to them and to this day I often wish we had not ~ though we have one beautiful child I am sorry that I did not make the choice to continue to suffer more for the potential gift of life.

May God bless your desire to seek God’s will in this difficult issue.

Thank you for sharing your story. This is why I have endured this terrible cross of pain for the past 16 years! I always thought new life might come from it. But so far, it hasn’t.

I should make it clear that, YES, we are going to try the Endo route first if at all financially possible (if it’s covered.) But if it’s not covered or the first Endo surgery fails (which it does in 50% of all cases) and I would need a subsequent surgeries. Or if they require two Endo surgeries (one to diagnose and one to treat…many facilities do. ) I’m likely to opt for the hysterectomy. I have many health problems already and I can’t risk multiple surgeries. This is why I am asking about the morality of a hysterectomy in my case.

 

[1ke]

Thank you for sharing your story. This is why I have endured this terrible cross of pain for the past 16 years! I always thought new life might come from it. But so far, it hasn’t.

I should make it clear that, YES, we are going to try the Endo route first if at all financially possible (if it’s covered.) But if it’s not covered or the first Endo surgery fails (which it does in 50% of all cases) and I would need a subsequent surgeries. Or if they require two Endo surgeries (one to diagnose and one to treat…many facilities do. ) I’m likely to opt for the hysterectomy. I have many health problems already and I can’t risk multiple surgeries. This is why I am asking about the morality of a hysterectomy in my case.

The question you need ask yourself is:

Is it for a medically therapeutic reason?

Medically therapeutic is a procedure that corrects a defect, treats an illness or disease, or removes diseased tissue/organs. Such a treatment may have secondary effects that are not the purpose of the treatment (such as sterility resulting from, but not the object of, the procedure)

Something that is not medically therapeutic would be something cosmetic, removal of a healthy organ, removal of an organ for the purpose of preventing pregnancy (direct sterilization), etc.

In your case, the answer to this question is “yes.”

 

[Convert_in_99]

The question you need ask yourself is:

Is it for a medically therapeutic reason?

Medically therapeutic is a procedure that corrects a defect, treats an illness or disease, or removes diseased tissue/organs. Such a treatment may have secondary effects that are not the purpose of the treatment (such as sterility resulting from, but not the object of, the procedure)

Something that is not medically therapeutic would be something cosmetic, removal of a healthy organ, removal of an organ for the purpose of preventing pregnancy (direct sterilization), etc.

In your case, the answer to this question is “yes.”

Thank you again 1ke. Your answer is very helpful and comforting. This is certainly not something I’m taking lightly.

 

[1ke]

Thank you again 1ke. Your answer is very helpful and comforting. This is certainly not something I’m taking lightly.

There is, of course, the concept of proportionality in Catholic moral teaching.

For example, one would not amputate a finger if one had a hang-nail, wart, blister, etc.

By the same token, it would not be moral to remove the reproductive organs because of the *normal *range of discomfort that comes with the cycle or convenience (i.e. “I don’t like having a period”).

You have not described anything normal, you have desccribed endometriosis, which is a *disease *of the organ. Treatment varies based on severity and details of the problem. And, as you’ve said you are consulting a doctor for the best course of treatment.

As an aside, have you investigated www.popepaulvi.com and Dr. Hilgers?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Even in the event a treatment was misdiagnosed thus a surgery was mistakenly performed and that surgery resulted in sterilization, no sin was present. The reason is the knowledge needed in advance was not present so it would be human accident, not sin. Sin requires knowledge, intent, and commitment, so accidents do not met these conditions.

 

[Zooey]

From the CCC, paragraph 2297:

Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

One must have a medical reason to act. A diseased uterus is a medical reason. Only you and your doctor can jointly determine the best course of treatment. The Church has no list of when a medical treatment is “just.” That’s not the criteria. The criteria is that it is for strictly therapeutic reasons (as opposed to non-therapeutic reasons… these would be reasons that have nothing to do with curing a disease or removing a diseased organ).

What you describe seems to fall into the category of therapeutic medical treatment. Again, it’s for you and your doctor to decide.

This sounds like sound counsel.
I am not giving medical advice, just sharing my own feelings, looking back on a life of much, much, physical suffering due to my refusal to have a hysterectomy that was recommended by several doctors…and I think you need this::console::console::console:.
Have been there. Talk with your doctor. Consult with a priest. But don’t be a stubborn mule like :blush:someone who calls herself “Zooey” around here, & refuse to have any treatment. It was dumb of me. Mind you, no 2 situations are the same. Just saying, get advice from a medical professional.
You have my prayers.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Hi, on the EWTN website, in the faith section. you could ask Judie Brown the same question. She usually will refer the question to an NFP doctor, who then gives an answer based on morality, and also questions or treatment options to ask your doctor.

She is usually very quick to answer questions. It won’t be a private answer but posted in their website.

Prayers that everything works out.:hug1:

 

[jwashu]

I’m not sure how old you are but since you haven’t had children but would like to, I would try to hold out as long as possible. Have you had a DNC recently? (I believe that is what they are called).

Why wife and I tried for years, with a couple of cleanings etc… but never got pregnant. We even tried Chlomid which was a nightmare for us and almost split us up the first time but we got pregnant the next time and… well can’t seem to stop it since. (we have 4 now).

If you still have a few years I would hold out and keep praying or if it is truly so bad that you can’t function and the Dr.s are recommending this is the only route - do it and consider adoption (please get a second medical opinion as well though).

 

[Convert_in_99]

1ke: Dr Hilgers would be a dream but is impossible for us at this time. Thanks for thinking of it though it is a great option for many persons.

Mary Gail: That sounds like a wonderful idea. I really enjoy Judy Brown’s forum on EWTN.

Zooey: Thank you so much for posting. I can relate with a lot of what you have said. I am just like you in many ways, playing the martyr all these years. All the while I am just getting worse and worse. I got your PM too, you are too kind. I’m sorry for all you’ve been through. :console:

jwashu: I am only 27. I have MANY reproductive years ahead of me probably close to 30. That being said, I can’t live the next thirty years in this cycle long pain and symptoms. I just can’t. I’ve already endured 16 years, and I’m hoping to have this all corrected by 20 years so I hopefully can for once try to live a normal life each month (best I can with my other health problems ) At this point I’m not too worried about saving my reproductive organs, I’m have a hunch they are in bad shape already. I just need some relief and I’ll take any and all I can get as long as it doesn’t go against my faith, which is why I started this thread. I have avoided ABC because it goes against my faith. To me a hysterectomy is far more moral than ABC. By the way…that’s wonderful that your wife was able to conceive four miracle babies. What a blessing.

For years the only options to me were ABC pills (so not happening, again I feel that a hysterectomy is more moral than ABC) or pain killers. So through private research and with the confirmation of one doctor I’m thinking my symptoms mimic Endometreosis (sp?) I’ve lived with this diagnoses for almost two years and have just tried to live with it to avoid surgery, as they are very difficult for me. But due to my stomach condition I am no longer allowed to take the pain medicine and have no relief. I couldn’t attend my aunt’s funeral due to pain and symptoms so I’m really starting to reconsider the Endo surgery. We still can’t get it done right now, due to many factors, but it’s at least my goal instead of just playing the martyr. Even know it is my second choice, it’s still nice to know that receiving a hysterectomy wouldn’t be sinful in my case cause it might have to be an option medically due to pain and symptoms and something not working with the Endo surgery, and I’m glad it can be.

Good news is that the Endo surgery is likely covered, I just made the call today. So when other life circumstances (like my shaky health and all) stabilize some (which might be a while) I can hopefully still follow that avenue and hopefully it will work out and I could avoid the hysterectomy in the first place.

 

[jwashu]

Actually if the Dr think ABC would work to help regulate things then you could try later that might be an option.

ABC is morally wrong when used as birth control, period.

However the drugs that also work as ABC are permissible to treat another condition.

Thus the reason for this medicine is to heal not contraception, that is a secondary effect but the primary effect is moral. Thus if the pill would help, you would not be going against the teaching of the Church to use to for your health.

Joe

 

[flyingfish]

For years the only options to me were ABC pills (so not happening, again I feel that a hysterectomy is more moral than ABC)

This is not Church teaching, the Church teaches it is moral to use the pill to treat medical conditions.

 

[Convert_in_99]

This is not Church teaching, the Church teaches it is moral to use the pill to treat medical conditions.

Yes, I realize this. I said I believe that it is more moral to have the hysterectomy. This is why: When using ABC, even for a medical reason, innocent babies still die. When you have a hysterectomy no babies are conceived therefore none die. This is why I would choose a hysterectomy over ongoing use of ABC. Hopefully though I won’t have to make that choice and everything will work out for the Endometreosis sugery, and the first time at that.

 

[CatholicSam]

This is not Church teaching, the Church teaches it is moral to use the pill to treat medical conditions.

Hmmmm. I think (and maybe someone more knowledgable on this subject can correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s only OK to use hormonal contraception for medical reasons *if *the woman taking it remainins abstinent while on that medication.

Convert, you should look into herbal remedies for menstrual pain. I won’t mention specifics here to avoid the medical advice problem, but you know what I’m talking about. I think I’d pay a couple of bucks at the nutrition store to at least give it a try and see if it helps at all, but that’s just me.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Hmmmm. I think (and maybe someone more knowledgable on this subject can correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s only OK to use hormonal contraception for medical reasons *if *the woman taking it remainins abstinent while on that medication.

Convert, you should look into herbal remedies for menstrual pain. I won’t mention specifics here to avoid the medical advice problem, but you know what I’m talking about. I think I’d pay a couple of bucks at the nutrition store to at least give it a try and see if it helps at all, but that’s just me.

This is my understanding too, that you must remain abstinent due to the deadly risk to the unborn baby. My husband and I don’t want to be abstinent for the next thirty years, sorry. Plus ABC has nasty side effects even when NOT married and sexually active. I was on them three months for this condition and it was just awful. Had no desire to touch the things ever again. :nope:

I forgot about this until you mentioned it! Must get some.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Yes, I realize this. I said I believe that it is more moral to have the hysterectomy. This is why: When using ABC, even for a medical reason, innocent babies still die. When you have a hysterectomy no babies are conceived therefore none die. This is why I would choose a hysterectomy over ongoing use of ABC. Hopefully though I won’t have to make that choice and everything will work out for the Endometreosis sugery, and the first time at that.

Hmmmm. I think (and maybe someone more knowledgable on this subject can correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s only OK to use hormonal contraception for medical reasons ***if ***the woman taking it remainins abstinent while on that medication.

Convert, you should look into herbal remedies for menstrual pain. I won’t mention specifics here to avoid the medical advice problem, but you know what I’m talking about. I think I’d pay a couple of bucks at the nutrition store to at least give it a try and see if it helps at all, but that’s just me.

This is my understanding too,** that you must remain abstinent due to the deadly risk to the unborn baby**. My husband and I don’t want to be abstinent for the next thirty years, sorry. Plus ABC has nasty side effects even when NOT married and sexually active. I was on them three months for this condition and it was just awful. Had no desire to touch the things ever again. :nope:

I forgot about this until you mentioned it! Must get some.

Not to distract the thread however I do not believe such a teaching exists. One may certainly chose to be celibate as a precaution, however the fact is no documented loss of a baby through this means, none, never, not a one. All moral is tied to intent. Therapeutic intent is not immoral. For more or a deeper understanding read on ectopic pregnancies which are much more direct in loss of life.