Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[jmcrae]

Jm,

Businesses remain in profit in order to survive.

The maximisation of profit comes with shareholders, or the owners desire for more money.

Which comes about because of something they want to spend it on. Most business owners I’ve encountered pour everything they get back into the business. One guy I used to work for actually lived in his office - he poured the money that he would have spent on a house back into the business, to keep it financially stable. (He was ever so slightly nuts - but he never bounced a cheque for as long as I was working for him, and for me, that’s what counts.)

My problem is with financially stable companies employing immoral means to further increase profit (mainly done by the senior managers with a view to their own bonus). 90% + of modern businesses fall into this category.

How are you arriving at a figure of 90%? It doesn’t correspond to my experience of the real world.

 

[rlg94086]

=
Incorporate the cost of the NRE into your price then.

Why do you think it is so difficult?

Brilliant! Why couldn’t my entire sales staff think of that? Wow, you saved the deal! We will just increase the price of the system from $470k to $1.17M. I’m sure that will do it.

As I mentioned, there is no commitment to quantity. We are burying it in the price, but over how many machines is the question. Thanks for your help.

By the way…nothing immoral has transpired in this whole transaction…unless looked at from your perspective, in which the whole business is immoral. But, if that is the case, then you should stop using your computer to post messages on the internet. The semiconductors that make it run exist with the help of these immoral businesses…including a lot of immoral salesmen. Raw materials, equipment, distributors, OEMs, retailers…they all employ salesmen.

Do you understand what I am saying? There is no way that you could avoid supporting businesses that don’t meet your standards, especially the high standard you have set out. As you know from the classes you took to earn your new degree, there are multiple layers of businesses represented in every product you buy/use. Therefore, anytime you buy/use something, you are supporting all of those businesses. Quite a quandry, eh? As you type, you are indirectly paying my salary. So, I hope you don’t think what I do is immoral…you are supporting it.

 

[davidv]

I disagree. One is a positive action to evil, the other a moment of weakness.

To group the two under one heading classifies all sinners as immoral, including all saints, and the apostles. Yet clearly the title is not apt.

In Jesus Christ,

So when someone is sinning, how is it that they are not acting immorally.

Using immorality as catalogue label changes the meaning of the word. It is no wonder then, that we are having so much trouble communicating.

Please note this definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Morality - Morality is antecedent to ethics: it denotes those concrete activities of which ethics is the science. It may be defined as human conduct in so far as it is freely subordinated to the ideal of what is right and fitting

Note the use of “activities” not condition.

 

[Magicsilence]

So when someone is sinning, how is it that they are not acting immorally.

Using immorality as catalogue label changes the meaning of the word. It is no wonder then, that we are having so much trouble communicating.

Please note this definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Note the use of “activities” not condition.

David,

If you don’t want to maintain the distinction, it is your right. There is no point arguing over this.

 

[Magicsilence]

Brilliant! Why couldn’t my entire sales staff think of that? Wow, you saved the deal! We will just increase the price of the system from $470k to $1.17M. I’m sure that will do it.

Sarcasm isn’t necessary.

As I mentioned, there is no commitment to quantity. We are burying it in the price, but over how many machines is the question. Thanks for your help.

If it is only a question of how many, what harm is there in giving a range of prices, based on quantity? Surely your customer realises there is no other way?

By the way…nothing immoral has transpired in this whole transaction…unless looked at from your perspective, in which the whole business is immoral. But, if that is the case, then you should stop using your computer to post messages on the internet. The semiconductors that make it run exist with the help of these immoral businesses…including a lot of immoral salesmen. Raw materials, equipment, distributors, OEMs, retailers…they all employ salesmen.

Do you understand what I am saying? There is no way that you could avoid supporting businesses that don’t meet your standards, especially the high standard you have set out. As you know from the classes you took to earn your new degree, there are multiple layers of businesses represented in every product you buy/use. Therefore, anytime you buy/use something, you are supporting all of those businesses. Quite a quandry, eh? As you type, you are indirectly paying my salary. So, I hope you don’t think what I do is immoral…you are supporting it.

Yes, I do, and it is a good point. But buying bread from a greedy baker because he is the only one in town, is different to working for him towards the same goal.

 

[whatevergirl]

I work for a global insurance broker…hmmm…I wonder what you might think about that type of industry, magicsilence.

At the risk of sounding lazy, could you please reiterate what you mean by an organization/corporation ‘maximizing’ its profits? Thank you…sorry, I’m coming late into this discussion.

 

[kage_ar]

My problem is with financially stable companies employing immoral means to further increase profit (mainly done by the senior managers with a view to their own bonus). 90% + of modern businesses fall into this category.
,

In the spirit of honest debate, can you document this statistic?

 

[kage_ar]

A question for you - you are attending a University. Before accepting a degree from them, have you made sure this University supports no immoral causes? Have you investigated the Board of Trustees, the Professors and the Staff before you pay tuition to this institution?

 

[rlg94086]

Sarcasm isn’t necessary.

Oh, indeed it is.

If it is only a question of how many, what harm is there in giving a range of prices, based on quantity? Surely your customer realises there is no other way?

You do understand I am in a competitive situation, don’t you? It is not as simple as you think it is. My quote is not the only one my customer gets to review.

Yes, I do, and it is a good point. But buying bread from a greedy baker because he is the only one in town, is different to working for him towards the same goal.

Indeed, but all bakers are greedy by your standards. They are doing their best to maximize their profit in a very competitive field (I know, because another CAF poster worked for a bakery that had to close after they couldn’t compete…she went into great detail).

I think what you need to come to grips with is that profit is not immoral. Maximizing profit is also not immoral. Reread your Catechism. It is only immoral if immoral things are done in the process and/or the desire to maximize profit is the ultimate goal. I have to maximize profit on every deal I do. Sometimes the maximum profit is very small, but we take it for strategic reasons. Other times, the maximum profit is fairly comfortable. I have never charged a profit that is not in line with the market I am selling to.

Your assumption seems to be that going for the maximum profit means you are “ripping someone off” to use an American term. That is not the case in most companies. With the exception of some very volatile commodities, most sales are done within a profit range (this varies by market). A company that tries to overcharge or cheat its customers will eventually lose due to lack of sales or lawsuits.

 

[Magicsilence]

I work for a global insurance broker…hmmm…I wonder what you might think about that type of industry, magicsilence.

At the risk of sounding lazy, could you please reiterate what you mean by an organization/corporation ‘maximizing’ its profits? Thank you…sorry, I’m coming late into this discussion.

Profit maximisation means doing whatever possible to increase profit.

Ordinarily, it means using whatever means necessary while not breaking the law, but where organisations can do so and believe they will not be caught, breaking the law is also done.

Global insurance broker? I don’t think I know enough about it.

 

[Magicsilence]

In the spirit of honest debate, can you document this statistic?

It is the principle of our modern economy, and is reflective of my experience over the last 3 years.

I have not surveyed every business in the world to verify it.

 

[Magicsilence]

A question for you - you are attending a University. Before accepting a degree from them, have you made sure this University supports no immoral causes? Have you investigated the Board of Trustees, the Professors and the Staff before you pay tuition to this institution?

No, and they do support immorality. Yet I am somewhat limited in my choices of university (in England, they are all the same with regard to morality), whereas job choice is far wider in scope. Your point is still valid though.

 

[davidv]

It is the principle of our modern economy, and is reflective of my experience over the last 3 years.

Which recognizeble economist has postulated and supported this principle with valid research?

I have not surveyed every business in the world to verify it

So its just rhetoric?

 

[Magicsilence]

Oh, indeed it is.

I hope your view on it changes one day.

You do understand I am in a competitive situation, don’t you? It is not as simple as you think it is. My quote is not the only one my customer gets to review.

It really is as simple as I think. Draw up the figures with different quantities. Factor in the NRE. And then decide what should be added for profit on top. Give the customer a range of prices (and lead times), and he will compare them with the pre-determined number he had in mind. If your price is better than others, you ‘win’.

Indeed, but all bakers are greedy by your standards. They are doing their best to maximize their profit in a very competitive field (I know, because another CAF poster worked for a bakery that had to close after they couldn’t compete…she went into great detail).

Come on, I have never said that trying to remain profitable in a competitive market is evidence of greed. It is when the pursuit of profit becomes the aim of the business above all else, even in times of economic stability and financial success, that I have a problem. Unfortunately, this aptly describes all businesses on the NYSE, and the FTSE 100.

I think what you need to come to grips with is that profit is not immoral. Maximizing profit is also not immoral. Reread your Catechism. It is only immoral if immoral things are done in the process and/or the desire to maximize profit is the ultimate goal. I have to maximize profit on every deal I do. Sometimes the maximum profit is very small, but we take it for strategic reasons. Other times, the maximum profit is fairly comfortable. I have never charged a profit that is not in line with the market I am selling to.

The Catechism is clear. Maximising profit in place of using the business for the greater good of mankind is immoral.

Your assumption seems to be that going for the maximum profit means you are “ripping someone off” to use an American term. That is not the case in most companies. With the exception of some very volatile commodities, most sales are done within a profit range (this varies by market). A company that tries to overcharge or cheat its customers will eventually lose due to lack of sales or lawsuits.

The customer does not have to be ripped off for immorality to be present. The method, or even product diversification may be immoral in itself.

 

[Magicsilence]

Which recognizeble economist has postulated and supported this principle with valid research?

Try Michael Porter

So its just rhetoric?

Yes, is that really a problem?

 

[Dispector]

It is the principle of our modern economy, and is reflective of my experience over the last 3 years.

I have not surveyed every business in the world to verify it.

You sound like me. I worked at a bank. I have found many banking and business practices to be somewhat questionable. I finally reached the point when I discovered that business is not my lot in life. After discovering this I decided to pursue my dream that I’ve had for a long time.

I want to become a doctor and form a non-profit or charitable organization that provides health care to the poor or under-served. While going to school full-time, working full-time, and maintaining a strong GPA (I work or attend school 7 days a week… I don’t get days off) is extremely tiring and exhausting I know it is better than the alternative.

As my friend put it “You have two choices in life. Living the fulfilling life or the unfulfilling life.” If you feel that you are struggling in your current situation maybe you should rethink your position and where you want to take your life. As long as you follow God and listen to where He guides you things will be alright. You just have to be willing to make the jump. It sounds like you have the faith… now you need to jump.

Best of luck. My prayers are with you.

Mark

P.S. Sorry if I don’t respond… as I mentioned my time is very limited these days.

 

[rlg94086]

It really is as simple as I think. Draw up the figures with different quantities. Factor in the NRE. And then decide what should be added for profit on top. Give the customer a range of prices (and lead times), and he will compare them with the pre-determined number he had in mind. If you price is better than others, you ‘win’.

You need to give this one a rest…it is way out of your league. The process you describe is very simple, the business decisions behind that process are not.

Come on, I have never said that trying to remain profitable in a competitive market is evidence of greed. It is when the pursuit of profit becomes the aim of the business above all else, even in times of economic stability and financial success, that I have a problem. Unfortunately, this aptly describes all businesses on the NYSE, and the FTSE 100.

I agree with you, when you include “above all else;” however, you often seem to use a much broader brush. Regarding the businesses on the NYSE and FSTE 100, don’t work for any of them…there are still plenty of businesses to choose from.

The Catechism is clear. Maximising profit in place of using the business for the greater good of mankind is immoral.

Yes, but I don’t work for someone who “maximizes profit in place of using their business for the greater good of mankind.” I found someone who has their priorities in order. I’m sure you can too.

The customer does not have to be ripped off for immorality to be present. The method, or even product diversification may be immoral in itself.

I think it was pretty clear I was speaking about maximum profit. Are you now backing off your belief that “maximizing profit” is immoral?

 

[rlg94086]

Profit maximisation means doing whatever possible to increase profit.

Ordinarily, it means using whatever means necessary while not breaking the law, but where organisations can do so and believe they will not be caught, breaking the law is also done.

Ordinarily…according to you. When I talk about maximizing profit, it is within the morality of the workplace laid out by the Church. IOW…maximum profit would be after you have paid a good wage, treated your employees fairly, honestly dealt with your customers, etc. With all those in mind, you can still work towards maximizing profit.

 

[Magicsilence]

You need to give this one a rest…it is way out of your league. The process you describe is very simple, the business decisions behind that process are not.

With no real knowledge of the situation, I’m not sure how you could expect any more detail from myself?

You brought up the example as one of complexity.

Of course the business decisions are vastly complex and have massive impacts on cash flow, and stock decisions, and % utilisation of facilities, and workers needed, and the impact on the wider business etc…

If you want to dismiss what I say because I am not responding further for the sake of practicality, thats fine .

I agree with you, when you include “above all else;” however, you often seem to use a much broader brush. Regarding the businesses on the NYSE and FSTE 100, don’t work for any of them…there are still plenty of businesses to choose from.

My general experience is that the definition stretches to most SME’s in addition to the big players. Hence, this thread

Yes, but I don’t work for someone who “maximizes profit in place of using their business for the greater good of mankind.” I found someone who has their priorities in order. I’m sure you can too.

And this prompted the thread, to find out what other Catholics are doing.

I think it was pretty clear I was speaking about maximum profit. Are you now backing off your belief that “maximizing profit” is immoral?

It stands condemned by the catechism, and I have detailed this above.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

Ordinarily…according to you. When I talk about maximizing profit, it is within the morality of the workplace laid out by the Church. IOW…maximum profit would be after you have paid a good wage, treated your employees fairly, honestly dealt with your customers, etc. With all those in mind, you can still work towards maximizing profit.

Ordinarily, as in what is general common practice. Not just my own interpretation.

With all your factors in mind, profit remains necessary, but maximisation serves no purpose.