Morality without God?

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**That argument will have no effect on a person who does not associate person-hood with a foetus. **

Such a person is lacking in common sense. We are all born inn and from our mother’s womb.
 
That argument will have no effect on a person who does not associate person-hood with a foetus.
Which goes to prove my point! To select any stage of development after conception as a criterion for being a person is an arbitrary decision motivated by expediency not morality…
 
If your children died of disease and malnutrition due to human greed and selfishness I’m sure you wouldn’t distinguish violence from culpable neglect…
Indeed not. But if death caused by disease and malnutrition are a direct result of war, then the figures are included. Which may not be the case with Peter’s figures. That’s something I’ll investigate.
 
Indeed not. But if death caused by disease and malnutrition are a direct result of war, then the figures are included. Which may not be the case with Peter’s figures. That’s something I’ll investigate.
The data in my last post came from Table 2.2 at this link:

hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM#TAB

A variety of other statistical dimensions exist that may help you investigate further. Esp. Tables 2.1A and 2.1B.
 
Indeed not. But if death caused by disease and malnutrition are a direct result of war, then the figures are included. Which may not be the case with Peter’s figures. That’s something I’ll investigate.
There’s an additional fact that doesn’t need investigation. The insidious exploitation of the poorer nations by international corporations, financial institutions and ruthless capitalists abusing the power of modern technology and communications has caused an unprecedented level of injustice, crime, violence, conflict, poverty, famine, disease, malnutrition, unemployment, homelessness, deforestation, pollution and destruction of natural resources.
 
How can a civilization develop a moral consensus on anything without reference to the commandments of God?
With greater ease than they can with reference to the commandments of God, I would say. Without having to pay attention to the weird proclivities of a being who probably doesn’t even exist, we can pay attention to the effects our actions really have on others, and moderate our behaviour accordingly…
 
Tyrion

** A smoothly working society would derive its morals from the principle of reciprocity (which translates into the two versions of the golden rule). That is all that is needed. Do not harm others. Respect others. “The right of my fist ends where your nose begins”. No deity needed there. Reason is sufficient. And, of course, no “authority” is needed! **

But without God, there would be no reason for everybody to be reasonable. The man who says “The right of my fist is unlimited” cannot be challenged as immoral if his the power of his fist is unlimited. In that case, what good is an appeal to reason? Think Hitler and Mao, both creators of dominantly atheist regimes.
So, what you’re essentially saying here is that without the threat of divine punishment or the promise of divine reward, no-one has any reason, whatsoever, to act in a moral fashion?

And you make the same mistake as everyone who cites Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other totalitarian dictators as ‘examples’ of what happens when ‘secular morality’ is allowed to develop - you miss the pertinent fact that these dictators made themselves gods, with the power to intimately control the behaviour of their subordinates. That is not secular morality - it is an attempt at worldly religious dogmatism, one that ignores real human needs just as vehemently as any supernaturalist religion.

What about the much more immediate effects of one’s actions in the real world? Are you so focused on the afterlife that you miss these?
 
A dictator comes, conquers, and rules with an iron first. Is his actions morally wrong?

Equality of man can only hinge on a transcendent authority. If there is no authority beyond our own, we have to fight and kill each other until one of us has the authority and power to make us equals.

What can you possibly base secular morals upon apart from yourself and your feelings? Then the real authority in life is the media or psychiatrists who can influence society’s feelings.
 
Tyrion

They were repressive, totalitarian regimes.

Tell that to the millions who were annihilated by them. You obviously have not read history, or as an atheist you have conveniently forgotten it.
Uh, yeah.

The fact that the governments of the likes of Mussolini, Hitler, Mao and Stalin were repressive and totalitarian only characterises them as repressive and totalitarian - not as particularly secular or irreligious (especially given that they made themselves ‘little gods’ in their own right). Monotheistic societies have applied totalitarian repression (divine right of kings, anyone?) with rabid enthusiasm also - it was their stock-in-trade in the West until the Enlightenment; and it still is their stock-in-trade in large sections of the Middle East…
 
Equality of man can only hinge on a transcendent authority. If there is no authority beyond our own, we have to fight and kill each other until one of us has the authority and power to make us equals.
Um…why?

Do you really believe that humans are collectively incapable of noticing the conditions under which we might collectively flourish? That we don’t have innate tendencies towards co-operation and altruism (when we’re permitted by governing regimes, of course - let’s not forget that political and religious dogmatism influences popular thinking, after all)? You genuinely believe that we need someone to tell us what’s right, that we can’t intuitively feel it? Wow.
 
People have eaten their neighbors based on feeling. Please give me a foundation of morality stone and not hay. Hasn’t history taught you that it is very easy to justify evil based on feelings?

Combine a Malthusian mindset, a world without God is a cruel place indeed.
 
Sair
**
The fact that the governments of the likes of Mussolini, Hitler, Mao and Stalin were repressive and totalitarian only characterises them as repressive and totalitarian - not as particularly secular or irreligious (especially given that they made themselves ‘little gods’ in their own right). Monotheistic societies have applied totalitarian repression (divine right of kings, anyone?) with rabid enthusiasm also - it was their stock-in-trade in the West until the Enlightenment; and it still is their stock-in-trade in large sections of the Middle East…**

You have just made the case against a godless morality. Godless people set themselves up as “little gods” and, instead of acting out of love, rule as tyrants whose enemies list is long and daunting.
 
Um…why?

Do you really believe that humans are collectively incapable of noticing the conditions under which we might collectively flourish? That we don’t have innate tendencies towards co-operation and altruism (when we’re permitted by governing regimes, of course - let’s not forget that political and religious dogmatism influences popular thinking, after all)? You genuinely believe that we need someone to tell us what’s right, that we can’t intuitively feel it? Wow.
We also have innate tendencies towards aggression, violence, selfishness and security. The question is, under what influences are altruism and cooperation chosen that preclude the choosing of selfishness and aggression? You are claiming something like “intuitively feeling,” but someone else might claim an intuitive feeling that leads them to be aggressive or tyrannical. What makes one intuition superior to another without appeal to a transcendent reality that makes one or the other innately right? Human “nature” seems to have a mixture of somewhat or apparently innate and contradictory feelings that opposing viewpoints can point to as “right.” With no final court of appeal to jury among the contenders what sense can be made of not needing “someone” to tell us what is right? Human history seems to strongly indicate that humans do not “intuitively” act on such feelings, but rather find ways of circumventing legitimate promptings concerning moral behaviour.
 
Uh, yeah.

The fact that the governments of the likes of Mussolini, Hitler, Mao and Stalin were repressive and totalitarian only characterises them as repressive and totalitarian - not as particularly secular or irreligious (especially given that they made themselves ‘little gods’ in their own right). Monotheistic societies have applied totalitarian repression (divine right of kings, anyone?) with rabid enthusiasm also - it was their stock-in-trade in the West until the Enlightenment; and it still is their stock-in-trade in large sections of the Middle East…
The “divine right of kings” has no Biblical support in either of the Testaments. Both claim that the only Being with anything like a “divine right” is God. The idea of a “king” in monotheism came explicitly from the people who had abdicated trust in God, and wanted a king to be like the other nations around them to lead them in battle and secure territory. Clearly, it was a lack of faith in God that prompted what you claim to be the initial monotheistically motivated request for a king, which in fact was contrary to God’s will as repeatedly pointed out through the words of the prophets, beginning with Samuel.

*So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.”

Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”


When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.” (1 Samuel 8:4-22)*

Clearly, the idea of a king having some kind of divine right or sanction is not a Biblical one, since God warned the people, through Samuel and a number of other prophets, of the abuse of power that kings will characteristically demonstrate.

Furthermore, read through the litany of the deeds of the kings of Israel (Northern Kingdom) and Judah (Southern Kingdom) following the first three kings, Saul, David and Solomon (1 & 2 Kings). They were almost universally condemned as “doing evil in the sight of The Lord.” This does not support your claim that kings have some sort of divine sanction from God to rule on earth. On the contrary, Biblical Judaism and Christianity claim only one legitimate king, God himself.
 
Thanks for that. I’ll do some studying and get back to you. If your information is more credible than mine, I shall defer…
Might I suggest you read Chapters 5-7 of The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day for a well defended Christian rebuttal of the role of religious belief as a cause of war. There is also, in the later chapter on Sam Harris a case made against Harris’ contention that more liberal and atheistic political jurisdictions are less prone to evil. Mr. Day shows the opposite is true using Harris’ own statistics.

A free download of the book is available in PDF form here:

photo.goodreads.com/documents/1241093826books/1142464.pdf

Good luck in your studying. 🙂
 
Um…why?

Do you really believe that humans are collectively incapable of noticing the conditions under which we might collectively flourish? That we don’t have innate tendencies towards co-operation and altruism (when we’re permitted by governing regimes, of course - let’s not forget that political and religious dogmatism influences popular thinking, after all)? You genuinely believe that we need someone to tell us what’s right, that we can’t intuitively feel it? Wow.
Do you really think that parents can’t decide what’s best for the family? Do you really think…I can go on and on.

Your question presupposes that:
  1. People are looking for some kind of common, universal good.
  2. People agree on what that good would look like.
  3. People would put effort into the common good, even if it meant that they’d lose out on something,.
 
With greater ease than they can with reference to the commandments of God, I would say. Without having to pay attention to the weird proclivities of a being who probably doesn’t even exist, we can pay attention to the effects our actions really have on others, and moderate our behaviour accordingly…
And I would say nothing could be more wierd than the proclivities of someone who thinks God either does not exist, or is a part of the universe, or of whom the universe is a part. Such a person hasn’t advanced much past Thales of ancient Greece. Linus
 
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