Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[rlg94086]

But where someone HAS done this, can one morally work for that person?

It depends on what you mean. You are judging another person. If you are judging what you think they feel in their heart, you need to be very careful about that. If you are judging their actions (i.e. you’ve witnessed immoral acts in the pursuit of profit), then of course you shouldn’t work for that person. As I said in another post, I quit a job due to that…even though it was a middle manager, not the company itself.

But would your principles cause you to recommend another (competitors) ‘product’ because you knew objectively, it suited the customer better? Or would you remain silent? Which of these actions exemplifies the command to love our neighbour?

I would present my principal’s product in the best way I could, without overselling its capabilities or needlessly denegrating my competitor. That is my job. I would not make the customer’s judgment for them…that is their job. There have been cases, however, where my product could not fulfill their requirements, and I have recommended a competitor who could. That happened just last week with the company I am leaving. I referred them to my old boss who has a machine that does something our system can’t. To me, this is part of customer service…helping them fulfill their needs.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, so when the customer asks if your product is better than a competitors, and you know it is not, what do you say?

NEXT!!

Seriously - I’ve never actually been in that situation - so far in my life, nobody has ever asked me about other people’s products. I honestly don’t know what I would say - I guess it would depend on what the comparison points were. (Like, if theirs is prettier, but does the same thing, or if theirs has more features than mine, etc.)

 

[rlg94086]

So I do understand the question you seem to be asking, where are those Christians who stand against immoral behavior or practices and pay the price? Maybe we just don’t hear about them, maybe they’re too few, maybe the more important question is not “Where are they” but “Will we be counted among them?”

There are many of us, and it happens every day in some ways. There are times when the relationship I develop with a customer isn’t as “good” as a competitor, because they share a common vice (e.g. strip clubs). In those cases, I may lose business. However, this goes both ways. What do you think happens with a buyer who is a moral person and experiences a salesman who offers to take him to a strip club, makes off-color jokes, curses, etc.? Also, some of the customers who share these common vices don’t necessarily respect that salesman. If my faith were to alienate a customer (I don’t think I’ve seen that happen…although it surprises some when I discreetly make the sign of the cross and pray before my meal), then I really wouldn’t want to deal with them anyway.

BTW…just because someone shares their vices with my competitor doesn’t mean they win the business. In the end, good buyers make the best decision for their company. I recently won a large order with a company, where we lost the business to a competitor a year ago. The engineering team suspects the director who forced that decision was “influenced” in some way. The competitor’s system failed, and the customer came back to us.

 

[Magicsilence]

It depends on what you mean. You are judging another person. If you are judging what you think they feel in their heart, you need to be very careful about that. If you are judging their actions (i.e. you’ve witnessed immoral acts in the pursuit of profit), then of course you shouldn’t work for that person. As I said in another post, I quit a job due to that…even though it was a middle manager, not the company itself.

Ok, lets say he ( the boss ) had a poster on the wall that said ‘money, money, money’. He did not break ANY legal laws, but would do anything for money (strip clubs etc…) and profit maximisation.

He asks you to work in the back office, doing simple work, with no moral objections. But your work allowed him to get away and take clients to objectionable places (strip clubs).

Moral or immoral to work there?

I would present my principal’s product in the best way I could, without overselling its capabilities or needlessly denegrating my competitor. That is my job. I would not make the customer’s judgment for them…that is their job. There have been cases, however, where my product could not fulfill their requirements, and I have recommended a competitor who could. That happened just last week with the company I am leaving. I referred them to my old boss who has a machine that does something our system can’t. To me, this is part of customer service…helping them fulfill their needs.

Well, this is exactly what I feel is how it should be. Serving the customer as our neighbour. I am highly impressed!

 

[Magicsilence]

NEXT!!

Seriously - I’ve never actually been in that situation - so far in my life, nobody has ever asked me about other people’s products. I honestly don’t know what I would say - I guess it would depend on what the comparison points were. (Like, if theirs is prettier, but does the same thing, or if theirs has more features than mine, etc.)

Hmm, what about when the customer order would make 20% of your firms entire business for that year? His re-order (or not) could make or break the business? How would you react?

 

[Magicsilence]

There are many of us, and it happens every day in some ways. There are times when the relationship I develop with a customer isn’t as “good” as a competitor, because they share a common vice (e.g. strip clubs). In those cases, I may lose business. However, this goes both ways. What do you think happens with a buyer who is a moral person and experiences a salesman who offers to take him to a strip club, makes off-color jokes, curses, etc.? Also, some of the customers who share these common vices don’t necessarily respect that salesman. If my faith were to alienate a customer (I don’t think I’ve seen that happen…although it surprises some when I discreetly make the sign of the cross and pray before my meal), then I really wouldn’t want to deal with them anyway.

BTW…just because someone shares their vices with my competitor doesn’t mean they win the business. In the end, good buyers make the best decision for their company. I recently won a large order with a company, where we lost the business to a competitor a year ago. The engineering team suspects the director who forced that decision was “influenced” in some way. The competitor’s system failed, and the customer came back to us.

Well, it sounds like you have a job where you can be fully Catholic and not be penalised, and that is great!

However, in my experience, from major to minor business, putting your faith first means that sooner or later, finding somewhere else to work becomes inevitable.

This may be as a result of my location (London, U.K).

 

[seekerz]

Thankyou for this great post!

Do you have any personal practical experience on the subject matter? Or suggestions of possible job areas?

I really appreciate your insight!

In Jesus Christ,

You’re welcome.

I would say it first depends on your interests and talents. A priest said some words once that stuck with me; something to the effect that one of the ways God guides us to know His will for our lives is to place the passion for it in our hearts.

A good strategy would be to obtain an internship/part-time position with an employer in your field of interest. During that time, you may be able to see firsthand what the job entails. You would also be able to learn from the long time employees, what the job/career actually entails. Things are not always what they seem.

A good example would be an acquaintance of mine who, though her last two jobs were with church-affiliated (not Catholic) institutions, has never once actually been allocated the amount of daily responsibility she was promised on interviews - always way more. You’d think that after years of operating at a particular capacity they’d be able to more accurately predict the daily workload to prospective employees, but no - new persons are routinely promised the same, inaccurate workload and this practice isn’t just limited to one employer either.

My advice, get the inside info - the best way to know someone is to live with them and the best way to judge a field/occupation is to work in it.

May God bless you on your way.

 

[jmcrae]

Hmm, what about when the customer order would make 20% of your firms entire business for that year? His re-order (or not) could make or break the business? How would you react?

In Amway, they teach us to just let people go who want to argue with you, and move on to the customers who actually want the products, rather than waste time with people who are most likely going elsewhere, anyway.

Like I said before, I’ve never personally been in that situation.

 

[rlg94086]

Ok, lets say he ( the boss ) had a poster on the wall that said ‘money, money, money’. He did not break ANY legal laws, but would do anything for money (strip clubs etc…) and profit maximisation.

He asks you to work in the back office, doing simple work, with no moral objections. But your work allowed him to get away and take clients to objectionable places (strip clubs).

Moral or immoral to work there?

Possibly immoral. When I was discerning this particular job, I discussed it with my priest. While the business owners do occasionally take clents/principles to objectionable places, they are not running their business in an overall immoral manner. Most of the “wining/dining” is more conventional - dinner, golf, sporting events, etc.

In the past, before I took my faith seriously, I had been to objectionable places with them. I discussed this with my priest. What I did was make it very clear to them that I am not the same person I was in the past and take my faith very seriously. My priest did not seem to think that I had to hold the owners to the same moral standards as myself, although it was important to make sure that they were not dishonest, moneygrugging, etc.

Well, this is exactly what I feel is how it should be. Serving the customer as our neighbour. I am highly impressed!

 

[Magicsilence]

You’re welcome.

I would say it first depends on your interests and talents. A priest said some words once that stuck with me; something to the effect that one of the ways God guides us to know His will for our lives is to place the passion for it in our hearts.

A good strategy would be to obtain an internship/part-time position with an employer in your field of interest. During that time, you may be able to see firsthand what the job entails. You would also be able to learn from the long time employees, what the job/career actually entails. Things are not always what they seem.

A good example would be an acquaintance of mine who, though her last two jobs were with church-affiliated (not Catholic) institutions, has never once actually been allocated the amount of daily responsibility she was promised on interviews - always way more. You’d think that after years of operating at a particular capacity they’d be able to more accurately predict the daily workload to prospective employees, but no - new persons are routinely promised the same, inaccurate workload and this practice isn’t just limited to one employer either.

My advice, get the inside info - the best way to know someone is to live with them and the best way to judge a field/occupation is to work in it.

May God bless you on your way.

And what about when the sea becomes stormy? Fired and re-hired ad infinitum?

Another great post, btw!

 

[Magicsilence]

In Amway, they teach us to just let people go who want to argue with you, and move on to the customers who actually want the products, rather than waste time with people who are most likely going elsewhere, anyway.

Like I said before, I’ve never personally been in that situation.

Can you imagine though? Your boss believes you are the best person to deal with this one client who will make or break the business.

Relying on your expertise, the customer asks you if your ‘product’ will objectively perform better than all other competitor products. You know it will not. What would you say?

 

[Magicsilence]

Possibly immoral. When I was discerning this particular job, I discussed it with my priest. While the business owners do occasionally take clents/principles to objectionable places, they are not running their business in an overall immoral manner. Most of the “wining/dining” is more conventional - dinner, golf, sporting events, etc.

I know this is controversial and a little silly. But imagine that abortion was one of the activities they used on rare occasions to win clients. Would it become definitely immoral to work there?

In the past, before I took my faith seriously, I had been to objectionable places with them. I discussed this with my priest. What I did was make it very clear to them that I am not the same person I was in the past and take my faith very seriously. My priest did not seem to think that I had to hold the owners to the same moral standards as myself, although it was important to make sure that they were not dishonest, moneygrugging, etc.

So, where did your priest draw the line? At what level of immorality does it become wrong to work for someone? And perhaps, more importantly, what is the justification behind it?

 

[rlg94086]

I know this is controversial and a little silly. But imagine that abortion was one of the activities they used on rare occasions to win clients. Would it become definitely immoral to work there?

You’re right it is silly. But, let’s say they took clients to one of those fictional places where you actually hunt other human beings. Yeah…I don’t think I would work for someone like that.

Magicsilence:

So, where did your priest draw the line? At what level of immorality does it become wrong to work for someone? And perhaps, more importantly, what is the justification behind it?

You know, we didn’t get into particular lines. Our discussion occurred during a men’s retreat, right after he gave his discussion about being a Catholic fill-in-the-blank. One of my fellow parishioners did a talk earlier about what it means to be a Catholic doctor (in his case, a Family Doctor/General Practitioner). Our priest’s talk was similar, explaining how we are called to live a “eucharistic life” in our vocation. So, it was more centered on how we live our vocation. My discussion regarding my job discernment was similarly focused. One of the men did mention that they turned down business because of its link to an abortion clinic. He is the largest cement contractor in our metro area and refused to bid on the project.

As far as where I draw the line, it would be with someone who is taking advantage of customers, employees or vendors; lying to them, cheating them, etc., and/or requiring employees to do something against their beliefs. So, for example, if my boss said I had to take a client to a strip club or I would be fired, then I would either quit or be fired. If I knew or suspected they would do something like that before accepting the job, I would not go to work for them.

 

[seekerz]

And what about when the sea becomes stormy? Fired and re-hired ad infinitum?

Another great post, btw!

Happy to be of assistance…

No, it’s not a cycle of being hired and fired because you are covered under God’s protection. It may not always be smooth sailing, but He will always provide for your needs and best of all, you’ll be able to live with yourself and your conscience. Even if you cave in and compromise your values on occasion, your ultimate Boss is most forgiving - that’s why He’s so great to work for.

 

[Aramis]

NEXT!!

Seriously - I’ve never actually been in that situation - so far in my life, nobody has ever asked me about other people’s products. I honestly don’t know what I would say - I guess it would depend on what the comparison points were. (Like, if theirs is prettier, but does the same thing, or if theirs has more features than mine, etc.)

I have. When running a music store (acting manager).

I often had people come in looking, and ask for comparisons to (far higher priced than we carried) brands.

Sometimes, by pointing out the catalogue prices, they chose to buy the lesser priced instrument with the knowledge that it was a student instrument, rather than the better but higher priced name brand. (EG: come in looking for a Fender, and we carried Epiphone and Sunlight. Generally, high end fenders dust the mid-range student models we carried… but the trick to sales is to point out the differences and let the customer make an informed decision, and if they really do want or need the fender, send them to the Fender dealer.)

 

[rr1213]

Work for federal, state or local government.

Great Googlie Mooglie! He’s looking for a job that won’t offend his morals!

Yeah, I knew it would get a laugh but I’m serious. Some of the most ethical people I know work in local government. Be a public servant.

 

[anthony022071]

How so?

Initially a firm serves customers, and in doing so makes profit.

The pursuit of profit reverses the situation, where profit becomes the goal, and serving customers becomes the way in which it is done.

The focus is all wrong.

The pursuit of profit is not itself wrong,and neither is profit as a goal. It’s the person who is doing the pursuing of the profit who is potentially wrong. It is the decisions that the worker makes within the context of the career that are potentially wrong. Anyone who claims to be a Christian ought to have a very nuanced sense of judgement when he is working,and should try to avoid,as often as possible,compromising his sense of right and wrong. Being tied to a career or an economic system can lead people to smother their own consciences little by little,doing things that they would normally consider wrong if it were not for the need to keep the job,so that ultimately they self-justify their own and dubious values and behavior.
That is sometimes why people get defensive when you call into question the morality of their occupation. It’s like when veterans of war take umbrage at people who have never been to war when they point out instances of cruelty and evil behavior on the part of soldiers.
The veterans will say “Have you ever been to war? You don’t know what you’re talking about! You have no experience in war! I’ve been there!” And all the while they know darn well that the criticisms are accurate.

 

[CapaxDei]

I graduate from university in Summer 2008, and am finding it morally taxing to think about what kind of a job would be pleasing to the Lord.

Most, if not all major/minor businesses are focused on profit maximisation and therefore (at least indirectly) serving the Devil , and as an employee it would be expected that one work towards the same goal (the nature of a capitalist society rewards those that increase shareholder value with higher pay etc…).

When the very basis of potential work environments is morally bankrupt, can one really work there with a clear conscience? Where are we, as Christians, supposed to go? Self - employment? Surely it is not a universal panacea?

It seems being a Catholic and having a job that pays enough to eat and sleep somewhere are awfully incompatible in this day and age.

If anyone has any suggestions, or advice, it’d be greatly appreciated.

In Jesus Christ,

You clearly are not studying Austrian economics in college. Alas, neither did I! Try here… start with this book.

The author is “Reformed Presbyterian,” whatever that means. However, I have read his book “Success” (sorry, I can’t find the link right now, despite extensive searching), and am more than halfway through the “Economic Commentary on Proverbs” (a.k.a. “God’s Success Manual”), and I detect nothing in his economic commentary that contradicts Catholic teaching.

I highly recommend this book. A real eye-opener… and mind-opener… and soul-opener…

 

[Magicsilence]

You’re right it is silly. But, let’s say they took clients to one of those fictional places where you actually hunt other human beings. Yeah…I don’t think I would work for someone like that.

I just think the distinction is artificial. Whether someone is committing child murder with abortion, taking clients to strip clubs, or putting all their energy into getting more money, the focus and means are immoral, even if not unethical according to societies standards.

Hence, where the focus is immoral, I cannot see how it would NOT be immoral to work there.

You know, we didn’t get into particular lines. Our discussion occurred during a men’s retreat, right after he gave his discussion about being a Catholic fill-in-the-blank. One of my fellow parishioners did a talk earlier about what it means to be a Catholic doctor (in his case, a Family Doctor/General Practitioner). Our priest’s talk was similar, explaining how we are called to live a “eucharistic life” in our vocation. So, it was more centered on how we live our vocation. My discussion regarding my job discernment was similarly focused. One of the men did mention that they turned down business because of its link to an abortion clinic. He is the largest cement contractor in our metro area and refused to bid on the project.

As far as where I draw the line, it would be with someone who is taking advantage of customers, employees or vendors; lying to them, cheating them, etc., and/or requiring employees to do something against their beliefs. So, for example, if my boss said I had to take a client to a strip club or I would be fired, then I would either quit or be fired. If I knew or suspected they would do something like that before accepting the job, I would not go to work for them.

And yet, many sales jobs involve at least a small amount of customer manipulation.

Moreover, IMO, (for example) asking employees to work late just to earn the business even more profit is an example of why working there would be wrong.

 

[Magicsilence]

You’re right it is silly. But, let’s say they took clients to one of those fictional places where you actually hunt other human beings. Yeah…I don’t think I would work for someone like that.

I just think the distinction is artificial. Whether someone is committing child murder with abortion, taking clients to strip clubs, or putting all their energy into getting more money, the focus and means are immoral, even if not unethical according to societies standards.

Hence, where the focus is immoral, I cannot see how it would NOT be immoral to work there.

You know, we didn’t get into particular lines. Our discussion occurred during a men’s retreat, right after he gave his discussion about being a Catholic fill-in-the-blank. One of my fellow parishioners did a talk earlier about what it means to be a Catholic doctor (in his case, a Family Doctor/General Practitioner). Our priest’s talk was similar, explaining how we are called to live a “eucharistic life” in our vocation. So, it was more centered on how we live our vocation. My discussion regarding my job discernment was similarly focused. One of the men did mention that they turned down business because of its link to an abortion clinic. He is the largest cement contractor in our metro area and refused to bid on the project.

As far as where I draw the line, it would be with someone who is taking advantage of customers, employees or vendors; lying to them, cheating them, etc., and/or requiring employees to do something against their beliefs. So, for example, if my boss said I had to take a client to a strip club or I would be fired, then I would either quit or be fired. If I knew or suspected they would do something like that before accepting the job, I would not go to work for them.

And yet, many sales jobs involve at least a small amount of customer manipulation.

Moreover, IMO, (for example) asking employees to work late just to earn the business even more profit is an example of why working there would be wrong.