Morality of Biofuels

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Food prices are going up partly because cropland is being used to produce biofuels. Is it ethical to use farmland to produce a luxury like fuel when there are people who do not have enough food? Does this contravene the universal destination of goods?

It seems like with food prices rising we’re going to enter an era where every time we use a car or eat a larger-than-necessary meal we’ll be facing a tough moral decision!

(see this article for more info about rising food prices news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7276971.stm )
 
Thats why I think methanol is a better idea, it can be made from waste products.
 
There are many parishes in my area involved in advocating alternative energy as a greater good in order to add sustainability to rural agricultural economies. Ask again where the root of problem stems and it is not some farmers fault. No one is stopping burning fuel. So do we face the moral question when we eat a meal, or fill up our tank?
 
pete,

ethanol, and methanol, and solar panels and methyl esters can all be made of waste products
 
So do we face the moral question when we eat a meal, or fill up our tank?
No. This is a prudential question about which reasonable people can disagree; it is not a moral issue. Most actions have good and bad consequences; worse, most consequences are unpredictable and many are difficult if not impossible to fully comprehend even after the results have been observed.

It is not immoral to be wrong. If you disagree with someone about the best solution to a problem it is more charitable to assume that he is incorrect rather than that he is immoral.

Ender
 
Before we started using coal or oil large amounts of our cropland was dedicated to animal fodder for the horses, oxen, and mules we used for transport.

So the fuel/food question is not new. We have been just able to avoid it for a century or so.

I don’t know, but I have been told by someone whose numbers I trust that the percentage of land once given over to feed draft animals was far higher than what may be needed for bio-fuels. I’d have to check that out. Anyone out there know?

Of course we had a much lower standard of living then too…
 
Before we started using coal or oil large amounts of our cropland was dedicated to animal fodder for the horses, oxen, and mules we used for transport.

So the fuel/food question is not new. We have been just able to avoid it for a century or so.

I don’t know, but I have been told by someone whose numbers I trust that the percentage of land once given over to feed draft animals was far higher than what may be needed for bio-fuels. I’d have to check that out. Anyone out there know?

Of course we had a much lower standard of living then too…
…in most sceniors(sic) the energy consumed to make a gallon of bio-fuel is equal to or greater than the energy of that same gallon of bio-fuel. that is if one is using ag crops as the feed stock…it might not be a strectch to say acres used to feed draft animals would be far greater than the acres needed to provide enough fuel for the same acres farmed,if one was using the same acres farmed with draft animals,then use mordern farming to farm the same acres.hopefully this reads clear as mud.😃
 
Food prices are going up partly because cropland is being used to produce biofuels. Is it ethical to use farmland to produce a luxury like fuel when there are people who do not have enough food? Does this contravene the universal destination of goods?

It seems like with food prices rising we’re going to enter an era where every time we use a car or eat a larger-than-necessary meal we’ll be facing a tough moral decision!

(see this article for more info about rising food prices news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7276971.stm )
I guess I don’t see any immorality in using crops for fuel - other than it is less efficent than using dino fuel.
Of course due to supply and demand the prices of these crops will rise in response to a rise in demand. Are you saying people are starving now because we use crops for fuel and they didn’t before?
 
I guess I don’t see any immorality in using crops for fuel - other than it is less efficent than using dino fuel.
Of course due to supply and demand the prices of these crops will rise in response to a rise in demand. Are you saying people are starving now because we use crops for fuel and they didn’t before?
It’s like this:
Demand for alternative energy sources has led farmers to sow less wheat and convert land to crops such as corn, sugarcane and rapeseed, that can be turned into biofuels.

The rise comes as the UN’s World Food Programme warns that it will have to start cutting rations or feeding fewer people if it does not get more money to cope with the higher cost of food.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7264653.stm
 
I am in a unique position as I work for several companies, one of which is one of the largest farming operation in our state and another is the bio-fuels industry (ADHD boss). Let me tell you some things about farming… the federal and state governments will actually pay a person to not farm their land. This is so that we don’t drive the price of crops so low it isn’t worth farming. These aren’t any dinky checkes either… we are talking lots of money.

On the bio-fuels side, yes we use corn, soy, rapeseed, jatropha…etc… But we also use and are testing waste oils from fast food, animal fats, algae(which will add a significant amount of oxygen to the air), and alot of other products. In fact, we have a jatropha plantation in Mexico, an algae farm in Alabama, and other assets. Do you know what happens now to animal fat byproducts? After slaughter, if the processing plant can’t find a buyer… it goes to landfills. Wouldn’t you rather see our landfills saved and get fuel out of it? A cleaner fuel to boot than petro products?

New and exciting things in the field… cleaner fuels and less waste to the landfill… seems moral to me. But then, before we started the bio-fuels company, I did the initial research with our chemist to assist me.
 
…in most sceniors(sic) the energy consumed to make a gallon of bio-fuel is equal to or greater than the energy of that same gallon of bio-fuel.
I haven’t done the math but I suspect that is true for certain biofuels if not for all. Distillation is a very energy intensive process
You need a high energy density end product to make it worthwhile.

Using solar stills as a way of storing solar energy migh be an alternative but you would have to be willing to accept big inefficiencies. they don’t mater as much when you’re not burning fuel.
that is if one is using ag crops as the feed stock…it might not be a strectch to say acres used to feed draft animals would be far greater than the acres needed to provide enough fuel for the same acres farmed,if one was using the same acres farmed with draft animals,then use mordern farming to farm the same acres.hopefully this reads clear as mud.😃
What? :confused:

Well of course the acreage need to feed draft animals to provide labor for farming must be less than the total acreage than they can provide labor for. Otherwise no one would ever have used animals for farming.

my question was whether that ratio is more or less with bio-fuels.
 
Not all methods used for bio-fuel production are energy intensive. Using the right alcohol and the right process makes a huge difference. Our process does not require heating and the chemicals only raise the temp of the product up to 10 degrees. The centrifuge extracts the glycerins… and we have bio-diesel that costs more than a dollar less per gallon to produce than with the standard process.
 
I am in a unique position as I work for several companies, one of which is one of the largest farming operation in our state and another is the bio-fuels industry (ADHD boss). Let me tell you some things about farming… the federal and state governments will actually pay a person to not farm their land. This is so that we don’t drive the price of crops so low it isn’t worth farming. These aren’t any dinky checkes either… we are talking lots of money.

On the bio-fuels side, yes we use corn, soy, rapeseed, jatropha…etc… But we also use and are testing waste oils from fast food, animal fats, algae(which will add a significant amount of oxygen to the air), and alot of other products. In fact, we have a jatropha plantation in Mexico, an algae farm in Alabama, and other assets. Do you know what happens now to animal fat byproducts? After slaughter, if the processing plant can’t find a buyer… it goes to landfills. Wouldn’t you rather see our landfills saved and get fuel out of it? A cleaner fuel to boot than petro products?

New and exciting things in the field… cleaner fuels and less waste to the landfill… seems moral to me. But then, before we started the bio-fuels company, I did the initial research with our chemist to assist me.
Thank you for your knowledge about the situation. I believe we have the same situation here in Canada, where the government limits production of farm products to keep prices up. Also there have been concerns in the less devleoped world about how all the free donated grain from other countries was hurting local farmers. Until now, these things have kept me from worrying about the ethics of eating too much.

But in the near future I wonder if this is about to change. If biofuel crops become more common, the governments in north america might not have to suppress production as they do, and the farmers in the underdeveloped world might start turning to growing biofuels.

I’m asking this now because we’re in the middle of skyrocketing global food prices, as the links I posted show. Something is changing in the world food markets.

So I’m just speculating about a shift in how these things work in the near future. I hope it doesn’t change to the point where driving and eating well can only be done at the expense of someone else not having a full stomach.
 
Thats why I think methanol is a better idea, it can be made from waste products.
essentially, some of the major waste products from agricultural use of the land. perfect. yes it is immoral to divert food production for fuel, especially when we are speaking of the food of the poor vs the fuel for the rich
 
Thank you for your knowledge about the situation. I believe we have the same situation here in Canada, where the government limits production of farm products to keep prices up. Also there have been concerns in the less devleoped world about how all the free donated grain from other countries was hurting local farmers. Until now, these things have kept me from worrying about the ethics of eating too much.

But in the near future I wonder if this is about to change. If biofuel crops become more common, the governments in north america might not have to suppress production as they do, and the farmers in the underdeveloped world might start turning to growing biofuels.

I’m asking this now because we’re in the middle of skyrocketing global food prices, as the links I posted show. Something is changing in the world food markets.

So I’m just speculating about a shift in how these things work in the near future. I hope it doesn’t change to the point where driving and eating well can only be done at the expense of someone else not having a full stomach.
You are welcome! Less developed countries are being encouraged to grow jatropha which produces a non-edible oil and grows in the worst conditions. The biggest producers are Africa, India, and the smaller Asian countries in that area. If you want to see skyrocketing prices, check out jatropha and it is totally non-edible! But then so has soy and corn too… and they are edible.

Basically, almost any oil can be used to produce bio-fuels… just some are more efficient than others and some have much less byproduct. I really think one of the worst things a government can do is interfere with supply and demand of some of these commodities. It is just like when they interfere with ecology… they always screw it up.

Personally the price of fuel has raised our food transportation costs so much that a dozen eggs is now over $2 where 6 mos ago it was under a dollar… now that is impact! It is all a balance… it is not a one or the other prospect when it comes to fuel vs food. If we didn’t use any food products to make fuel, petro products go way out of control pricewise… and if we use soley bio-fuels… we would run short on food to be shipped to developing countries… It is a balance.

Part of the problem is that we want to fix things in the short term, where we need to be looking to the long term consequences. The short term fix almost always fails.

Some of our biggest successes are from finding the right oil to use with the right alcohol to produce a low cost ultra clean product. It is all about the carbon chains and how you break them apart and reassemble them into fuel.

I can tell you that agencies like the EPA hate companies like us because we don’t assume the standard methods are the best and we experiment with the chemistry and method.

Here is an example… our process uses certain oils, certain alcohols, a radically different process than the typical. Our fuel shelf life is twice that of standard bio-diesel and has about 4% byproduct to the standard 40%… so the EPA wants us to do 2 MIL in testing to prove to them that our process is safe. Safe… does not require 2MIL in testing… we do it in house and the big things they want to know… phosphorous content, shelf life, emissions… all of which we blow the standard away… yet because we aren’t standard they want our proprietary info and we don’t trust them not to give it to the big companies… this has happened with every bio company that has ever changed from the standard formula… and what do the big companies do? They supress the knowledge, steal the patents and make it illegal for you to use your own process… the big companies… Sun Oil Company(sunoco), Atlantic Richfield(Arco), British Petroleum Co. (BP), etc… are you seeing the point? The oil companies aren’t just petro oil… they own everything and they are big enough to pay the government lobbyists, and PACS off.

I am not a conspiracy theorist… this is real life.
 
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