Morality without God?

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Fomalhaut said:
Do YOU believe no atheist could ever give his own life to save a stranger ? That this is a purely christian behaviour ?
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Yes, I do believe that no atheist could ever give his own life to save a stranger out of love. This is a purely Christian behavior because it requires supernatural love, not just natural love.

I think atheists can be heroic. I think they can be altruistic. I think they can even be a soldier who sacrifices his life.

But that’s not the same as love. Agape love.

Now, if you are positing that the above is wrong, show me.

I am open to the evidence.

Please know that I have been asking this question on this forum for a lonngggg time and no one has ever been able to give me the name of an atheist who has given his life out of love for a complete stranger, in the manner of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

Curious that many atheists who demand evidence for God will suddenly become “The Credible Atheist” who insists that this phantom atheistic Kolbe must exist somewhere in the universe. He just has to! Because I want him to!

As for the Christian side:
In July 1941 a man from Kolbe’s barracks vanished, prompting SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl Fritzsch, the deputy camp commander, to pick 10 men from the same barracks to be starved to death in Block 13 (notorious for torture), in order to deter further escape attempts. (The man who had disappeared was later found drowned in the camp latrine.) One of the selected men, Franciszek Gajowniczek, cried out, lamenting his family, and Kolbe volunteered to take his place.

During the time in the cell he led the men in songs and prayer. After three weeks of dehydration and starvation, only Kolbe and three others were still alive. Finally he was murdered with an injection of carbolic acid. source: ibid

Name of the atheist who volunteered to die in someone’s place, please.
 
I try to be altruistic because I’m inspired by the actions of water buffaloes.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes, I do believe that no atheist could ever give his own life to save a stranger out of love. This is a purely Christian behavior because it requires supernatural love, not just natural love.

I think atheists can be heroic. I think they can be altruistic. I think they can even be a soldier who sacrifices his life.

But that’s not the same as love. Agape love.

Now, if you are positing that the above is wrong, show me.

I am open to the evidence.

Please know that I have been asking this question on this forum for a lonngggg time and no one has ever been able to give me the name of an atheist who has given his life out of love for a complete stranger, in the manner of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

Curious that many atheists who demand evidence for God will suddenly become “The Credible Atheist” who insists that this phantom atheistic Kolbe must exist somewhere in the universe. He just has to! Because I want him to!

As for the Christian side:
In July 1941 a man from Kolbe’s barracks vanished, prompting SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl Fritzsch, the deputy camp commander, to pick 10 men from the same barracks to be starved to death in Block 13 (notorious for torture), in order to deter further escape attempts. (The man who had disappeared was later found drowned in the camp latrine.) One of the selected men, Franciszek Gajowniczek, cried out, lamenting his family, and Kolbe volunteered to take his place.

During the time in the cell he led the men in songs and prayer. After three weeks of dehydration and starvation, only Kolbe and three others were still alive. Finally he was murdered with an injection of carbolic acid. source: ibid

Name of the atheist who volunteered to die in someone’s place, please.
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We have different beliefs: you think what can make someone give his life for someone else comes from Christianity, I believe it comes from the human heart, and that an atheist can exhibit this behavior. Your claim can’t be proved because it is limited by induction, mine theoretically can be, to a certain extent, by providing an example. But there are not a lot of atheists, and as I said, if one sacrifice his life to save someone else, he won’t be remembered as an atheist, but as a hero, period. What if I tell you people who like free Jazz are unable to die in someone’s place, christian or not ? That liking such a messy music show they have disturbed mind, and that I was asking you to provide an example or else disagreeing with me would be blind faith ? Do you see the problem ? How on earth would you find such an example ? On the contrary, Kolbe became a saint, so his story was told an retold as the story of a christian.

As I said, I’m not a gnostic atheist, I don’t think absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Don’t be so pedantic with me.
John Savage:
I try to be altruistic because I’m inspired by the actions of water buffaloes.
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Who isn’t ? 😃
 
PRmerger said:
Ohmygoodness, folks!

No one is saying that atheists can’t be helpful. Or nice. Or kind. Or help little old ladies across the street.
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Indeed, Not even me nor those in the description of the reoccurring experience that I’ve provided. So I’m not sure why you’ve given this response.
PRmerger said:
This is the most faith-based assertion I’ve read on this thread.
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I think you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve typed.
PRmerger said:
I just hope that you never object to a Believer making faith-based assertions of her own.

You now realize that you live your life based on faith in something with no evidence.

At least Believers believe because of evidence. You may say it’s not sufficient to convince you, but no atheist would deny that there aren’t any arguments proffered for God’s existence.
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I’ll take note that you’ve stated this, but it doesn’t seem to be related to the message to which you are responding.
 
If morality is inbred, like that of a water-buffalo, why do we have to discuss it? Teach it? Have taxes?
 
I’m not surprised that an atheist puts human morality on the same plane as water buffalo morality. 😉
 
Fomalhaut said:
We have different beliefs: you think what can make someone give his life for someone else comes from Christianity, I believe it comes from the human heart,
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The Christian ethos does not create a dichotomy between these two.

And please note: we are not talking about altruism, or heroism, or giving one’s life for another.

We are talking about sacrificial love.

No atheist can do this.
and that an atheist can exhibit this behavior. Your claim can’t be proved because it is limited by induction,
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Fair enough. I haven’t attempted to prove my claim.

I have asked you to disprove it by providing me with name of an atheist who has offered sacriificial love ala Maximilian Kolbe.

So far what has been provided by non-believers on this thread is similar to exactly what atheists find so distasteful about Christians: the paradigm of “I know he exists because I want him to exist!”

And I am enjoying this immensely. I always do.

It’s fun to take the atheistic side here and offer the same skepticism. 🙂

I’ll believe that this Phantom Atheistic Kolbe (PAK) exists when you can offer me proof of his existence.

Not simply arguments like, “I know that he should exist because I’ve experienced it!”

That doesn’t cut it when Christians say it to atheists.

So I hope you’ll understand when I say that I can’t accept that argument from you.
 
I think it’s best to talk about society as a whole, not individuals. Any individual atheist can have some belief that prompts him to do whatever, good or bad. Even then, we should probably just compare similar societies or the same society at different time periods.

We might also distinguish between spur-of -the-moment actions and deliberate moral action, like Kolbe.

I happen to know a formerly religious atheist who told me he intervened in a robbery at personal risk. So, there.
PRmerger said:
The Christian ethos does not create a dichotomy between these two.

And please note: we are not talking about altruism, or heroism, or giving one’s life for another.

We are talking about sacrificial love.

No atheist can do this.

Fair enough. I haven’t attempted to prove my claim.

I have asked you to disprove it by providing me with name of an atheist who has offered sacriificial love ala Maximilian Kolbe.

So far what has been provided by non-believers on this thread is similar to exactly what atheists find so distasteful about Christians: the paradigm of “I know he exists because I want him to exist!”

And I am enjoying this immensely. I always do.

It’s fun to take the atheistic side here and offer the same skepticism. 🙂

I’ll believe that this Phantom Atheistic Kolbe (PAK) exists when you can offer me proof of his existence.

Not simply arguments like, “I know that he should exist because I’ve experienced it!”

That doesn’t cut it when Christians say it to atheists.

So I hope you’ll understand when I say that I can’t accept that argument from you.
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PRmerger said:
I’ll believe that this Phantom Atheistic Kolbe (PAK) exists when you can offer me proof of his existence.
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And I trust that no atheist will find fault when I offer these criteria for the evidence of this PAK. They are taken from the criteria that atheists demand when in dialogue with Christians regarding evidence for God/Jesus.
  • Evidence of the PAK’s atheism, in his own writings
  • Eyewitness accounts of the sacrificial act by the PAK
  • Manuscripts of this event written within 10 years of the PAK’s existence. 4 of them would be nice.
  • Proof of authorship of these manuscripts
  • Corroboration of all of these texts, with a point-by-point correspondence, with no differences whatsoever. That is, if one text says that it was 3 in the afternoon, and the other says that it was before evening, those would be discounted
  • Proof of authorship’s relationship with the PAK
  • Corroboration from non-atheistic texts of this event
  • Proof that this is not a legend taken from an ancient myth of an atheist who died for another
Sound fair?
 
PRmerger said:
And I trust that no atheist will find fault when I offer these criteria for the evidence of this PAK. They are taken from the criteria that atheists demand when in dialogue with Christians regarding evidence for God/Jesus.
  • Evidence of the PAK’s atheism, in his own writings
  • Eyewitness accounts of the sacrificial act by the PAK
  • Manuscripts of this event written within 10 years of the PAK’s existence. 4 of them would be nice.
  • Proof of authorship of these manuscripts
  • Corroboration of all of these texts, with a point-by-point correspondence, with no differences whatsoever. That is, if one text says that it was 3 in the afternoon, and the other says that it was before evening, those would be discounted
  • Proof of authorship’s relationship with the PAK
  • Corroboration from non-atheistic texts of this event
  • Proof that this is not a legend taken from an ancient myth of an atheist who died for another
Sound fair?
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I think over the years you transformed into a debate war-machine directed at gnostic atheists. You are directing all your firepower towards… No one here. I said I don’t have an example. What’s the point of these rules ? I admit I can’t prove my claim, and I never criticized you for believing in God. So my advice would be to chill out.
 
John_Savage said:
I happen to know a formerly religious atheist who told me he intervened in a robbery at personal risk. So, there.
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And I once read of an atheist who risked life and limb to rescue a poor little kitty from a tree.😛
 
Fomalhaut said:
II said I don’t have an example
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Excellent.

So you believe something based on faith. You have no evidence for the existence of the PAK, yet you believe she exists.

I don’t have a problem with that, Fomalhaut. :nope:

I just hope you proffer the same generosity with Believers who also believe things on faith.

And, I might add, we have a whole lot more evidence in our arsenal than you do for the existence of the PAK. 🤷
 
Who said we don’t have evidence? We don’t have direct evidence of a specific person who was an atheist and who sacrificed herself for the sake of a stranger. But we have lots of evidence that people sometimes do this. That is prima facie evidence that some of those people are atheists, in the same way that it’s prima facie evidence that some of them are left-handed.

Sure, if self-sacrifice requires “supernatural love,” and if “supernatural love” requires theism, then it will turn out that there are no such atheists. But until you give us some reason to think either of these things, we have at least some evidence that atheists will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love, in the same way that we have some evidence that left-handed people will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love.
 
Eleve said:
Who said we don’t have evidence? We don’t have direct evidence of a specific person who was an atheist and who sacrificed herself for the sake of a stranger. But we have lots of evidence that people sometimes do this. That is prima facie evidence that some of those people are atheists, in the same way that it’s prima facie evidence that some of them are left-handed.

Sure, if self-sacrifice requires “supernatural love,” and if “supernatural love” requires theism, then it will turn out that there are no such atheists. But until you give us some reason to think either of these things, we have at least some evidence that atheists will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love, in the same way that we have some evidence that left-handed people will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love.
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If someone comes to you and say “I believe there are no left-handed stuffer”, the discussion would be approximately the same. The person has, for some reason, beliefs that makes him think that being left-handed makes you physically unable to stuff animals. No matter how strange the argument seems to you, you’re going to have a hard time proving the person false. Simply because:
1/ Induction is limited: statistics give you a very good probability, never a certainty. To actually prove something you need a deductive reasoning: here is a left-handed stuffer, so they exist
2/ Left-handed people AND stuffer are quite limited population groups, and to find the intersection is very difficult, if not practically impossible. (Well, except if you call all the stuffers in the phonebook to ask the question, but you get the point)
 
Eleve said:
Who said we don’t have evidence? We don’t have direct evidence of a specific person who was an atheist and who sacrificed herself for the sake of a stranger. But we have lots of evidence that people sometimes do this. That is prima facie evidence that some of those people are atheists, in the same way that it’s prima facie evidence that some of them are left-handed.

Sure, if self-sacrifice requires “supernatural love,” and if “supernatural love” requires theism, then it will turn out that there are no such atheists. But until you give us some reason to think either of these things, we have at least some evidence that atheists will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love, in the same way that we have some evidence that left-handed people will sometimes exhibit sacrificial love.
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Name, please. References as above for this alleged atheistic equivalent of Kolbe.

Otherwise, you have not demonstrated a single thing, except posturing.

Seriously, folks? You don’t see that asking for evidence of the same degree that is demanded by non-believers to be a quid pro quo?

Is there not a single atheist of integrity here who is going to cede my point: atheists who claim that there’s an atheistic equivalent to Kolbe are relying on faith in his existence? No? No one?
 
The fact is that the water buffaloes acted altruistically. If we use them as an example of altruism or not is superfluous to our discussion.
What a subject looks like is also unrelated to the question,is that subject’s behaviour altruistic.
 
Is
wittgenstein said:
The fact is that the water buffaloes acted altruistically. If we use them as an example of altruism or not is superfluous to our discussion.
What a subject looks like is also unrelated to the question,is that subject’s behaviour altruistic.
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If our altruism is natural, then we don’t have to encourage it in our children.It’ll. Just happen.
 
Is anybody here aware of any atheist organization that has ever altruistically condemned the killing of the unborn, or that has ever altruistically sponsored adoption agencies, or that has ever altruistically built shelters for the homeless or soup kitchens for the hungry or medical clinics in far away lands for undernourished and diseased children? I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how atheists prove their altruism beyond saving treed kittens.
 
Bradski said:
As Thinking Sapien has so eloquently explained, it is a simple matter of empathy. Just fill the words ‘I am a father’ in your quote.
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Sure. Empathy is a human characteristic.

But when there is a moral choice to be made between what society says is moral and what a father may decide, then it is to his conscience that he is deferring.

And the moral man ought never disobey his conscience.

That is something we may agree upon, yes?
 
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