Morality without God?

[PRmerger]

Maybe my threshold for believing in God is higher, because belief in God is very consequential while belief in a self-sacrificing atheist hardly seems to mean anything at all (in the same way that believing water is necessary for survival, say, is more consequential than believing that there is at least one red bicycle in Cuba).

There seems to me, with all due respect, to be a bit of sour grapes going on here.

“It’s really not that important to me.”

Sure. I get that.

But the (ahem) evidence that you believe it to be of at least some importance is manifested in how much energy you have spent on this thread.

It appears that you do indeed have some investment in this argument. More than whether they have red bicycles in Cuba (they do!)

In fact, I argue that you have more investment in this argument than you do for God’s existence, and you say so right here.

So it’s curious to me why you have such a faith-filled assertion regarding something that is of relatively great import to you. “The PAK exists! I know he does!”

But an evidence-only demand for God’s existence.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Response to post 255
I am using a tablet and cannot post sites.

There are ways. What kind of tablet?

 

[wittgenstein]

Response to post 258
OK, I will provisionally accept (in other words my point is still valid if only hundreds sacrificed themselves. The point I was addressing is the extreme proposition that not even a single atheist ever acted altruistically. I still believe that millions of Communists willingly sacrificed their lives. But the number is superfluous to the point) that millions did not sacrifice their lives.
How about the Russian revolution? When the Bolsheviks were still a tiny party,were those that faught still compelled? OK, you might claim that there was not a single original Bolshevik that faught that was an atheist, but that would go against what almost every historian agrees on.

 

[John_Savage]

Some points:

On Stalin:

1. Stalin allowed the Orthodox Church to make a reappearance when he found it useful for morale. Maybe it encouraged soldiers to sacrifice.
2. Communism has sometimes been called a secular eschatalogical religion.

Let’s try to establish some things we can agree or disagree with. I agree with the following statements:

1. Some atheists have sacrificed themselves.
2. Very few of those do it for atheism.
3. Some do it probably because of societal momentum.
4. Religious people probably sacrifice more.
5. This is probably because they believe that their sacrifice will be rewarded. To me it makes sense that one’s belief system informs one’s behavior.

If atheists don’t agree with 4 and 5, then they’re saying that believers don’t really believe what they’re selling, in which case nobody’s really deluded (you can’t have it both ways).

 

[wittgenstein]

Response to post 263
Especially point 5
But that is not altruism. An action based on reward or punishment is based on a concern for one’s self.

 

[mymamamary]

I think that evolution can be reconciled with theism. Actually, I think that (if one knows otherwise tell me) the Catholic church does not reject evolution.
For example, evolution is a dialectic (preditor vs prey). Dialectic is a rational process. Evolution can be seen as revealing the mind of God in operation. God is immanent and transcendent. Physics can resolve this paradox thru multi dimensions. For example, a 3 dimensional object transcends a 2 dimensional slice of it,while being totally present in that slice.Evolution seen from a more realistic perspective (space-time) loses its bloody in tooth and claw image (which was never the primary message of evolution. Evolution emphasizes cooperation ) and reveals itself as more mind like then matter like.

The Catholic Church says that Theistic evolution is compatible with the Faith. This was decided years ago…

 

[mymamamary]

Response to post 263
Especially point 5
But that is not altruism. An action based on reward or punishment is based on a concern for one’s self.

As its supposed to. The Church never outrighted rejected personal concern. In fact, we have a duty to be self concerned. However, that self concern cannot be selfish me, me , me. It has to be healthy and balanced with selflessness.

 

[Bradski]

Yeah–nothing at all that she has written regarding her atheism came up.

I can’t believe she was an atheist until I see evidence of her first person narrative.

They had never met people like us, and didn’t quite trust us.** I guess they were afraid of heathens, or pagans.** We had a few families like that, that had fled Poland or Germany in '39, and stayed with us just a short while. The religious groups had their own network and they would come and go without us knowing who they were, where they were from, or where they were going. humboldt.edu/rescuers/book/Strobos/TinaStory3.html

Religion was not a factor. We’re atheists. My mother was a very militant atheist. My grandmother was even more militant. humboldt.edu/rescuers/book/Strobos/TinaStory7.html

We have a trifecta. Maybe we can now move on…

 

[mymamamary]

First let me say that we are talking about altruism. We are not talking about the validity of the cause one sacrifices one’s life for. We are only asking if an atheist ever sacrificed his own life for something not his life. Millions of Communists sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis.

Out of self concern and to advance destructive propoganda. It was all a big power struggle. Nothing out of love in that.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

We have a trifecta. Maybe we can now move on…

I doubt it, as this is starting to look very much like the same conversation from the thread “Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?” from last year. But let’s see what happens…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski

If you are asking why people don’t set up organisations that help others that are not specifically religious, then that’s not a problem. Medicins sans Frontieres is one that immediately springs to mind. As is the Red Cross. And the Hollows Foundation. People don’t need a religious reason for helping others. Claiming that there are no specifically atheist organisations seems a little odd. Like asking where are all the humanitarian organisations made up of people who don’t believe in UFOs.

It’s not odd at all. I’m not saying atheist organization should do the kind of things Christian organizations do by way of altruism. All I’m pointing out is that atheism in and of itself offers no moral imperative to be altruistic the way Christianity is. This ties in with the question of morality without God. Christianity offers a moral imperative that is binding upon Christians. Atheism offers no moral imperative, binding or not-binding. Hence, though there are many atheist organizations, and though many atheists claim they are morally superior to Christians (not to mention somewhat brighter) they are relatively inactive or ineffectual in the realm of altruism.

Morality is not merely “Thou shalt not.” It is also “Thou shalt.” Neither exists in the atheist realm. Each atheist is, as it were, left to invent the moral wheel on his own. It can be done, yes, but at what a cost to the individual and to society!

 

[Eleve]

In fact, I argue that you have more investment in this argument than you do for God’s existence, and you say so right here.

All I say there is that this argument is on topic, while God’s existence is not. No thinking person could deny that it would be very important if God were to exist.

wittgenstein: Darwin or no Darwin, Kant’s view is not that maxims are immoral when it would be a bad thing to universalize them.

 

[Bradski]

Christianity offers a moral imperative that is binding upon Christians.

No it doesn’t. If it did, every Christian would follow all the moral ‘rules’ all the time. But we both know that you make a choice every time the opportunity comes up to make a moral decision. If not, you are the most perfectly moral person on the planet. Congratulations.

Kill to protect? Give some of your money or most of it? Have sex purely for pleasure? Steal to feed your kids? Give your life in place of the man who murdered your wife?

Are these scenarios detailed anywhere? Hardly. So you have to make your own mind up about them just as I do. And you’d have any given group of Christians giving different answers to each question. I know that you wouldn’t claim that you were always right so how do you know? Is God giving different instructions to each of you? How do** I** know which one of you is right?

Anyone with any sense of the real world knows that there is rarely any right or wrong answer to any given question and likewise there is no way you can tell a persons religion or lack of it from his answer.

 

[PRmerger]

They had never met people like us, and didn’t quite trust us.** I guess they were afraid of heathens, or pagans.** We had a few families like that, that had fled Poland or Germany in '39, and stayed with us just a short while. The religious groups had their own network and they would come and go without us knowing who they were, where they were from, or where they were going. humboldt.edu/rescuers/book/Strobos/TinaStory3.html

Religion was not a factor. We’re atheists. My mother was a very militant atheist. My grandmother was even more militant. humboldt.edu/rescuers/book/Strobos/TinaStory7.html

We have a trifecta. Maybe we can now move on…

Excellent!

I acknowledge this woman’s atheism.

So now let’s move on to eyewitness accounts.

Citations, please.

 

[Bradski]

Excellent!

I acknowledge this woman’s atheism.

So now let’s move on to eyewitness accounts.

Citations, please.

Perhaps leading to a stat dec, dna verification, the woman’s next of kin’s video deposition and the names, addresses and blood type of everyone she helped.

Berger, Joseph. “A Believer in Heroism, to Jews’ Lasting Gratitude,” The New York Times, October 16, 2009. Accessed October 28, 2011 nytimes.com/2009/10/17/nyregion/17metjournal.html.

Bloemgarten, Salvador. Henri Polack: A Jew and A Dutchman. Jerusalem: Institute for Research on Dutch Jewry, 1984.

“Holocaust Personal Stories: Aid and Escape, Tina Strobes,” United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, accessed October 24, 2011, ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/phistories/phi_rescue_individuals1_uu.htm

Land-Weber, Ellen. To Save a Life: Stories of Holocaust Rescue. University of Illinois Press, 2006.
Additional Links for More Information:

1992 Audio and Transcript of Interview: ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/phistories/viewmedia/phi_fset.php?MediaId=2961

Dutch Resistance Museum: www.verzetsmuseum.org.

General Holocaust Information: ushmm.org/

Holocaust Survivors: holocaustsurvivors.org/

C’mon, PR. Any reasonable person would accept this and move on.

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps leading to a stat dec, dna verification, the woman’s next of kin’s video deposition and the names, addresses and blood type of everyone she helped.

Berger, Joseph. “A Believer in Heroism, to Jews’ Lasting Gratitude,” The New York Times, October 16, 2009. Accessed October 28, 2011 nytimes.com/2009/10/17/nyregion/17metjournal.html.

Bloemgarten, Salvador. Henri Polack: A Jew and A Dutchman. Jerusalem: Institute for Research on Dutch Jewry, 1984.

“Holocaust Personal Stories: Aid and Escape, Tina Strobes,” United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, accessed October 24, 2011, ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/phistories/phi_rescue_individuals1_uu.htm

Land-Weber, Ellen. To Save a Life: Stories of Holocaust Rescue. University of Illinois Press, 2006.
Additional Links for More Information:

1992 Audio and Transcript of Interview: ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/phistories/viewmedia/phi_fset.php?MediaId=2961

Dutch Resistance Museum: www.verzetsmuseum.org.

General Holocaust Information: ushmm.org/

Holocaust Survivors: holocaustsurvivors.org/

C’mon, PR. Any reasonable person would accept this and move on.

LOL!

I am doing nothing more, and nothing less, than using the atheistic paradigm here.

While I can understand your dismay, I am getting a great big chuckle out of it.

You do see why I am doing this, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

I doubt it, as this is starting to look very much like the same conversation from the thread “Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?” from last year. But let’s see what happens…

This is, indeed, one of my faves. I absolutely love the Credulous Atheist arguments that are presented–so faith-filled! So credulous!

It ought to give any thinking, noble atheist pause for how hard he is on Believers, for how much evidence he demands for God’s existence, yet, peculiarly, is so credulous on so many other areas.

My other fave is to ask if any atheist ever demands evidence for the pilot’s skills in whom he entrusts his life.

The dialogue that ensues is quite predictable, but it also ought to give any thinking, noble atheist pause about how faith-filled he really is.

 

[PRmerger]

C’mon, PR. Any reasonable person would accept this and move on.

As I have said, I am open to the evidence.

This has been the mantra of the atheists on this forum, too. “I am open to the evidence for God’s existence. So far, though, not convincing.”

Me, too. I am open to the evidence for the PAK’s existence. So far, though, not convincing.

I am waiting to see where the noble atheistic doctor volunteers to die for one of her fellow Jewish countrymen…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski

No it doesn’t. If it did, every Christian would follow all the moral ‘rules’ all the time. But we both know that you make a choice every time the opportunity comes up to make a moral decision. If not, you are the most perfectly moral person on the planet. Congratulations.

We are bound to pay taxes. Some people evade their taxes. That does not mean they are not bound.

**Anyone with any sense of the real world knows that there is rarely any right or wrong answer to any given question and likewise there is no way you can tell a persons religion or lack of it from his answer. **

Generally speaking, one can tell a Mother Teresa from an Adolf Hitler. If one can’t … one would be morally obtuse.

 

[John_Savage]

What we can do is compare people who go to church with those who don’t. Controlling for other factors, that should settle the influence of religion in any behavior. Facts, not talking points.

From the frantic rush to prove altruism and self-sacrifice, I gather most atheists like altruism and sacrifice and want to encourage those two qualities. Sometimes atheists mock people who sacrifice themselves for their family or country or chastity. We’re Soviet soldiers fools or heroes? Maybe some sacrifice is good?

If so, how would you encourage sacrifice and altruism?

Citations, please.

I would like evidence of her atheism, first. Something she has written.

No it doesn’t. If it did, every Christian would follow all the moral ‘rules’ all the time. But we both know that you make a choice every time the opportunity comes up to make a moral decision. If not, you are the most perfectly moral person on the planet. Congratulations.

Kill to protect? Give some of your money or most of it? Have sex purely for pleasure? Steal to feed your kids? Give your life in place of the man who murdered your wife?

Are these scenarios detailed anywhere? Hardly. So you have to make your own mind up about them just as I do. And you’d have any given group of Christians giving different answers to each question. I know that you wouldn’t claim that you were always right so how do you know? Is God giving different instructions to each of you? How do** I** know which one of you is right?

Anyone with any sense of the real world knows that there is rarely any right or wrong answer to any given question and likewise there is no way you can tell a persons religion or lack of it from his answer.