Morality without God?

[ChaosKompf]

Tyrion

** A smoothly working society would derive its morals from the principle of reciprocity (which translates into the two versions of the golden rule). That is all that is needed. Do not harm others. Respect others. “The right of my fist ends where your nose begins”. No deity needed there. Reason is sufficient. And, of course, no “authority” is needed! **

But without God, there would be no reason for everybody to be reasonable. The man who says “The right of my fist is unlimited” cannot be challenged as immoral if his the power of his fist is unlimited. In that case, what good is an appeal to reason? Think Hitler and Mao, both creators of dominantly atheist regimes.

Morality has existed long before religion. The Code of Hammurabi, written in the 18th century B.C.E. which the OT (Old Testament) copied, such as if an equal is to break your arm, within the Code of Hammurabi, that you are legally able to break his arm (see OT laws regarding eye for an eye.) The Code of Hammurabi is 1800 BCE while Mosiac law is like 1400 BCE so the Code of Hammurabi has existed long before the Judaic cult was invented.

In regards to your little Godwins law card no two atheists are the same. How could you possibly say that Pol Pot could be like any other atheist? Judaic and Christian mythology HAVE RULES DICTATING PEOPLE to invade villages and rape the female population and kill off the men,

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

" If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Atheism has never promoted this. In fact atheism has pretty much said they don’t believe in a god(s.) Judaic and Christian mythology however demand that you give up your identity and worship god as the state (National Socialism) and if you refuse to you are sent to a concentration camp made out of fire.

----BOOK OF GENESIS—

In the book of Genesis god is pretty much promoting fascism as the only solution for peace. The symbol of the serpent around 2,050 BCE were used within ancient Mesopotamia to represent anthropomorphic qualities of chaos.[3] With this notion in place the Serpent in the OT represents chaos

Serpent = Chaos (in the Greek story of creation the god Chaos created everything from a formless void. This god was invented in 2000 BCE while Judaism 1400 BCE)

Elohim = fascism/the state/National Socialism/authoritarianism/totalitarianism (basically the god represents the state. In this story of Adam and Eve god gives out an order to not eat the fruit. Basically the story is telling us that knowledge is bad and that knowledge will cause chaos. Blind subversion to authority, as god’s character within the story, is not morality.)

Eve = woman

Adam = man

Garden of Eden = state of tranquility/utopian society

Fruit of knowledge = knowledge

Moral of the story? Knowledge will cause chaos. Worship god as the state (National Socialism.) This isn’t morality. With morality you need to be able to discern between good and bad, therefore the character god is a terrible role model for morality. Besides if you think about it gods authoritarian characteristics and the fact that it demands that you worship it as the state and then commands the Israelite armies to enslave the non-believers is very similar to how Nazism behaved. Nazism craved out of complicity as did the god of the OT.

I love when people use Godwins law when they have no idea what they are talking about. First two lines of Hitlers biography, Mein Kampf, Hitler notes his existence to an entity called Fate. Hitler says, “TODAY I consider it my good fortune that Fate de-signated Braunau on the Inn as the place of my birth.”[1] Hitler is talking about a god. Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic and never renounced his faith nor did any other Roman Catholic Nazis, nor did the Catholic church excommunicate any of them. Hitler argued many times in Mein Kampf that it was the will of Fate (god) that inspired him to create the “master race” (Aryans) and to kill the Jews, who Hitler believed were disloyal to the state of Germany during WWI. Hitler also argued that the Jews were ungrateful to “Fate” thus using that as a justification for genocide. Christianity has been making this argument for thousands of years and this hate speech Hitler advocated was promoted by people like Martin Luther in his book, On The Jews and Their Lies by which Martin Luther argues in Part XI, “Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.”[2] The stuff Hitler talked about was talked about by many Christian theologians thousands of years before.

1. archive.org/stream/meinkampf035176mbp/meinkampf035176mbp_djvu.txt
2. humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm
3. “The most troublesome of all serpents in Mesopotamian mythology are described in the Babylonian creation epic (the Enuma Elish)—those primeval “monster serpents” that constitute the forces of chaos in the primeval world of the gods.”

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=10&num=2&id=254

 

[ChaosKompf]

No. Our common law legal system and the philosophy of liberalism have nothing to do with any Abramic deity or religion. Judaism/Islam/Christianity all promote that you subject yourself to a god, or face internment in an otherworldly prison, like hell. If you are to read the Old Testament, particularly the story of creation, god specifically dictates Eve (woman) to not eat the fruit of knowledge. The Serpent convinces Eve to eat the fruit thus liberating her from the totalitarianistic nature of Elohim. Being able to discern between good and eve is the true morality that humans exemplify, BUT Elohim’s character within the bible tries to suppress the knowledge of good and evil thus indicative that god really wants loyalty rather than morality thus indicating that it just wants power which really isn’t moral at all.

Liberalism on the other hand teachers individuals that we have unalienable rights to things like speech, religion, the press. In the Bible god curses people for swearing in its name, for not attending sabbath, and destroying villages by which it deems as inferior.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, we’re talking about creation itself. I’m sure you’d agree that the evidence has to be reasonably high-ish. I can hardly say to myself: ‘Well, that seems good enough for me…’

Why can’t you?

Why can’t you say that, make an act of the will to believe it’s possible, then go from there?

Right now what you’re doing is saying, “I won’t believe until this standard of evidence here, insert arbitrary standard of evidence that you have for NO OTHER area of your life is met.”

Why?

 

[PRmerger]

There are enough examples of people sacrificing themselves (and others) for something they had been told and believed to be true.

Ok. So you’re not of the position that the resurrection was a hoax. But rather it was a misunderstanding?

People* thought they saw Jesus resurrected, but they didn’t actually* see him after he rose?

Let’s go with that, then.

Who did they actually see, then, Bradski?

Do I earn a video criticism? I like those…

Right now, this is what’s coming to my mind in response to your positing that these disciples were fooled into thinking they saw Jesus when it was actually a…what, exactly? Picture me doing this:



(But please note: I don’t always use the gifs for criticism. )

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Chaos
**
Morality has existed long before religion. The Code of Hammurabi, written in the 18th century B.C.E. which the OT (Old Testament) copied, such as if an equal is to break your arm, within the Code of Hammurabi, that you are legally able to break his arm (see OT laws regarding eye for an eye.) The Code of Hammurabi is 1800 BCE while Mosiac law is like 1400 BCE so the Code of Hammurabi has existed long before the Judaic cult was invented.**

Morality never existed before religion. The Jews traced their history back to Adam and Eve. That’s a lot farther back than Hammurabi. With Adam and Eve God conversed, and he required them to obey one simple moral law, or there would be consequences. That is the start of human morality … choosing to defy or obey God.

As to Hitler, you need to stop relying on atheist websites for the truth.

**First two lines of Hitlers biography, Mein Kampf, Hitler notes his existence to an entity called Fate. Hitler says, “TODAY I consider it my good fortune that Fate de-signated Braunau on the Inn as the place of my birth.”[1] Hitler is talking about a god. Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic and never renounced his faith nor did any other Roman Catholic Nazis, nor did the Catholic church excommunicate any of them. Hitler argued many times in Mein Kampf that it was the will of Fate (god) that inspired him to create the “master race” (Aryans) and to kill the Jews, who Hitler believed were disloyal to the state of Germany during WWI. **

To the contrary.

Elected to power in 1933, the votes against him were strongest in the dominantly Catholic sections of Germany.

Hitler left the Catholic Church while a young man. All the biographers agree that no truthful depiction of him as a Catholic in good standing from that point on can be found, though he sometimes lied in presenting himself as an agent of God. He hated the Jews, but he also hated the Christians. He honored the founding of the Nietzsche Archives (Nietzsche was the most infamous atheist of his time) by attending the dedication of the Archives. A photograph shows him present for the occasion. No self-respecting Catholic would have been caught dead at the dedication ceremony. google.com/search?q=hitler+photo+nietzsche+archives&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=DO4_Ub2bA87E2QW9t4G4Dg&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=601#imgrc=PV9LNKAccIan8M%3A%3BDTLyCN41tk2WQM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F4.bp.blogspot.com%252F-kgPapccl7uw%252FUPl4XLI8TLI%252FAAAAAAAATlI%252F-oH37LopJGw%252Fs1600%252Fhitler-next-to-a-bust-of-nietzsche.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpublicoccurrenc.blogspot.com%252F2013%252F01%252Fkarl-marx-wrote-his-doctoral.html%3B732%3B558

This is what Hitler said, as quoted by one of his faithful underlings:

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.”

See New Oxford Review February 2008 Review Excerpt by Anne Barbeau Gardiner

“First published in German in the mid-1950s, Christ in Dachau is a deeply moving account by Fr. John Lenz of the five years he spent in a concentration camp in Bavaria from 1940 to 1945. Perhaps the most striking aspect of his account is that it reveals how atheists of all stripes – criminals, socialists, communists, and SS agents – joined forces in Dachau to persecute Catholic priests.”

The conspiracy that failed to kill Hitler in 1944 was started by a Catholic German soldier, Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, who was executed by firing squad.

Learn some history, for God’s sake!

 

[ChaosKompf]

Ok. So you’re not of the position that the resurrection was a hoax. But rather it was a misunderstanding?

People* thought they saw Jesus resurrected, but they didn’t actually* see him after he rose?

Let’s go with that, then.

Who did they actually see, then, Bradski?

Right now, this is what’s coming to my mind in response to your positing that these
disciples were fooled into thinking they saw Jesus when it was actually a…what, exactly?

Erm the crucifixion of Yeshua ben Panthera is uncharacterized and has never happened before. Sure crucifixions did happen before the alleged existence of Yeshua (then again there is no evidence of his existence therefore it is safe to assume it didn’t exist) HOWEVER no crucifixtion went on like it did in the New Testament. Crucifixions were far more humiliating and brutal. Furthermore Romans didn’t have any sort of characteristics of exchanging prisoners. That is also uncharacterized for the Romans.

Furthermore Yeshua ben Panthera is not mentioned by any historian of his time. Josephus’s section within his book, Antiquities was forged by Christian interpolators and that little section within the Testimonium Flavinum is not accurate. No Pharisee Jewish man would say something like that (plus this is allegedly 30 years after the fact so I don’t get how Josephus would get this information.)

So all-in-all there is no historical evidence for the existence of Yeshua ben Panthera (the New Testament doesn’t count because it is a political document assembled after the 1st council of Nicea orchestrated by Emperor Constantine. The New Testament is a political document and hence is technically propaganda.)

 

[ChaosKompf]

Chaos
**
Morality has existed long before religion. The Code of Hammurabi, written in the 18th century B.C.E. which the OT (Old Testament) copied, such as if an equal is to break your arm, within the Code of Hammurabi, that you are legally able to break his arm (see OT laws regarding eye for an eye.) The Code of Hammurabi is 1800 BCE while Mosiac law is like 1400 BCE so the Code of Hammurabi has existed long before the Judaic cult was invented.**

Morality never existed before religion. The Jews traced their history back to Adam and Eve. That’s a lot farther back than Hammurabi. With Adam and Eve God conversed, and he required them to obey one simple moral law, or there would be consequences. That is the start of human morality … choosing to defy or obey God.

As to Hitler, you need to stop relying on atheist websites for the truth.

**First two lines of Hitlers biography, Mein Kampf, Hitler notes his existence to an entity called Fate. Hitler says, “TODAY I consider it my good fortune that Fate de-signated Braunau on the Inn as the place of my birth.”[1] Hitler is talking about a god. Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic and never renounced his faith nor did any other Roman Catholic Nazis, nor did the Catholic church excommunicate any of them. Hitler argued many times in Mein Kampf that it was the will of Fate (god) that inspired him to create the “master race” (Aryans) and to kill the Jews, who Hitler believed were disloyal to the state of Germany during WWI. **

To the contrary.

Elected to power in 1933, the votes against him were strongest in the dominantly Catholic sections of Germany.

Hitler left the Catholic Church while a young man. All the biographers agree that no truthful depiction of him as a Catholic in good standing from that point on can be found, though he sometimes lied in presenting himself as an agent of God. He hated the Jews, but he also hated the Christians. He honored the founding of the Nietzsche Archives (Nietzsche was the most infamous atheist of his time) by attending the dedication of the Archives. A photograph shows him present for the occasion. No self-respecting Catholic would have been caught dead at the dedication ceremony.

This is what Hitler said, as quoted by one of his faithful underlings:

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.”

See New Oxford Review February 2008 Review Excerpt by Anne Barbeau Gardiner

“First published in German in the mid-1950s, Christ in Dachau is a deeply moving account by Fr. John Lenz of the five years he spent in a concentration camp in Bavaria from 1940 to 1945. Perhaps the most striking aspect of his account is that it reveals how atheists of all stripes – criminals, socialists, communists, and SS agents – joined forces in Dachau to persecute Catholic priests.”

The conspiracy that failed to kill Hitler in 1944 was started by a Catholic German soldier, Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, who was executed by firing squad.

Learn some history, for God’s sake!

Why would Hitler attribute god to his existence and then claim that god told him to establish Aryan race as the “master race” if he was an atheist? That makes zero sense. If Hitler was an atheist he would not make references to Jesus’s crucifixtion during the Triumph of Will by stating that the German people had to make a “blood sacrifice” (Hitler was referring to the color red within the Nazi flag = sacrifice.) This is all religious symbolism here. Hitlers descent to Berlin is likened to Jesus’s ascent within the New Testament to Heaven. Hitler is pretty much saying that he is the messiah in the Triumph of Will. That is not an atheist. Plus Adolf Hitlers mentality to the Jews are pretty much how alot of theologians thought was a way to convert Jewish citizens throughout the past 2,000 years.

If you read up on Ancient Greece you will learn about the Dorian invasions which occurred around 2000 BCE (Judaism was founded around 1400 BCE) that the early Greek gods were inserted within Greece (Greek gods like Chaos, Kronos, Zeus etc.) If you read up on the Greek creation story you will discover that the Judaic story is almost identical in themes, characters, conflicts, plot devices, etc.

Greek Creation story begins with the god chaos creating the universe from a formless void, then little after Chaos (the omnipotent creator) creates the first generation of Titans, Titans give birth to Olympian gods, then the Olympian gods overthrow the Titans and send them to Tartarus (similar to the angel rebellion in the OT.) Then Prometheus is told by Zeus to create man. Zeus shapes man out of dirt, the goddess Athena breathes life into it (similar to Judaism.) Afterwards Prometheus gives fire to man (see Serpent and fruit of knowledge,) Prometheus cursed, Pandora created and told not to open the Pandora’s jar/box (pithos = greek for jar.)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Chaos
**
Furthermore Yeshua ben Panthera is not mentioned by any historian of his time. Josephus’s section within his book, Antiquities was forged by Christian interpolators and that little section within the Testimonium Flavinum is not accurate. No Pharisee Jewish man would say something like that (plus this is allegedly 30 years after the fact so I don’t get how Josephus would get this information.)**

If this nonsense is the extent of your scholarship, I think you will be given the boot by quite a few posters here. Do you really want to have such a short-lived Reign of Terror at CA?

This thread is not about whether Jesus lived or was crucified. If you want to start such a thread, go somewhere else and start one. But please leave this thread alone!!!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I see you are persistent in trying to destroy this thread. Please leave at once!

 

[ChaosKompf]

I see you are persistent in trying to destroy this thread. Please leave at once!

My apologies. I thought we were having a discussion? I don’t know what exactly I was doing that would indicate that I was allegedly destroying a thread.

 

[Bradski]

Why can’t you? Why can’t you say that, make an act of the will to believe it’s possible, then go from there?

Make it an act of will? I wasn’t sure that you’d agree that it was an act of will. As I believe it is with a lot of people (Pascall for example encouraged it). But I can’t do that. The evidence has to convince me and then I will automatically believe. One can’t decide to believe.

And I don’t set arbitrary levels of evidence. That seems just as absurd to me. This isn’t a science experiment where I will accept evidence if it reaches a probability factor of x% or where I can say it is possibly or probably or maybe true. The evidence has been presented to me ever since I was old enough to understand it. And if it had ever reached a point where I found I believed it, then I would be able to say I accepted the evidence. Automatically.

Ok. So you’re not of the position that the resurrection was a hoax. But rather it was a misunderstanding?

People reported, quite some years after the event, what they thought might have happened. What they thought was prophesied to happen. What they were told had happened. They wrote the story they wanted people to read (including themselves).

I’m sure you’d accept this in regard to any contemporary story. Why do you reduce your level of scepticism for something that happened two thousand years ago when people accepted that supernatural events occurred on a daily basis?

 

[PRmerger]

So all-in-all there is no historical evidence for the existence of Yeshua ben Panthera (the New Testament doesn’t count because it is a political document assembled after the 1st council of Nicea orchestrated by Emperor Constantine. The New Testament is a political document and hence is technically propaganda.)

I hope that you apply this same high level of demand for proof with all your history, Chaos?

Do you disbelieve in the existence of Genghis Khan as well?

What about Hannibal?

It might be fun to sit next to you at a cocktail party. Amusing to hear how you don’t believe in the existence of any ancient historical figure. For, of course, most of our historical characters have no verifiable proof they even lived.

 

[PRmerger]

People reported, quite some years after the event, what they thought might have happened.

Can you provide evidence for this? What people? Reported when?

No one reported Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday? Really?

 

[PRmerger]

Make it an act of will? I wasn’t sure that you’d agree that it was an act of will.

Yes. It is part of the deposit of our faith, Bradski, that faith is an act of the intellect and will.

This is why the Church has always considered the act of entrusting oneself to God to be a moment of fundamental decision which engages the whole person. In that act, the intellect and the will display their spiritual nature, enabling the subject to act in a way which realizes personal freedom to the full. It is not just that freedom is part of the act of faith: it is absolutely required. Indeed, it is faith that allows individuals to give consummate expression to their own freedom.–Fides et Ratio

 

[ChaosKompf]

I hope that you apply this same high level of demand for proof with all your history, Chaos?

Do you disbelieve in the existence of Genghis Khan as well?

What about Hannibal?

It might be fun to sit next to you at a cocktail party. Amusing to hear how you don’t believe in the existence of any ancient historical figure. For, of course, most of our historical characters have no verifiable proof they even lived.

That’s cute. I love how you think I would be a dissatisfaction unto a person just because I refuse to believe in your messiah. Your logic doesn’t make sense. Furthermore there is more proof of Genghis Khan than there is of Yeshua ben Panthera.

Please cite one document that was written by a HISTORIAN within the time period of the alleged existence of Yeshua ben Panthera. The bible is a propaganda device therefore doesn’t count.

 

[PRmerger]

Why do you reduce your level of scepticism for something that happened two thousand years ago when people accepted that supernatural events occurred on a daily basis?

Because I have a relationship with the people who told me Jesus rose from the dead. I “trust the veracity of those who” taught me.

Man must depend to a great extent on others as source of knowledge. He is unable to factually verify even a small part of his knowledge himself. Therefore, he must trust in the veracity of those who teach him. “This means that the human being – the one who seeks the truth – is also the one who lives by belief”–ibid

 

[PRmerger]

Furthermore there is more proof of Genghis Khan than there is of Yeshua ben Panthera.

How about you proffer this proof of Genghis Khan’s existence, Chaos.

Something written by him would be preferable, but I will accept first hand accounts of his deeds by contemporaries. (Or do you believe eyewitness accounts to not be reliable? I know some non-believers discount eyewitness accounts as not being a valid piece of evidence. If you are of this ilk, then you will have to resort to only something written by Genghis himself.)

 

[ChaosKompf]

How about you proffer this proof of Genghis Khan’s existence Chaos.

Something written by him would be preferable, but I will accept first hand accounts of his deeds by contemporaries. Thanks.

How about the fact that he founded an empire and had his son succeed in his stead by which prompted the decline of the Mongolian empire. Plus a number of Roman emperor’s confronted the Khans and even Genghis Khan himself, including Caesar, and the Khans teamed up with the Goths, Vandals, etc. to destroy Rome.

If Genghis Khan didn’t exist how did the Mongolian empire come to be?

 

[ChaosKompf]

How about you proffer this proof of Genghis Khan’s existence, Chaos.

Something written by him would be preferable, but I will accept first hand accounts of his deeds by contemporaries. (Or do you believe eyewitness accounts to not be reliable? I know some non-believers discount eyewitness accounts as not being a valid piece of evidence. If you are of this ilk, then you will have to resort to only something written by Genghis himself.)

Eye witness accounts can easily be falsified plus the New Testament was assembled for the express purpose of legalizing Christianity under Constantine. Even police investigations don’t rely on first eye witness accounts.

 

[OxygenMan]

How about the fact that he founded an empire and had his son succeed in his stead by which prompted the decline of the Mongolian empire. Plus a number of Roman emperor’s confronted the Khans and even Genghis Khan himself, including Caesar, and the Khans teamed up with the Goths, Vandals, etc. to destroy Rome.

If Genghis Khan didn’t exist how did the Mongolian empire come to be?

If Christ didn’t exist, how did the Christian religion come into being?