Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[jmcrae]

Not necessarily. What one customer may perceive as a defect, another may herald as a necessary component.

“Defective” in the sense of a baby harness that takes the kid’s head off if there is an accident, or lead paint in baby toys. Not minor flaws that could potentially be useful. (I’m sure you are familiar with the Ivory soap example.)

 

[rlg94086]

I do understand business, but we are clearly disagreeing on what is acceptable within sales.

I am inclined towards scrupulosity, but I don’t think this is a manifestation of it. Rather, we are disagreeing on the nature of business.

I disagree. Your scurpulosity on this issue is very, very obvious. And, I am making my assessment that you don’t understand business on your responses. I base it off of my 27 years of experience in business. You have an extremely elementary understanding of sales, so your opinion on what is “acceptable” is really of very little value to me. I’ll take my counsel from my very orthodox priest. He understands more about business ethics than you do, even though he doesn’t have a degree in it.

If a customer specifically asked you whether your product was more suited to his needs (vs a competitor), and you knew that your product would suit him fine, despite competitor offerings being better, how would you respond?

This rarely happens, as my customers are not naive enough to ask such a question. If it did occur, I would answer it honestly. However, you make it sound like it is a black/white answer.

If I fully understand the customer’s needs, then I may be able to answer it. If I fully understand all of the pros/cons of my competitors, I may be able to answer it. Those are both big “ifs.”

 

[Al_Masetti]

Still not sure what “morality of jobs” has to do with “maximizing of profits”.

For example, if companies maximize their profits, then why do companies go out of business? Why do companies declare bankruptcy?

Call up a bunch of companies and ask for copies of their annual reports and read through the descriptions of what they do and the innovations they are making to survive and thrive, and then read through the balance sheets and earnings statements. Can you tell which ones are “maximizing their profits” or which ones are engaged in immoral jobs? What should they be doing differently? [Be VERY specific.] What qualifies you to make those recommendations?

There are large companies that are privately owned. Seem to be doing well. Can you find a list of them (from Forbes annual listing, for example) and then see which ones have competition and which ones have no competition? How will you know which ones have moral jobs and which ones are immoral?

Some firms, such as companies on Wall Street pay out HUGE bonuses. Is that immoral? And yet, some companies on Wall Street fold … go away … go out of business … sell their corporate identity to a competitor. Why, if they maximize their profits, do they need to do that? Why do Wall Street firms have bad years and are forced to lay off so many people who they trained at great cost?

I am going to suggest that labelling jobs as immoral or putting a negative cast onto “maximizing of profits” does not correspond to reality.

The business world is highly dynamic … companies go up and down. Very few endure forever. No one makes perfect decisions that meet every market contingency. The railroads were very big, then they went into decline, now they are coming back.

I would suggest actually getting out there. Break the “prime directive” Never Volunteer ] and volunteer for everything. Get a lot of life experience.

It is very difficult to argue “profits” and “morality of jobs” with very little life experience.

You have to ask yourself: does the value of your daily effort contribute to keeping the company in business?

No company is perfect.

Government agencies tend to stay in business for a very long time because they are immune to the discipline of the market, so there is a whole 'nuther discussion of the morality of jobs when the primary goal is to increase the annual budget and head count.

God has a plan for each of us. It’s just that none of us know what it is. It may take 50 years to tease the plan out and figure it out. We may never figure it out.

Do the best you can.

Avoid being a “hothouse Christian” … be in the world [although not of the world]. Avoid living in your mother’s back bedroom.

Get out there.

Take flying lessons.

Become an EMT.

Learn welding.

 

[Magicsilence]

I disagree. Your scurpulosity on this issue is very, very obvious. And, I am making my assessment that you don’t understand business on your responses. I base it off of my 27 years of experience in business. You have an extremely elementary understanding of sales, so your opinion on what is “acceptable” is really of very little value to me. I’ll take my counsel from my very orthodox priest. He understands more about business ethics than you do, even though he doesn’t have a degree in it.

You are also basing your responses with regard to the financial security your current job is promising.

I will admit, however, that it could appear scrupulosity is the driving force here, given my lack of experience. Yet I will continue to maintain that no matter what job position we reside in, our duty to love God and our neighbour comes first. Within sales, perhaps moral objections tend to rise more increasingly within consumer goods, and not the field within which you operate.

This rarely happens, as my customers are not naive enough to ask such a question. If it did occur, I would answer it honestly. However, you make it sound like it is a black/white answer.

If I fully understand the customer’s needs, then I may be able to answer it. If I fully understand all of the pros/cons of my competitors, I may be able to answer it. Those are both big “ifs.”

I daresay you would understand competitor needs already, and that assessing customer need is implicit within the job description.

To me, it is a black/white decision. I have been in the same position, and the distinction is always obvious, (if difficult to agree with, when sales targets (explicit or not) are breathing down your neck).

Having the best product, at the best price, with the best service, eliminates the majority of moral objections that could arise. But this is not always present.

 

[ElizabethPH]

I do understand business, but we are clearly disagreeing on what is acceptable within sales.

I am inclined towards scrupulosity, but I don’t think this is a manifestation of it. Rather, we are disagreeing on the nature of business.

If a customer specifically asked you whether your product was more suited to his needs (vs a competitor), and you knew that your product would suit him fine, despite competitor offerings being better, how would you respond?

I also think your scrupulous nature is evident. That you acknowledge a scrupulous nature is good; think about the fact that you have dragged this thread into argument after argument on what your career ought to be according to over scrupulous notions that all jobs except for the lowest and more mundane ones are infact immoral.

 

[Magicsilence]

Still not sure what “morality of jobs” has to do with “maximizing of profits”.

For example, if companies maximize their profits, then why do companies go out of business? Why do companies declare bankruptcy?

For the same reason attempted murder remains attempted. The intent is still present.

Call up a bunch of companies and ask for copies of their annual reports and read through the descriptions of what they do and the innovations they are making to survive and thrive, and then read through the balance sheets and earnings statements. Can you tell which ones are “maximizing their profits” or which ones are engaged in immoral jobs? What should they be doing differently? [Be VERY specific.] What qualifies you to make those recommendations?

Nearly all will be maximising profits. You can see for yourself by looking at business objectives. If one of them is to maximise shareholder wealth, then that is the maximisation of profits. Want just one example? Nike should stop allowing suppliers to abuse workers physically and sexually. They should apply their code of conduct at an international, ground level and sever ties with suppliers that refuse to co-operate. Surveillance cameras should be set up to prevent any future abuse.

There are large companies that are privately owned. Seem to be doing well. Can you find a list of them (from Forbes annual listing, for example) and then see which ones have competition and which ones have no competition? How will you know which ones have moral jobs and which ones are immoral?

Some firms, such as companies on Wall Street pay out HUGE bonuses. Is that immoral? And yet, some companies on Wall Street fold … go away … go out of business … sell their corporate identity to a competitor. Why, if they maximize their profits, do they need to do that? Why do Wall Street firms have bad years and are forced to lay off so many people who they trained at great cost?

I am going to suggest that labelling jobs as immoral or putting a negative cast onto “maximizing of profits” does not correspond to reality.

The business world is highly dynamic … companies go up and down. Very few endure forever. No one makes perfect decisions that meet every market contingency. The railroads were very big, then they went into decline, now they are coming back.

I would suggest actually getting out there. Break the “prime directive” Never Volunteer ] and volunteer for everything. Get a lot of life experience.

It is very difficult to argue “profits” and “morality of jobs” with very little life experience.

You have to ask yourself: does the value of your daily effort contribute to keeping the company in business?

No company is perfect.

Government agencies tend to stay in business for a very long time because they are immune to the discipline of the market, so there is a whole 'nuther discussion of the morality of jobs when the primary goal is to increase the annual budget and head count.

God has a plan for each of us. It’s just that none of us know what it is. It may take 50 years to tease the plan out and figure it out. We may never figure it out.

Do the best you can.

Avoid being a “hothouse Christian” … be in the world [although not of the world]. Avoid living in your mother’s back bedroom.

Get out there.

Take flying lessons.

Become an EMT.

Learn welding.

I have already taken flying lessons, undergone training for a workable, practical skill, and spent last year renting a house next to university. But thanks for the advice

 

[Magicsilence]

I also think your scrupulous nature is evident. That you acknowledge a scrupulous nature is good; think about the fact that you have dragged this thread into argument after argument on what your career ought to be according to over scrupulous notions that all jobs except for the lowest and more mundane ones are infact immoral.

I have laid out my case. You are right, the question I wanted to ask is exactly - are all but the simplest jobs immoral?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I haven’t read all the many posts, so if this is redundant, ignore it.

For a long time, I have thought of working this way:
-People will not readily part with their money, as a general rule.

-If they are willing to part with it, it is because they want or need the good or service offered.

-My business is a professional service. My hobby is raising cattle.
People pay for both.

-If my service is something for which people are willing to pay, or if they want to nourish themselves or others with my cattle and are willing to pay for that, then I am doing something good for them. Otherwise they wouldn’t pay for it. How they use it is up to their own consciences. In my mind, no higher earthly compliment could be paid to me than to have someone so value my services or my cattle that they are willing to pay money for them.

In some other job, someone other than the end user pays me. If my boss is willing to pay me money for my services, that is a high compliment, and a sure sign that my efforts result in things people (the customers) want or need.

We can’t look at jobs and know for sure what the good/ill balance is from the products or services. We just can’t know. I guess, for example, an IPod is a needless extravagence for many. But yet, it might bring cheer to someone who really needs that. It might help a tired motorist stay awake. Oil companies might be concerning for the environment, but right now, that oil keeps people from freezing to death or starving because food can’t be transported without it. That oil is what gets family members to the bedside of a dying relative, or lights the operating room where that relative might be saved. The mining company that digs up the land for mineral provides the metal for the life-saving surgeon’s scalpel, the wire that carries electricity to the respirator and the child’s night light, and the machines that help a working mother have a little time for rest.

The Old Testament, particularly, honors work, and makes it clear that it is not to be disdained. We can’t always know the results of our work, anymore than we can always know what long-term effect one word or failure to say one word might have on another. it is not given to us to know all those things. But we certainly can know that God has promised that our work would be of value in His eyes, and that it is our function here to do it. And we know that if someone is willing to pay us for it, it is deemed a good thing by someone.

 

[Ignatius]

I graduate from university in Summer 2008, and am finding it morally taxing to think about what kind of a job would be pleasing to the Lord.

Most, if not all major/minor businesses are focused on profit maximisation and therefore (at least indirectly) serving the Devil

That is completely false. Nowhere does the Church teach that there is anything wrong with profits in business. I’m afraid you’ve come under the influence of those that teach the false liberation theology or some other false philosophy. Get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it.

You will find that matters most is what good you can do with the wealth and abundance that God gives you. Accept his gracious and bountiful blessings and use them to His glory! Glorify God and Sanctify your fellow man.

God bless.

 

[rlg94086]

I daresay you would understand competitor needs already, and that assessing customer need is implicit within the job description.

To me, it is a black/white decision. I have been in the same position, and the distinction is always obvious, (if difficult to agree with, when sales targets (explicit or not) are breathing down your neck).

You’ve been in the “same position” as what?

This morning I had a conference call with my VP of Sales to get some help finalizing a quote for an equipment bid worth a minimum of $10.5M (estimated) of business. The customer is one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers in the world. It is a blind bid - they won’t disclose the competitors who are bidding. They are asking for a high level of customization - no one offers a machine that completely matches their need. They have been sparing with information on their process and they are asking for some things which are virtually impossible. When we question them, they say “well, in an ideal world we would like ‘x,’ but we are open to suggestions.”

All very black/white, eh?

Surprisingly, they haven’t asked me whose product was more suited to their needs (mine or my competitors).

BTW…they won’t commit to a quantity at this point, the engineering costs required to complete their customization is about $700k and they won’t pay an NRE. Would you like to give my CEO a call and give him some advice?

Having the best product, at the best price, with the best service, eliminates the majority of moral objections that could arise. But this is not always present.

Apparently, you have sold hamburgers up to this point.

 

[kage_ar]

That is completely false. Nowhere does the Church teach that there is anything wrong with profits in business. I’m afraid you’ve come under the influence of those that teach the false liberation theology or some other false philosophy. Get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it.

You will find that matters most is what good you can do with the wealth and abundance that God gives you. Accept his gracious and bountiful blessings and use them to His glory! Glorify God and Sanctify your fellow man.

God bless.

AMEN amen!

 

[Magicsilence]

I haven’t read all the many posts, so if this is redundant, ignore it.

For a long time, I have thought of working this way:
-People will not readily part with their money, as a general rule.

-If they are willing to part with it, it is because they want or need the good or service offered.

-My business is a professional service. My hobby is raising cattle.
People pay for both.

-If my service is something for which people are willing to pay, or if they want to nourish themselves or others with my cattle and are willing to pay for that, then I am doing something good for them. Otherwise they wouldn’t pay for it. How they use it is up to their own consciences. In my mind, no higher earthly compliment could be paid to me than to have someone so value my services or my cattle that they are willing to pay money for them.

In some other job, someone other than the end user pays me. If my boss is willing to pay me money for my services, that is a high compliment, and a sure sign that my efforts result in things people (the customers) want or need.

We can’t look at jobs and know for sure what the good/ill balance is from the products or services. We just can’t know. I guess, for example, an IPod is a needless extravagence for many. But yet, it might bring cheer to someone who really needs that. It might help a tired motorist stay awake. Oil companies might be concerning for the environment, but right now, that oil keeps people from freezing to death or starving because food can’t be transported without it. That oil is what gets family members to the bedside of a dying relative, or lights the operating room where that relative might be saved. The mining company that digs up the land for mineral provides the metal for the life-saving surgeon’s scalpel, the wire that carries electricity to the respirator and the child’s night light, and the machines that help a working mother have a little time for rest.

The Old Testament, particularly, honors work, and makes it clear that it is not to be disdained. We can’t always know the results of our work, anymore than we can always know what long-term effect one word or failure to say one word might have on another. it is not given to us to know all those things. But we certainly can know that God has promised that our work would be of value in His eyes, and that it is our function here to do it. And we know that if someone is willing to pay us for it, it is deemed a good thing by someone.

Thankyou for this post. It sheds a new angle on the subject.

Perhaps I could pose another question?

If you were offered a job by the mafia, why would it be immoral to take it?

 

[Magicsilence]

You’ve been in the “same position” as what?

This morning I had a conference call with my VP of Sales to get some help finalizing a quote for an equipment bid worth a minimum of $10.5M (estimated) of business. The customer is one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers in the world. It is a blind bid - they won’t disclose the competitors who are bidding. They are asking for a high level of customization - no one offers a machine that completely matches their need. They have been sparing with information on their process and they are asking for some things which are virtually impossible. When we question them, they say “well, in an ideal world we would like ‘x,’ but we are open to suggestions.”

All very black/white, eh?

Find a price, a level of customisation, and offer it. If you need more info, ask. If they are sparing, use your aptitude to analyse what they have given and match it to your options.

Surprisingly, they haven’t asked me whose product was more suited to their needs (mine or my competitors).

Since in your position, the customer is a major business. As I pointed out earlier, the situation I described may be more suited to FMCG’s and individual consumers.

BTW…they won’t commit to a quantity at this point, the engineering costs required to complete their customization is about $700k and they won’t pay an NRE. Would you like to give my CEO a call and give him some advice?

Incorporate the cost of the NRE into your price then.

Why do you think it is so difficult?

Apparently, you have sold hamburgers up to this point.

On an individual product basis, item price up to $110,000. Never flipped a burger in my life.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

That is completely false. Nowhere does the Church teach that there is anything wrong with profits in business. I’m afraid you’ve come under the influence of those that teach the false liberation theology or some other false philosophy. Get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it.

You will find that matters most is what good you can do with the wealth and abundance that God gives you. Accept his gracious and bountiful blessings and use them to His glory! Glorify God and Sanctify your fellow man.

God bless.

I’m afraid you didn’t catch my initial post. My gripe is with profit maximisation (above all else).

I have posted parts of the catechism on the subject, which refers to profit as necessary. I know this and acknowledge it.

My problem is, in line with the catechism, when profit is placed first in a business, and the morality of working for such an institution.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[davidv]

It seems you are confusing sin with immorality.

I am not confusing them. They are the same. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines sin as a “moral evil”, “immorality” in other words

Clear immorality must be avoided, while sin tolerated.

I don’t know where you get this. Sin cannot be tolerated. Sinners maybe, but not sin.

Since the world is made of sinners, there is no avoiding immorality. It must be confronted daily, hourly or even by the minute.

 

[Magicsilence]

I am not confusing them. They are the same. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines sin as a “moral evil”, “immorality” in other words

I don’t know where you get this. Sin cannot be tolerated. Sinners maybe, but not sin.

Since the world is made of sinners, there is no avoiding immorality. It must be confronted daily, hourly or even by the minute.

Contrast deliberately conning customers to your boss just having a bad temper.

One is clearly immoral, the other a sin.

That you can technically place both under each definition is missing the distinction the two words provide.

We will always work for a sinner, but they do not necessarily have to be immoral in business practices.

This is the distinction I believe you are confusing.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[davidv]

Contrast deliberately conning customers to your boss just having a bad temper.

One is clearly immoral, the other a sin.

That you can technically place both under each definition is missing the distinction the two words provide.

We will always work for a sinner, but they do not necessarily have to be immoral in business practices.

This is the distinction I believe you are confusing.

In Jesus Christ,

To me is it is a distinction without signifigance and therfore is immaterial. Both discribe action. For example, by what ever you mean by “bad tempered” it doesn’t become immoral or sinful until it results in a thought or action that is immoral or sinful. Until then it is just an attribute of the person’s character.

 

[Magicsilence]

To me is it is a distinction without signifigance and therfore is immaterial. Both discribe action. For example, by what ever you mean by “bad tempered” it doesn’t become immoral or sinful until it results in a thought or action that is immoral or sinful. Until then it is just an attribute of the person’s character.

I disagree. One is a positive action to evil, the other a moment of weakness.

To group the two under one heading classifies all sinners as immoral, including all saints, and the apostles. Yet clearly the title is not apt.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[jmcrae]

I’m afraid you didn’t catch my initial post. My gripe is with profit maximisation (above all else).

Businesses maximise profits in order to be able to stay out of debt and to be able to plan for the future - upgrade equipment, hire more staff, or just sock something away for a rainy day, so that if business goes bad at some point, they can weather the storm while they adapt the business to the new conditions.

The only way it would be “bad” is if they did it in an immoral way - for example, selling illegal drugs out the back door, or misrepresenting shoddy material as “the best,” or letting defective merchandise remain on the shelves.

I don’t know why you insist on assuming that all businesses everywhere con their customers - they don’t. Those that plan to stay in business over the long term in fact go out of their way to make sure that their customers are well-educated about the products they are buying.

 

[Magicsilence]

Businesses maximise profits in order to be able to stay out of debt and to be able to plan for the future - upgrade equipment, hire more staff, or just sock something away for a rainy day, so that if business goes bad at some point, they can weather the storm while they adapt the business to the new conditions.

The only way it would be “bad” is if they did it in an immoral way - for example, selling illegal drugs out the back door, or misrepresenting shoddy material as “the best,” or letting defective merchandise remain on the shelves.

I don’t know why you insist on assuming that all businesses everywhere con their customers - they don’t. Those that plan to stay in business over the long term in fact go out of their way to make sure that their customers are well-educated about the products they are buying.

Jm,

Businesses remain in profit in order to survive.

The maximisation of profit comes with shareholders, or the owners desire for more money.

The Church condemns this when the business is not being used to the greater good of mankind. Benefit by number not amount of money.

Since this is what most businesses do, it prompted the thread.

Can I also point out that I know what you are trying to say, namely that some businesses maximise profit to remain ‘alive’. In that context, trying to maximise profit for the long-term security of the firm, so that the negative outcomes (loss of jobs etc…) do not occur, then it is not wrong, provided it is done morally.

My problem is with financially stable companies employing immoral means to further increase profit (mainly done by the senior managers with a view to their own bonus). 90% + of modern businesses fall into this category.

In Jesus Christ,