Morality without God?

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Bella

** I’ve had the church double speak for so long now, I have no problem recognising it.**

You seem to have a big chip on your shoulder about Church doublespeak. Can you give me an example other than the one you wrongly identified as infallibility?
 
PRmerger said:
…]

If they were under Church authority, please proffer the document that details the directions in which they were to exterminate these good Christians.
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From the third canon of the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215:

*…] Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. …]
*
 
Bella92 said:
Soon as it can be shown a catholic did something bad, specially a Catholic pope, you’ll get the he wasn’t a real catholic lot out in force. That always happens. The pope probably believed he was doing what God wanted. Just goes to show there’s no such thing as infallibility because if the pope is infallible where morality is concerned he’d never have authorised this.
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You also get “show me the documents”…"show me something with the “exact words” you used such as “exterminate”. The information it available for all to read…but the “faithful” have a difficult time with some aspects of history which the church played a pivotal role.
 
Bella

**Mental reservation. Annulments for divorce. I’m sure there’s more but it’s 2am here and I’m going to bed. **

Well, I can’t answer your remarks until they are more fully developed as sentences rather than sentence fragments. Sleep well.
 
Publisher said:
You also get “show me the documents”…"show me something with the “exact words” you used such as “exterminate”.
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Well…yeah.

You don’t think that’s a valid request? Seriously?

I haven’t found a single document that says that Pope Innocent ordered the extermination of any group of people.

Yet you are asserting that he did.

Proof, please.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
From the third canon of the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215:

*…] Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. …]
*
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Please note here that the word “exterminate” does not mean to kill, as one exterminates pests, but to drive outside of the boundaries of said Catholic country.
 
PRmerger said:
Please note here that the word “exterminate” does not mean to kill, as one exterminates pests, but to drive outside of the boundaries of said Catholic country.
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Where does it say that in the document?

I think it’s clear that the French nobility didn’t interpret it that way.
 
PRmerger said:
Please note here that the word “exterminate” does not mean to kill, as one exterminates pests, but to drive outside of the boundaries of said Catholic country.
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It seems to me you agreed it meant “kill” when you took exception to another’s use of the word and insisted on an official source using that specific word. Now that the citation has been provided, it seems you’re coming up with an ad hoc redefinition of the word.

In any case, what good would it do the church to merely drive such dangerous heretics into the bosoms of surrounding Catholic countries?
 
cornbread_r2 said:
It seems to me you agreed it meant “kill” when you took exception to another’s use of the word and insisted on an official source using that specific word. Now that the citation has been provided, it seems you’re coming up with an ad hoc redefinition of the word.

In any case, what good would it do the church to merely drive such dangerous heretics into the bosoms of surrounding Catholic countries?
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Canon 18 of the document expressly forbids killing of anyone by any cleric, i.e., anyone holding an office in the Church. In fact, it even expressly forbids any clergy from testifying at a trial that would have the accused executed by civil authorities as a result.

*Canon 18
SUMMARY Clerics may neither pronounce nor execute a sentence of death. Nor may they act as judges in extreme criminal cases, or take part in matters connected with judicial tests and ordeals.

Text. No cleric may pronounce a sentence of death, or execute such a sentence, or be present at its execution. If anyone in consequence of this prohibition (hujusmodi occasions statuti) should presume to inflict damage on churches or injury on ecclesiastical persons, let him be restrained by ecclesiastical censure. Nor may any cleric write or dictate letters destined for the execution of such a sentence. Wherefore, in the chanceries of the princes let this matter be committed to laymen and not to clerics. Neither may a cleric act as judge in the case of the Rotarrii, archers, or other men of this kind devoted to the shedding of blood. No subdeacon, deacon, or priest shall practice that part of surgery involving burning and cutting. Neither shall anyone in judicial tests or ordeals by hot or cold water or hot iron bestow any blessing; the earlier prohibitions in regard to dueling remain in force.*

Clearly, in Canon 3, the word exterminate means something like eradicate or be rid of, since killing or the ordering of killing was expressly forbidden.
 
Could this recent discussion be the question of another thread or another forum, as it seems to be hijacking this one? It is a historical question rather than a philosophical one.
 
PR

The gray background on the quote feature makes it difficult to use. Poor eyesight. My apologies for the inconvenience. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
PR

The gray background on the quote feature makes it difficult to use. Poor eyesight. My apologies for the inconvenience. 😉
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same thing when ppl use the colour red to highlight text; it makes it very difficult to see for some of us - just a heads-up; there are obviously ways around it
 
Immorality with God?
Yes.
This place is a great example.

You should not condemn someone for not being a “practicing” Catholic.

For those who are not practicing, I don’t blame you. The Church is filled with lots of modern day Pharisees.

We go to Church for God, not for man.
Seek God on your own.
Become a desert monk in your own abode.
No envelopes or self-righteous people involved.
 
Fisha
**
Immorality with God?
Yes.
This place is a great example.

You should not condemn someone for not being a “practicing” Catholic.

For those who are not practicing, I don’t blame you. The Church is filled with lots of modern day Pharisees.**

It is unusual for a person to enter another person’s house and trash him and his family with insults.

Best be careful or you may be asked to leave. :mad:

So far you have posted 13 times. Is that your unlucky number?
 
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