Morality of War

[McHenry]

Christian military professionals are sometimes called upon to defend the morality of war. Our current dilemma over Syria brings this to a fine point. I am in concert with the Pope’s intention to pray for peace but am a realist about the inevitability of human conflict. The best we can do is pray for the end of current wars. As a great military professional once said, “Only the dead have seen the end of war.” The even greater concern to me is the spiritual warfare which is truly unending and more difficult to fight as it is unseen.

 

[Least]

I concur. Threaten violence (put people on notice they will not profit from perceived or potential aggression) and act on it when tested. Weakness is provacative, do not provoke others.
I believe it would be extremely difficult to find someone who has experienced war to say that it was something enjoyable. However, those who are vocally opposed to war are in denial as to the true reason they are able to.
Those who live by the sword may die by the sword, but those who do not live by the sword may die a thousand deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

 

[Least]

For spiritual warfare to occur (and it may be the only noble cause), you have to survive long enough here. Human Nature says that prospect may require direct action on your fellow peoples. Live with that, and you will survive to perform the other. Deny that, and St. Peter will check you in early.

 

[catholictiger]

I concur. Threaten violence (put people on notice they will not profit from perceived or potential aggression) and act on it when tested. Weakness is provacative, do not provoke others.
I believe it would be extremely difficult to find someone who has experienced war to say that it was something enjoyable. However, those who are vocally opposed to war are in denial as to the true reason they are able to.
Those who live by the sword may die by the sword, but those who do not live by the sword may die a thousand deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

But the Church calls for us to take seriously the act of War. It should be an option of last resort. Also the Church calls us never to use WMDs. I think the simple fact that syria may give up control of their chemical weapons is enough to say hold off on war.

But I disagree by the argument line those who don’t live by the sword may die a thousands deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

one of the things that gets under my skin is this idea that it’s either violence or we turn a blind eye. This is stupid there is almost always some diplomatic non violent way to approach an escalating conflict in a foreign country, and even if not sometimes adding more violence to an already violent event is not good thing to do.

I rarely support any act of War and I believe it is very in line with the Church to be very very hesitant to want to go to War. Yes the Church isn’t clear on how hesitant we should be when declaring war but it does say its an option of last resort, so I will treat it this way.

Remember a great evil should never be stopped with a greater evil. I believe in some of the ways our country has acted in the past constitutes this happening.

 

[Netty1]

But the Church calls for us to take seriously the act of War. It should be an option of last resort. Also the Church calls us never to use WMDs. I think the simple fact that syria may give up control of their chemical weapons is enough to say hold off on war.

But I disagree by the argument line those who don’t live by the sword may die a thousands deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

one of the things that gets under my skin is this idea that it’s either violence or we turn a blind eye. This is stupid there is almost always some diplomatic non violent way to approach an escalating conflict in a foreign country, and even if not sometimes adding more violence to an already violent event is not good thing to do.

I rarely support any act of War and I believe it is very in line with the Church to be very very hesitant to want to go to War. Yes the Church isn’t clear on how hesitant we should be when declaring war but it does say its an option of last resort, so I will treat it this way.

Remember a great evil should never be stopped with a greater evil. I believe in some of the ways our country has acted in the past constitutes this happening.

I agree with everything you say - - and include the UK with regard to the last sentence of your post.

When the parliament here voted against Prime Minister Cameron’s war cries, I said that there is much we can do to help without ending lives.

Incidentally, I come from a military family and those in my family in uniform also believe that taking lives should be as a last resort when all else has failed.

 

[JustaServant]

I remember when I was a little nipper and I saw the soldiers marching off to battle. Oh yes, it was a glorious sight alright!
My brother George was at Passchendale. Nigh on half a million Allied troops died there, all for five miles of mud! I was at King’s Cross station when his regiment came home after the armistice. Most of them was carried off the train. I saw men with limbs missing, blind men - men who couldn’t breathe properly 'cos their lungs had been shot to bits by mustard gas! While the nation celebrated they was hidden away in big grey buildings, far from the public gaze. I mean, courage like that could put you right off your victory dinner couldn’t it?
They promised us homes fit for heroes, instead they give us heroes fit for homes!
Lennard “Grandad” Pearce, Only Fools and Horses.

 

[marymary1975]

But the Church calls for us to take seriously the act of War. It should be an option of last resort. Also the Church calls us never to use WMDs. I think the simple fact that syria may give up control of their chemical weapons is enough to say hold off on war.

But I disagree by the argument line those who don’t live by the sword may die a thousands deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

one of the things that gets under my skin is this idea that it’s either violence or we turn a blind eye. This is stupid there is almost always some diplomatic non violent way to approach an escalating conflict in a foreign country, and even if not sometimes adding more violence to an already violent event is not good thing to do.

I rarely support any act of War and I believe it is very in line with the Church to be very very hesitant to want to go to War. Yes the Church isn’t clear on how hesitant we should be when declaring war but it does say its an option of last resort, so I will treat it this way.

Remember a great evil should never be stopped with a greater evil. I believe in some of the ways our country has acted in the past constitutes this happening.

I totally agree with you. Personally I don’t support any war because truth is, no war is just and second, based on that the means don’t justify the end, war seems to fall into a wrong mean to achieve an end, so I am totally with you.

 

[catholictiger]

I totally agree with you. Personally I don’t support any war because truth is, no war is just and second, based on that the means don’t justify the end, war seems to fall into a wrong mean to achieve an end, so I am totally with you.

the only thing I would say in response is that there is a very slight chance there is a just war so I wouldn’t go as far as saying no war is Just. It is in the realm of possibility that there is a situation where war would be called for and would be the moral thing to do.

but I say its so rare it may as well be non existence.

 

[Least]

I keep making the point, and it is avoided.

I didn’t say “love war” “pray the next one comes soon” “employ violence as a past-time” I just said stop being jello. Hold-out to all you meet that you are not one to be trifled with and you will be less likely to-be.

I didn’t say the above was a ‘Christian’ or “Catholic” attitude or belief. I just said it was one that would help you live longer. And I don’t want to hear the same line about those who protect their life will lose it, the very fact that you have a blessed second to type anything that winds up anywhere is being secured (as we type here right this second) because others are securing it. Don’t make their job harder by playing milktoast.

Human Nature, and surrounding nature, prey on those that even give a hint of the opposite (i.e., “weak and squishy”).

Argue that all you would like, but don’t stand close to me while you are doing it.

 

[marymary1975]

the only thing I would say in response is that there is a very slight chance there is a just war so I wouldn’t go as far as saying no war is Just. It is in the realm of possibility that there is a situation where war would be called for and would be the moral thing to do.

but I say its so rare it may as well be non existence.

well I pretty much say that because historically each and every war that has happened on earth has not been just, and just the result of men’s desire to conquer the world. the only one I could think as an exception are the crusades which started to stop the Otoman empire but in that case they did not start the war, they went to aid in stopping the Otoman empire, so I really don’t see any possibility or circumstance in which a just war can be called (besides defending yourself from an attacker but even in that situation now a days war always becomes dirty) little less in our days.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I keep making the point, and it is avoided.

I didn’t say “love war” “pray the next one comes soon” “employ violence as a past-time” I just said stop being jello. Hold-out to all you meet that you are not one to be trifled with and you will be less likely to-be.

I didn’t say the above was a ‘Christian’ or “Catholic” attitude or belief. I just said it was one that would help you live longer. And I don’t want to hear the same line about those who protect their life will lose it, the very fact that you have a blessed second to type anything that winds up anywhere is being secured (as we type here right this second) because others are securing it. Don’t make their job harder by playing milktoast.

Human Nature, and surrounding nature, prey on those that even give a hint of the opposite (i.e., “weak and squishy”).

Argue that all you would like, but don’t stand close to me while you are doing it.

If your point about war is only a practical one (“one that would help you live longer”) and not a ‘Christian’ or ‘Catholic’ attitude or belief, as you say, then why are you posting it here? There are many forums on the Internet where the practical aspects of specific wars and potential wars are discussed ad infinitum. But here in the Moral Theology subforum of Catholic Answers, one expects the postings to have something to do with Moral Theology.

For example, slipping out the back way at Gethsemane would have allowed Jesus to “live longer”, as you put it. But he was interested in the right way to live, rather than maximizing the number of hours he lived.

Those who profess to be Christian hold the moral values of war to be superior to the practical considerations you are raising. This is not to say your practical considerations are incorrect. Just that they are less important than the moral considerations.

 

[Brendan_64]

I concur. Threaten violence (put people on notice they will not profit from perceived or potential aggression) and act on it when tested. Weakness is provacative, do not provoke others.
I believe it would be extremely difficult to find someone who has experienced war to say that it was something enjoyable. However, those who are vocally opposed to war are in denial as to the true reason they are able to.
Those who live by the sword may die by the sword, but those who do not live by the sword may die a thousand deaths while cowering in hiding in the dark while waiting for the one with the sword.

And do you have any personal experience of being involved in war of conflict. Have you ever had family members blown up or shot? It’s very easy to talk about living by the sword when you’ve never had to pick up a sword and take the life of another yourself, or worse still, watch your family members die on the receiving end when they have been guilty of nothing other than trying to go about their everyday lives and provide for their family.

Losing a relative or friend in war is not better than losing a friend or relative to someone who walks up to them in the street and blows their brains out with a 35 revolver or slashes their throat with a knife. There is no honour in warfare, absolutely none.

 

[catholictiger]

well I pretty much say that because historically each and every war that has happened on earth has not been just, and just the result of men’s desire to conquer the world. the only one I could think as an exception are the crusades which started to stop the Otoman empire but in that case they did not start the war, they went to aid in stopping the Otoman empire, so I really don’t see any possibility or circumstance in which a just war can be called (besides defending yourself from an attacker but even in that situation now a days war always becomes dirty) little less in our days.

not even the crusades?

 

[marymary1975]

not even the crusades?

I said that the crusades is the only one that I can think as being just: the crusades are the only exception was my statement. I also said that the crusaders didn’t initiate the war. The crusades were a defense to a brutal war in order to stop the otomans, they didn’t start the war. The only way I can see a battle as just is under the same circumstances as the crusades and in the same way i.e. not involving any civilians which doesn’t happen in our time anymore.

 

[catholictiger]

I said that the crusades is the only one that I can think as being just: the crusades are the only exception was my statement. I also said that the crusaders didn’t initiate the war. The crusades were a defense to a brutal war in order to stop the otomans, they didn’t start the war. The only way I can see a battle as just is under the same circumstances as the crusades and in the same way i.e. not involving any civilians which doesn’t happen in our time anymore.

makes sense

I’m not as extreme on the no just war thing but I think its very rare.

 

[Timothysis]

I said that the crusades is the only one that I can think as being just: the crusades are the only exception was my statement. I also said that the crusaders didn’t initiate the war. The crusades were a defense to a brutal war in order to stop the otomans, they didn’t start the war. The only way I can see a battle as just is under the same circumstances as the crusades and in the same way i.e. not involving any civilians which doesn’t happen in our time anymore.

With all due respect, you know very little about the reasons for the crusades and you obviously know nothing of what the crusaders did.

 

[catholictiger]

With all due respect, you know very little about the reasons for the crusades and you obviously know nothing of what the crusaders did.

are all of the crusades just or unjust?

 

[Timothysis]

are all of the crusades just or unjust?

I don’t play the “just or unjust” game; neither does the Church. The only place where I see wars debated as just or not is here on CAF.

During the first crusade, Tancred the Norman, after battling his way onto the Temple Mount, raised his banner over the Al Aqsa mosque, guaranteeing his protection over anyone who sought refuge there. The next morning, crusaders burst in and killed every man, woman and child. Tell me, was that just?

Or Richard the Lionheart executing 6,000 muslim prisoners because the ransom payment was a bit late?

What about the numbers of Jews who were massacred as the People’s Crusade wound its way through Europe to Constantinople; was that just?

 

[catholictiger]

I don’t play the “just or unjust” game; neither does the Church. The only place where I see wars debated as just or not is here on CAF.

have you not read the catechism? Or Gaudium Et Spes?

the Church CLEARLY states in both documents that War CAN be just espically when it comes to self defense. Now the Catechism does set out very strict rules that need to be followed in order for a war to happen. I believe that more than just self defense would be a reason to go to War. Defense of human life can be another one. Again assuming all of the peace options have been exhausted, which I believe rarely happens now of days, War is an option.

The Church does play the just unjust game it is a teaching of the Catholic Church, from Gaudium et Spes and restated in the Catechism that War can be just but it is only an option of last resort.

for reference go to 2307

During the first crusade, Tancred the Norman, after battling his way onto the Temple Mount, raised his banner over the Al Aqsa mosque, guaranteeing his protection over anyone who sought refuge there. The next morning, crusaders burst in and killed every man, woman and child. Tell me, was that just?

Or Richard the Lionheart executing 6,000 muslim prisoners because the ransom payment was a bit late?

What about the numbers of Jews who were massacred as the People’s Crusade wound its way through Europe to Constantinople; was that just?

I’m not much of a history person

but do you know of St. Louis? Now there could be other reasons he is a saint but didn’t he lead his country into the third crusades and was the most successful of the crusades?

Why would the Church call this man a saint if no war can be just and he practically started a war.

 

[catholictiger]

one more thing the wars the people of Israel fought in order to secure the holy Land were these just or unjust?