T
tonyrey
Guest
Of course it is! If it is the lesser of two evils it is a moral obligation. Jesus submitted to an unjust execution when He could have saved Himself.
- Status
B
Betterave
Guest
LOL! That would be nice, but is *way *beyond realistic! I’d settle for you just being minimally rational and having a minimal amount of intellectual honesty. (Dare to dream, dare to dream…)Awww you so meanOnly if I was a ***real ***catholic like you
B
Betterave
Guest
That’s correct. Please consider what the Catechism says about suicide, and this should be obvious: “Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.”
T
tonyrey
Guest
An example of justifiable suicide is killing yourself rather than be subjected to extreme torture which you believe would make you reveal information which leads to the nuclear destruction of an entire city. Clearly the greater of two evils is death and prolonged suffering for many people as opposed to the swift death of one individual.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
tonyrey
*An example of justifiable suicide is killing yourself rather than be subjected to extreme torture which you believe would make you reveal information which leads to the nuclear destruction of an entire city. Clearly the greater of two evils is death and prolonged suffering for many people as opposed to the swift death of one individual. *
Indeed, this constitutes sacrifice rather than what is usually meant by suicide. Suicide as a repudiation of our own life is forbidden. Yielding one’s life that others may live, as Christ did on the Cross, is sacrifice.
John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friend.”
*An example of justifiable suicide is killing yourself rather than be subjected to extreme torture which you believe would make you reveal information which leads to the nuclear destruction of an entire city. Clearly the greater of two evils is death and prolonged suffering for many people as opposed to the swift death of one individual. *
Indeed, this constitutes sacrifice rather than what is usually meant by suicide. Suicide as a repudiation of our own life is forbidden. Yielding one’s life that others may live, as Christ did on the Cross, is sacrifice.
John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friend.”
S
sidbrown
Guest
Suppose that in the middle of the ocean a ship is sinking and twelve people scramble and get on a lifeboat built for only eleven people. The lifeboat is sinking and all twelve will drown and die unless one person leaves the lifeboat. Suppose then that you jump off the lifeboat in order that eleven will be saved. If you did not, then all twelve would drown and die. Would you then go to hell for committing suicide, even though your actions resulted in saving the lives of eleven people? Was your action of suicide contrary to the law of God?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
sidbrown
*Was your action of suicide contrary to the law of God? *
Again, sacrifice is not the same as suicide. Jesus on the cross was a sacrifice, not a suicide.
*Was your action of suicide contrary to the law of God? *
Again, sacrifice is not the same as suicide. Jesus on the cross was a sacrifice, not a suicide.
J
jonfawkes
Guest
It a matter of semantics - the secular definition - this one by M-W
a : the act or an instance of taking one’s own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind
There are instances of taking one’s life but doing it for the benefit of others then it’s deemed sacrifice. It is the same act but because of the intentions the church doesn’t call it suicide even though it qualifies as such.
A more clear definition by the church would be suicide for selfish purposes is immoral rather than suicide is immoral. Killing yourself is killing yourself - the word we use in English is suicide.
T
tonyrey
Guest
From the legal standpoint suicide is simply the voluntary and intentional act of taking one’s own life - regardless of the motive. There are those who argue that to kill oneself is a mortal sin even if it is a sacrifice which saves many lives and prevents much suffering. Moral laws are regarded as ends in themselves rather than for the benefit of persons. When this view is taken to its logical extreme an individual would be justified in allowing the entire population of the world (including himself!) to perish rather than prevent a nuclear holocaust. That is not the sublime folly of the Cross but sheer folly…
S
sidbrown
Guest
What is suicide except the voluntary and intentional act of taking one’s own life?
B
Betterave
Guest
Some people here seem to think that an act is separable from the intention of the act. Any act, in the context of a moral analysis of that act, is in fact necessarily constitutively specified (in part) by the intention of the act.
FYI (my bolding):
ARTICLE 4
THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS
1749 Freedom makes man a moral subject. When he acts deliberately, man is, so to speak, the father of his acts. Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil.
I. THE SOURCES OF MORALITY
1750 The morality of human acts depends on:
- the object chosen;
- the end in view or the intention;
- the circumstances of the action.
B
Betterave
Guest
This is not suicide because my (sacrificial) death is not intended, it is only foreseen. In practical terms this means that if, unexpectedly, a dolphin came along to hold me up and prevent me from drowning, I wouldn’t say, “shoo, dolphin - I’m busy committing suicide here.”
J
jonfawkes
Guest
Suicide simply means self killing, just as homicide literally means man killer, more commonly one human killing another - there are justified homicides there are justified suicides.
Where would you place Samson? Grave sinner or Bible Hero?
[BIBLEDRB]Judges 16:29-30[/BIBLEDRB]
T
tonyrey
Guest
Obviously not. It is sophistry to distinguish between killing yourself and committing an act which you know will result in your death. The overriding principle is that your intention to end your life and your execution of that intention are justified if the result is the lesser of two evils.
B
Betterave
Guest
No, please refer to the Catechism again. In the context of a Catholic moral discussion of suicide (which is the relevant context here), suicide is equivalent to murder - it is an intrinsically immoral category. Again, if you want to use the term differently, you can do so, but you have to clearly state that you are not using the term according to its normally accepted meaning in a Catholic discussion of morality.
Samson was obviously both a grave sinner and a Bible hero - but that really isn’t relevant to what we’re discussing here.
B
Betterave
Guest
You’ve just proven that you don’t understand one of the basic tenets of Catholic moral reasoning - and apparently you’re happy to be ignorant.
As I pointed out, however:
This is not suicide because my (sacrificial) death is not intended, it is only foreseen. In practical terms this means that if, unexpectedly, a dolphin came along to hold me up and prevent me from drowning, I wouldn’t say, “shoo, dolphin - I’m busy committing suicide here.”
I think that’s a very obvious and practical distinction, one that is universally made by Catholic moral philosophers, one that is found in the Church’s universal Catechism, but you don’t address it, you don’t show any effort to understand it, you just pooh-pooh it away as sophistry. Whatever, buddy. With Catholics like you, who needs anti-Catholics?
R
ronnie_bonigli
Guest
Yup, I too realized said poster and one or two other on this thread have wandered far from what could be reasonably called the catholic faith. Sad thing is, I don’t think they even know itYou’ve just proven that you don’t understand one of the basic tenets of Catholic moral reasoning - and apparently you’re happy to be ignorant.
As I pointed out, however:
This is not suicide because my (sacrificial) death is not intended, it is only foreseen. In practical terms this means that if, unexpectedly, a dolphin came along to hold me up and prevent me from drowning, I wouldn’t say, “shoo, dolphin - I’m busy committing suicide here.”
I think that’s a very obvious and practical distinction, one that is universally made by Catholic moral philosophers, one that is found in the Church’s universal Catechism, but you don’t address it, you don’t show any effort to understand it, you just pooh-pooh it away as sophistry. Whatever, buddy. With Catholics like you, who needs anti-Catholics?
J
jonfawkes
Guest
I’m using the standard English definition - self killing.
How is Samson not relevant?
He committed suicide!!![BIBLEDRB]Judges 16:29-30[/BIBLEDRB]
How about Saul? Another Suicide.
[BIBLEDRB]1 samuel 31:4[/BIBLEDRB]
B
Betterave
Guest
Which is irrelevant, jon. Why don’t you try reading what I wrote and actually responding to it?I’m using the standard English definition - self killing.
How is Samson not relevant?
“Suicides exist, for example, Saul” is a bare statement of fact. As such it does not constitute a relevant point in a moral analysis. Obviously.
D
dskysmine
Guest
No I didn’t… YOU ignored my questions regarding your scenario and then accused me of not making questions. That’s called “lying”.You completely ignored my point, Daniel.
You should realize that with this ‘argument’ you are no different from some protestant Bible-alone rube ranting about how the Pope is the anti-Christ, since that’s what the Bible clearly shows.
I’m not using the Bible literally… I’m using it to base my conclusions. The conclusions I made are probably never mentioned in the Bible. At least I’ve never seen them directly expressed there. I also find it amusing that you’d use an example that would counteract my conclusions instead of expressing what is in fact the base of morality because, let’s face it… you obviously haven’t made much effort in thinking about it.
I have never had a problem finding out if something is wrong or is right, and I’ve done both very often. You seem to struggle with the first.
Best wishes,
Daniel
- Status