Morality without God?

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wittgenstein said:
I am simply stating a fact. Simply google “atheists crime rate.”
Also your uninformed and inaccurate ad hominum is not only rude but also a logical fallacy.
The person making a statement has nothing to do with the validity of that statement. It is a logical fallacy.
For example, here is an ad hominum fallacy.
  1. Manson is a liar.
  2. Manson said that 1+1=2
  3. Therefore 1+1 does not =2
    Manson’s character has nothing to do with the truth value of 1+1=2.
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I am quite aware that is an Ad Hominem fallacy. However your statement on the fact that Christians are immoral while Atheists are practical saints is invalid. You have made a statement without providing proof. I surely won’t provide any proof as the burden of proof falls on you (Another logical fallacy)
 
Response to post 140
See my post 138. While you were writing your post 140, I was clarifing my position. It is interesting that you thought I was saying that atheists are saints and Christians immoral. An extreme and unwarranted exaggeration to be sure.
True, you did not have the chance to read my clarification before posting 140.But even without my clarification post 140 is still an extreme exaggeration of my views.
I posted the fact that atheists have a low crime rate as a response to the many posts claiming that atheists live a life of moral degeneracy.
 
wittgenstein said:
Response to post 140
See my post 138. While you were writing your post 140, I was clarifing my position. It is interesting that you thought I was saying that atheists are saints and Christians immoral. An extreme and unwarranted exaggeration to be sure.
True, you did not have the chance to read my clarification before posting 140.But even without my clarification post 140 is still an extreme exaggeration of my views.
I posted the fact that atheists have a low crime rate as a response to the many posts claiming that atheists live a life of moral degeneracy.
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Well of course they do. They fear the objective hand of the Law. Key word there being “Objective”. They don’t want to do anything immoral because of the fact that they know that our society has consequences for crime. Something that it took from a Christian principle.
 
Response to post 139
I believe that animals are conscious (feel pain etc) and are not just machines. However,you are correct that they do not think like us ( we have language etc).
In response, I can only speak for myself,but when I do something good, I do not deliberate,check a list of what is wrong or right and if it is good then decide to do it. I simply do it. For example,once (when I was much younger and living in a bad part of town and in an apartment) my neighbour (female) was screaming. I went over there without thinking.
 
wittgenstein, it would be helpful if you clicked on the “quote” icon on the bottom right corner of the post to which you would like to respond.

It makes the flow of dialogue more convenient to follow.

Thanks.
 
Response to post 142
I do not think that every act an atheist does is a result of deliberating about reward and punishment. Similarly, I do not think that every moral decision a Christian makes is predicated on considerations of reward or punishment. Actually, for me, the considerations of reward and punishment have nothing to do with good or evil. Imagine a man that believes in God and the Bible. However,he only cares about his personal well being and profit. He reasons",if I do good I will recieve a huge reward and if I do evil I will recieve a huge punishment. I really do not care about other people but I do know what is in my best interest. So I will do good." Would you call that man spiritual? Would you call that man a Christian?
 
mymamamary said:
That still doesn’t explain why a man would die for his friend. Someone to whom he owes no relationship by blood. Mothers sure, but why friends? Perserving the human race? I don’t think so.
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Indeed.

And there is no atheistic explanation (nor, for that matter, any atheistic equivalent) to the ultimate type of sacrificial love: giving one’s life for a complete stranger, ala St. Maximilian Kolbe.

One has to wonder why there is no atheist who has volunteered to suffer and die out of love for a complete stranger.

The closest answer I’ve gotten, when I ask this of atheists, is a nebulous, “Well, there are atheists in the military.”

Military service, while honorable and virtuous, comes no where near the sacrificial love that can only be given by Christians.

If this isn’t so, where are the atheistic equivalents of St. Maximilian Kolbe?
 
Are you claiming that no atheist has ever sacrificed their life for someone that is not a family member? That there has never been an atheist that died for a cause?
Imagine those atheists that died for a cause without hope of an afterlife and its rewards.
Let me clarify. I am not saying that atheists are moraly superior. I am merely responding to your implied proposition that atheists are incapable of altruism or any sense of morality.
 
wittgenstein said:
Are you claiming that no atheist has ever sacrificed their life for someone that is not a family member?
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I don’t know. That’s what I’ve been asking for a while.

I would like an example of an atheist who has done a similar act of sacrificial love, in the manner of St. Maximilian Kolbe, for a stranger in which he made the ultimate sacrifice of his life.

Do you know of anyone who fits this category?
 
wittgenstein said:
I am merely responding to your implied proposition that atheists are incapable of altruism or any sense of morality.
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Altruism? Sure. Atheists can be altruistic. Heroic.

But I’m talking about agape. The highest form of love.

Only Christians seem to be capable of that.

But I’m open to looking at evidence that this may not be true. 🤷
 
wittgenstein

** Perhaps it is because atheists (in general) are more highly educated then theists. They are influenced by the atheistic academic culture. Because they are highly educated,they earn more and do not have to resort to crime. In other words, I am not saying that atheists are better people then theists. Or that atheists have a greater grasp of the truth. **

You’re just saying atheists are smarter than Christians … another cheap libel.

If there are fewer atheist criminals than Christian criminals, why is it that so few prisoners attend prison religious services? You would know this for a fact if you were in the prison ministry as I have been.

Prisoners tend not to self-identify as atheists, but rather as belonging to the religion of their parents, because they know instinctively that “atheist” on their record carries no weight with the parole board.
 
wittgenstein said:
Are you claiming that no atheist has ever sacrificed their life for someone that is not a family member? That there has never been an atheist that died for a cause?
Imagine those atheists that died for a cause without hope of an afterlife and its rewards.
Let me clarify. I am not saying that atheists are moraly superior. I am merely responding to your implied proposition that atheists are incapable of altruism or any sense of morality.
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I don’t think any atheist in Auschwitz took the place of a complete stranger like St. Kolbe did. Now of course, in terms of morality, we do or don’t do things because we love GOD, but hell also plays a factor in it. Atheism has neither the Love of GOD nor the fear of Hell to deter him/her.
 
Response to post 150 No! I am not saying that atheists are smarter then theists. Your extreme emotionalism is distorting your perception again. I said that perhaps going thru academia and its atheistic sympathies would make one more likely to be atheist. If one went thru the whole academic program (a doctorate for example) one because of long exposure to such an academic environment would (on average) develop sympathies for academia’s positions.
I realize that you view our debate as you vs some kind of infidal. That is an absurd and extreme position.
 
I just want to point out that altruism is indeed an evolutionnary trait and the very reason our specie has been so successful. In the “old” way, animals only think of themselves. They are alone and vulnerable. Altruism helps the group to stick together. If all members of the tribe are ready to sacrifice their lives for any other member, there is a strong sense of community which make the group very efficient. Scientists observed that altruism arises on its own when robots interact and are faced with challenges.

And it seems many of you here are thinking of atheism as a community. It may be true in America, I don’t know, but in many country, it’s just the belief there is no god, period. Most people don’t direct their life thinking of this absence of God, that’s what I think some of you don’t understand. There is no common atheist doctrine, there is no common atheism opinion except of “I don’t believe in God”. And there are people sacrificing themselves in Sweden too, or other quite atheist countries.
 
wittgenstein said:
No! I am not saying that atheists are smarter then theists. Your extreme emotionalism is distorting your perception again. I said that perhaps going thru academia and its atheistic sympathies would make one more likely to be atheist. If one went thru the whole academic program (a doctorate for example) one because of long exposure to such an academic environment would (on average) develop sympathies for academia’s positions.
I realize that you view our debate as you vs some kind of infidal. That is an absurd and extreme position.
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I never said anything of the sort. I took a Grade 12 university preparation course in Philosophy online. I loved it. I loved the atmosphere. It was a lot of fun to challenge the commonly held secularist Philosophies. I will obviously hope to pursue Philosophy deeper as it helps me better define my Faith rationally. I don’t believe that You are an Infidel, nothing of the sort. I do believe though that You do need to re-examine Theistic philosopy and see jut how rational it is.
 
Also just because I am defending atheists from the unjustified accusation that they are immoral does not mean that I think that theism is irrational. If you look at my other posts and threads (especially “Being”) you will find that I am deeply involved with Thomist philosophy and other Christian thought.
 
PRmerger said:
Where do they get their moral compass, if it’s not from society? What is the prompter that tells them, “Even though my society says that child sacrifice is fine, I think it’s wrong. And I know this because _______”
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As Thinking Sapien has so eloquently explained, it is a simple matter of empathy. Just fill the words ‘I am a father’ in your quote.

There was a discussion I read or saw recently where someone described an German soldier during the war who was responsible for taking children of Jews who had already been killed to be killed themselves. Because he had been, literally, indoctrinated with the idea that the Jews were worthless as people, he didn’t have any problem in doing it. Until a moment when a young girl walking alongside automatically reached up and took his hand and he automatically responded.

It didn’t matter if he was a Christian or an atheist because he didn’t act as either. He simply became a father rather than a someone doing an unpleasant job.
PRmerger said:
You’ll have to explain how evolution developed this moral code: no greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend. That, my friend, is counter-evolutionary. It’s anti-evolution. How do you explain that?
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I believe it started as being evolutionary. The mother fighting to the death to protect her young (the father less so in the wild). But we have developed moral systems that reward the brave and denigrates the coward. Just as it is in the wild, the strongest animal and the one who is prepared to risk all for domination becomes the leader. It has been the same in all societies. You didn’t get to lead the group by being the best looking.

Sometimes it is worse to not risk sacrificing your own safety rather than remaining safe. As we say: It’s the right thing to do. To such a point as we will react automatically in some situations when a cool head and a little thought would convince us otherwise.

To use Kolbe as an example, not to sacrifice himself would have been worse than living in what he must have felt would have been shame rather than ‘doing the right thing’. Religion can quite often get you to this point. To the extent that sometimes the person sacrificing himself is prepared to take a few others with him.
 
Atheists who claim that their morality is based on some moral code higher than their feelings are basing their morality on a lie and/or they’re fooling themselves, just like atheists might think theists do for basing their morality on an imaginary guy in the sky.

I said earlier that atheists have never built a successful society (I don’t count Communism or Nazism).

Atheist morality is the morality of the culture they inhabit minus the harder teachings, usually sex, marriage, and the care of undesirables.
 
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