Morality of Kissing

[Kateri92]

So My boyfriend and I have been courting for just over a month now. I am wondering if any church leaders have given direction on the matter of non- married couples kissing. I know that there is nothing said specifically within the catechism about it, nor is there any doctrine. So, has any church official said anything about it?

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

 

[UbiCaritas]

So My boyfriend and I have been courting for just over a month now. I am wondering if any church leaders have given direction on the matter of non- married couples kissing. I know that there is nothing said specifically within the catechism about it, nor is there any doctrine. So, has any church official said anything about it?

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

There isn’t anything specific, no.

What DH and I did back then was to keep physical affection to a level we wouldn’t be embarrassed by if our grandparents and parish priests saw it. Effective.

(Think a quick peck, but no prolonged liplocks; hugs, but no groping, that sort of thing.)

Basically, use common sense.

 

[pensmama87]

There isn’t anything specific, no.

What DH and I did back then was to keep physical affection to a level we wouldn’t be embarrassed by if our grandparents and parish priests saw it. Effective.

(Think a quick peck, but no prolonged liplocks; hugs, but no groping, that sort of thing.)

Basically, use common sense.

Bingo.

If you get to a place where you’re very tempted, then you know to dial it back.

 

[EasterJoy]

So My boyfriend and I have been courting for just over a month now. I am wondering if any church leaders have given direction on the matter of non- married couples kissing. I know that there is nothing said specifically within the catechism about it, nor is there any doctrine. So, has any church official said anything about it?

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

Kissing is permissible, yes.

Do yourself an extremely big favor and renounce the mental habit of assigning blame for failures in advance. A married couple ought to be concerned with living a life of virtue together and taking the responsibility for doing it together. Adam and Eve’s fault-finding and excuse-making to the Almighty after the fact was not one of the more shining moments in salvation history.

Instead, assess together what is and is not a near occasion of sin, what unifies and what divides, and make your decisions jointly about those. Imitate the humility mutual support, and desire to comply with the Will of God of the Holy Family. That is a far better habit.

 

[Kateri92]

Kissing is permissible, yes.

Do yourself an extremely big favor and renounce the mental habit of assigning blame for failures in advance. A married couple ought to be concerned with living a life of virtue together and taking the responsibility for doing it together. Adam and Eve’s fault-finding and excuse-making to the Almighty after the fact was not one of the more shining moments in salvation history.

Instead, assess together what is and is not a near occasion of sin, what unifies and what divides, and make your decisions jointly about those. Imitate the humility mutual support, and desire to comply with the Will of God of the Holy Family. That is a far better habit.

Thank you for pointing this out. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of this. This makes so much sense though.

 

[Xantippe]

So My boyfriend and I have been courting for just over a month now. I am wondering if any church leaders have given direction on the matter of non- married couples kissing. I know that there is nothing said specifically within the catechism about it, nor is there any doctrine. So, has any church official said anything about it?

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

There are a number of CAF threads on this.

I like the advice in Perrault and Salkeld’s “How Far Can We Go?” I haven’t read the whole thing, but you can get a lot out of even the first 50-60 pages.

Let’s not be setting ourselves up for sin or planning for it. Both members of a couple are in charge of protecting their own and each other’s chastity. A romantic relationship should not be like a game of soccer or hockey, with one member of the couple designated to be the goalie who is 100% responsible for keeping shots from landing.

(Pensmama87, what do you think of analogy?)

 

[Kateri92]

There isn’t anything specific, no.

What DH and I did back then was to keep physical affection to a level we wouldn’t be embarrassed by if our grandparents and parish priests saw it. Effective.

(Think a quick peck, but no prolonged liplocks; hugs, but no groping, that sort of thing.)

Basically, use common sense.

Thank you for your reply. Does no prolonged liplocks mean several kisses in a row is not okay?

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for your reply. Does no prolonged liplocks mean several kisses in a row is not okay?

Mileage will vary. Be honest and take your temperature. A kiss is a good thing. Don’t be afraid of them. Just respect that they have a lot of power, for such small gestures.

 

[pensmama87]

There are a number of CAF threads on this.

I like the advice in Perrault and Salkeld’s “How Far Can We Go?” I haven’t read the whole thing, but you can get a lot out of even the first 50-60 pages.

Let’s not be setting ourselves up for sin or planning for it. Both members of a couple are in charge of protecting their own and each other’s chastity. A romantic relationship should not be like a game of soccer or hockey, with one member of the couple designated to be the goalie who is 100% responsible for keeping shots from landing.

(Pensmama87, what do you think of analogy?)

You deserve a stick tap.

 

[MaryHelp777]

So My boyfriend and I have been courting for just over a month now. I am wondering if any church leaders have given direction on the matter of non- married couples kissing. I know that there is nothing said specifically within the catechism about it, nor is there any doctrine. So, has any church official said anything about it?

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

The CC says, to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.
Could kissing put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin under the three conditions,?
The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

I would argue no kissing or physical contact.

Otherwise where are the boundaries, where is the limit, what is too much,
How many kisses is a sin? Unanswerable question, because truthfully just one could put either in thoughts or actions that are a mortal sin,

One of the things to confess in examinations of conscience in most booklets is: “Immodest touches” as a mortal sin under the three conditions, can kissing fall under this category of sin against the sixth commandment, this question answers that: Could one kiss incite a person to lustful thoughts that under the three conditions are a mortal sin? Yes one kiss can incite someone to lustful thoughts that are a mortal sin under the three conditions and the CC says it is a mortal sin, to not avoid near occasions of mortal sin.

 

[on_the_hill]

To me, it seems to me that as long as your intentions are not to provoke lust, and merely to show your significant other love and affection as a sign of loyalty there is no sin given you don’t merge into an intense make out session (since this becomes a (near) occasion of sin especially for the man). So is kissing permissible as a way to show affection for your loved one within a romantic relationship that is headed towards marriage? Also, if the line is crossed and sin occurs, are both at fault or is only the one driving the kissing at fault? Sorry for my confusion.

I think you pretty much laid out a good case as to why it’s o.k. for you.

The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

Well stated, but is it correct? I kinda think it’s an inaccurately strict interpretation.

 

[kozlosap]

Thank goodness that as Catholics we are not subject to the Duggar type of dating rules. Their “courting laws” were determined by this sex pervert named Bill Gothard who invented the Quiverfull movement. Just look where following those über ridiculous guidelines got the Duggars, a son with serious sexual dysfunction and daughters in denial with no formal education, so they could support their families should their upstanding and uneducated husband leave them high and dry.

Might I ask how old you are? Haven’t your parents weighed in on your question? I’m sorry that this is an issue for you.

 

[kozlosap]

The CC says, to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.
Could kissing put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin under the three conditions,?
The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

I would argue no kissing or physical contact.

Otherwise where are the boundaries, where is the limit, what is too much,
How many kisses is a sin? Unanswerable question, because truthfully just one could put either in thoughts or actions that are a mortal sin,

One of the things to confess in examinations of conscience in most booklets is: “Immodest touches” as a mortal sin under the three conditions, can kissing fall under this category of sin against the sixth commandment, this question answers that: Could one kiss incite a person to lustful thoughts that under the three conditions are a mortal sin? Yes one kiss can incite someone to lustful thoughts that are a mortal sin under the three conditions and the CC says it is a mortal sin, to not avoid near occasions of mortal sin.

Would you really marry a person that you had never kissed? To me, that’s almost like being in an arranged marriage =

 

[chuck001]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with kissing if done in purity. We are naturally inclined to show affection and bodily contact is just a manifestation of that. So while I do not think kissing is problem, remember, it is typically a first step leading to something else. I would strongly urge you to refrain from a make-out session because that is a crossover point where your body will impair judgement. In other words, intensely making out is nothing more than your body preparing for intercourse via arousal. Without going into detail, we know what happens to the male and female bodies when this occurs and is border lining impossible to stop. With that said, it may be beneficial to send up a prayer before so, asking for strength to just kiss with purity of spirit and avoid falling into temptation.

 

[Xantippe]

You deserve a stick tap.

Thanks!

 

[Xantippe]

The CC says, to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.
Could kissing put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin under the three conditions,?
The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

I would argue no kissing or physical contact.

Otherwise where are the boundaries, where is the limit, what is too much,
How many kisses is a sin? Unanswerable question, because truthfully just one could put either in thoughts or actions that are a mortal sin,

One of the things to confess in examinations of conscience in most booklets is: “Immodest touches” as a mortal sin under the three conditions, can kissing fall under this category of sin against the sixth commandment, this question answers that: Could one kiss incite a person to lustful thoughts that under the three conditions are a mortal sin? Yes one kiss can incite someone to lustful thoughts that are a mortal sin under the three conditions and the CC says it is a mortal sin, to not avoid near occasions of mortal sin.

I suspect that immodest touches primarily concern “bathing suit areas.”

With regard to your definition of “occasion of sin,” even making eye contact or being in the same room could achieve the same thing.

If we can’t even kiss our fiance(e) as we would our grandma or hold hands as we might at the Our Father in church, that’s pretty grim. Purely romantic gestures aside, there’s a lot of casual touch in normal platonic social interactions in North America and Europe–handshakes, social cheek kisses, hand-kissing, hand-holding while praying, hugs, encouraging pats on the back or arm, etc.

There are some good pictures here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-kissing

Also, people who are serious about each other and are intending to marry will almost certainly experience sexual desire before getting married. That’s a feature, not a bug.

 

[UbiCaritas]

There are a lot of times during marriage when sex is off the table, too. If you have a just reason for using NFP and have a halfway-decent marriage, you’re going to want sex during times when discernment says you need to abstain. Most doctors say to wait at least six weeks postpartum, and postpartum NFP being what it is, a lot of couples wait considerably longer to get a handle on signs and symptoms before risking intercourse. Perimenopausal NFP is also less than fun in that respect, from what I’ve heard. There are other times, too: someone has a UTI, an illness that makes sex either unwise or painful, and so on.

It’s a question of what you do with that desire. You can wallow in it or indulge it illicitly (bad), ignore it completely (also bad, because teaching yourself that Sex Is Bad, period, isn’t good for a married relationship), or note that it’s there, say, “hmmm, that’s good that that’s there, I’ll use that some other time when I can,” and then get busy doing something else to distract yourself.

The solution isn’t “My wife can’t have sex for the next six weeks, which coincidentally are probably going to be among the most difficult of her life, so I won’t hug her, kiss her, or give her a pat on the back when I tell her what a good job she’s doing as a mom. That’ll work wonders for our marriage!”

 

[underacloud]

The CC says, to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.
Could kissing put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin under the three conditions,?
The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

I would argue no kissing or physical contact.

Otherwise where are the boundaries, where is the limit, what is too much,
How many kisses is a sin? Unanswerable question, because truthfully just one could put either in thoughts or actions that are a mortal sin,

One of the things to confess in examinations of conscience in most booklets is: “Immodest touches” as a mortal sin under the three conditions, can kissing fall under this category of sin against the sixth commandment, this question answers that: Could one kiss incite a person to lustful thoughts that under the three conditions are a mortal sin? Yes one kiss can incite someone to lustful thoughts that are a mortal sin under the three conditions and the CC says it is a mortal sin, to not avoid near occasions of mortal sin.

You raise very important points - that any dating/courting couple needs to consider carefully - but you have not applied a correct understanding of “near occasion of sin”.

A near occasion of sin is not merely any occasion that “could” (to use your wording) lead to mortal sin. As Xantippe points out, such a strict application leads to all sorts of innocent situations being problematic.

A near occasion of sin is one in which “the danger is certain and probable”.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35228

So for kissing to be a near occasion of sin, it must be certain or probable that it would lead to mortal sin (lust, sex, etc). This is not necessarily the case, and the ambiguity is essentially why the matter has no clear or specific Church teaching.

You are correct that each couple must avoid any near occasion of sin, and if kissing proves to be such an occasion, it should be limited/avoided. But it is not clear a priori that such will be the case for any given couple.

 

[Xantippe]

So for kissing to be a near occasion of sin, it must be certain or probable that it would lead to mortal sin (lust, sex, etc). This is not necessarily the case, and the ambiguity is essentially why the matter has no clear or specific Church teaching.

You are correct that each couple must avoid any near occasion of sin, and if kissing proves to be such an occasion, it should be limited/avoided. But it is not clear a priori that such will be the case for any given couple.

Yes.

 

[SusanneT]

There isn’t anything specific, no.

What DH and I did back then was to keep physical affection to a level we wouldn’t be embarrassed by if our grandparents and parish priests saw it. Effective.

(Think a quick peck, but no prolonged liplocks; hugs, but no groping, that sort of thing.)

Basically, use common sense.

I agree I think that’s a good sensible approach.