Morality without God?

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Evil is what people say when they wish to distinguish an ‘evil act’ from a ‘human act’ it is a way of absolving themselves from the idea that humans do abhorrent acts.
Nonsense. It is not human acts that are evil, it is inhuman acts that are. Humans only do abhorrent acts when they have become less than human.

Don’t tell me that chopping up a human fetus and disposing of it is a “human act.” It isn’t. It is inhuman, but the fact that some humans don’t recognize that it is means that some aspect of their humanity has been compromised.
 
Yes. As do I. I don’t believe that any 1st century Jew would have understood the prophesies to be about Jesus Christ.
So the gospel writers mentioned that prophesies had been fulfilled without believing that they had. What do you make of that?
 
Good morning Senor (I thought you were female? it must be the month april not the name?) - The Love of God, the Grace of God and Heaven is freedom. The choice of God by any human is freedom.
What if you just don’t fancy the Catholic God and wish to go down a road less travelled.
 
Nonsense. It is not human acts that are evil, it is inhuman acts that are. Humans only do abhorrent acts when they have become less than human.

Don’t tell me that chopping up a human fetus and disposing of it is a “human act.” It isn’t. It is inhuman, but the fact that some humans don’t recognize that it is means that some aspect of their humanity has been compromised.
You are not making sense, or you don’t understand. I am referring to acts which humans do - however you characterise the acts, they are done by humans - and that is what I am referring to.

Humans can’t become ‘less than human’ again that is a cop out of responsibility
 
april

**My comment is why is there not a third option - So God or Hell or live a good life with neither. **

Obviously, if there is a God, you cannot live a good life without choosing God over Satan.

Satan wants us to believe there is no God. He also consoles us with the notion, if we really want to have this notion, that we can live a good life without God.
I though Satan was one of God’s favourites - and did god not create Satan?
 
There are only two choices because the choice is between what exists (good) and what does not. Or as Sartre held, being and nothingness. In the case of moral beings who with willful intent deprive being of fullness and reduce it to less than potential or to nothingness, we have evil as a possibility. There are two choices because metaphysically there are only two possibilities: existence and non-existence.

Another way to see it is as a dichotomy between truth (what is) and falsity (what is not). There might exist degrees of truth value. Some things might be partly true, but there likewise exist degrees of evil. Some things might be evil to a lesser degree than others, but at the extremes are being and nothingness. Goodness (pure actuality or fullness of being) and evil (the privation of goodness.)

What you are setting up is a false dichotomy because you refuse to see God as identical with fullness of being or Goodness itself, but choose instead to forge your own reality by defining good as you will it to be.
I can’t forge my own reality. That is impossible. I am old fashioned in that the Catholic God seems to be nasty piece of work - killing Egyptians for example.
 
So the gospel writers mentioned that prophesies had been fulfilled without believing that they had. What do you make of that?
Oh, I didn’t say that, Bradski!

They mentioned the prophesies because they knew Jesus had been truly Resurrected.
Not they read the prophesies and then decided, “Let’s pretend that this happened to that Jesus guy!”

You have it exactly backwards.
 
april

**I can’t forge my own reality. That is impossible. ** But without God, that’s what you have to do … with some help from the devil.😉

I am old fashioned in that the Catholic God seems to be nasty piece of work - killing Egyptians for example.

Or, for example, saving the Jews from slavery to the Egyptians?

Was that a nasty piece of work?

Was it a nasty piece of work to die on the cross for our sins? 🤷
 
You said earlier:
I don’t believe that any 1st century Jew would have understood the prophesies to be about Jesus Christ.
So they wouldn’t have understood the prophesies to be about the resurection. They would have had no knowledge of that. There would have been no connection they could have made from the OT prophesies and Jesus. So I confirmed that:
So the gospel writers mentioned that prophesies had been fulfilled without believing that they had. What do you make of that?
They mentioned the prophesies and tied them into the resurrection when you have said that you don’t believe they could have done that. Now you say:
Oh, I didn’t say that.They mentioned the prophesies because they knew Jesus had been truly Resurrected.

Why did they mention the prophesies when you clearly believe they couldn’t have understood the prophesies to be about Jesus?

Incidentally, when I originally mentioned the prophesies, you wanted me to quote chapter and verse. It sounded like you thought I was just throwing that in to bolster my argument without there actually being any prophesies. Or maybe you were just making sure I did know about them…

It sounded then like you thought they were bulldust. It still sounds like that. But the Gospel writers still made claim to them. Did they do a bit of reverse prophesying? Did they go back and look for something that would bolster their story? Did they think that the story of some guy and a whale was another ‘proof’ of the resurection?

It doesn’t sound credible to me and I don’t think it does to you either.
 
It’s a tough gig defending the OT Charles. Some would say impossible. I commend you for trying.
Indeed, it is. It’s like trying to explain to a 5 year old why you are holding him down to get stuck with 5 needles. You might be able to defend your actions to him, but it’s a tough gig, isn’t it?

He’ll just be mad at you no matter what, if he’s bratty, and tell you that you’re a big meanie.

But the truth is, it’s good for him to get his immunizations, is it not? And no manner of explaining to him is going to make him understand why it’s good, and not bad, to get stuck with 5 needles.
 
So they wouldn’t have understood the prophesies to be about the resurection. They would have had no knowledge of that. There would have been no connection they could have made from the OT prophesies and Jesus. So I confirmed that:
Right.
They mentioned the prophesies and tied them into the resurrection when you have said that you don’t believe they could have done that.
Not without seeing the resurrected Christ.

You are saying they just made the connection without ever needing to see Jesus because he was, well, dead and gone.

No 1st century Jew would have connected Jonah and a whale with Jesus.
Why did they mention the prophesies when you clearly believe they couldn’t have understood the prophesies to be about Jesus?
Because they saw the resurrected Christ, or talked to people who did.
Incidentally, when I originally mentioned the prophesies, you wanted me to quote chapter and verse. It sounded like you thought I was just throwing that in to bolster my argument without there actually being any prophesies. Or maybe you were just making sure I did know about them…
Yeah–I think you didn’t know about them. I think you had to google them.

As did I.
It sounded then like you thought they were bulldust. It still sounds like that. But the Gospel writers still made claim to them. Did they do a bit of reverse prophesying? Did they go back and look for something that would bolster their story? Did they think that the story of some guy and a whale was another ‘proof’ of the resurection?
I don’t think they went back and tried to make something fit.

I think that once they saw the resurrected Christ, and had the Scriptures explained to them, then they said, “Aha!! Eureka! I get it!!”
It doesn’t sound credible to me and I don’t think it does to you either.
Yep–I don’t put much stock in prophesies. I don’t need to. 🤷
 
You are not making sense, or you don’t understand. I am referring to acts which humans do - however you characterise the acts, they are done by humans - and that is what I am referring to.

Humans can’t become ‘less than human’ again that is a cop out of responsibility
Are you saying psychologically deranged individuals are acting in a quite human fashion as you would expect any normal human to act?

Are not these individuals who are not fully functioning as humans, therefore less than human, ergo inhuman?

If it was by choice that these humans made themselves less than human then it is fully their responsibility that they are currently in an incapacitated state which does not allow them freedom of choice.

A drunk in an intoxicated stupor who savagely attacks another individual could very well be acting in a manner completely beyond rational control and thus not responsible for his actions, but still responsible for the prior choices that led to his drunken assault.

There is a difference between understanding what is entailed when we say someone is “responsible” and what you seem to vaguely refer to as a “cop out.” Someone is responsible when they are control of the means by which an action is undertaken. Saying someone is acting inhumanly is nothing like excusing them from responsibility.

In fact it is quite possible for an very rational person to be inhuman. The Nazis in Germany prior to and during WWII were very rational, very much in control and still very inhuman, yet, unlike the drunk, very responsible for their actions because their judgement faculties which made them responsible were functioning “properly.” They acted inhumanly because their moral intuitions were completely wrong, in fact, evil. Who is claiming they were not responsible for their actions? Certainly not me.

Personally, I suspect you haven’t completely thought our position since you equate inhuman with incapacitated. However, that depends upon which faculties have been compromised by wrong choices and bad behaviour over time.

The drunk was inhuman and not responsible, but the Nazis were inhuman and fully responsible.
 
Did they think that the story of some guy and a whale was another ‘proof’ of the resurection?
This is kind of funny to me.

Can you explain to me why you think that I would need to be proffering some sort of paradigm in which the gospel writers were looking for “proof” of the resurrection, when I believe they had actually seen Jesus in the flesh?

Since that sentence is way too convoluted, I will say it another way: why do you think the NT writers would be searching for proof of the resurrection, when they had The Proof already?

It’s like saying, “Were you looking for pictures of your husband to prove that you know him?” Ummm…no. I am sitting right across from him right now. I don’t need pictures for proof.
 
So the gospel writers mentioned that prophesies had been fulfilled without believing that they had. What do you make of that?
No, they understood that something spectacular had occurred, knew from their time with Jesus (who claimed to be sent by God) that this Jesus was the Messiah promised by a number of the prophets, but only later (after the ressurrection) could begin to assemble some of the various OT verses that pointed to Jesus. However, a great deal was left to the early Church Fathers (writing well after the Gospels were scribed) to expound on the depth and complexity of the OT prophecies and how these related to the words and actions of Jesus. Anything written before 100 AD does not treat in any lengthy way concerning prophetic fulfillment, it was only well after the Gospels were written that the connections were considered at length. This means that the Gospels could not have been expressly written with the intent of showing Jesus as the fulfillment of OT prophesies, except where he himself made that claim.
 
Let’s to back a little.
What’s your explanation as to how the myth of the Resurrection began. And spread?
Let’s say that someone heard a story about the resurrection and repeated it as if it were true. Maybe they thought it was true or it rang true for them. There were aspects of the story, which, if included, would make any listener doubt the veracity of the account, but they were omitted. Not intentionally, but the person telling the story thought they weren’t relevant or simply didn’t bother mentioning them.

The story stands as told. Someone who had been told will now repeat it as she had heard it, with no embellishment or no additional information, because none was originally supplied. The story, told in all sincerity in the first instance, is now passed on as being factual. If questioned, anyone repeating it will say that they heard it from an honest source and would not doubt it’s veracity.

All this would happen two thousand years ago when there was in any case no real method of checking the truth of any claim. This is all word of mouth. Passed form one person to another until it gains the patina of truth.

Now we come to this:
Can you explain to me why you think that I would need to be proffering some sort of paradigm in which the gospel writers were looking for “proof” of the resurrection, when I believe they had actually seen Jesus in the flesh?

Since that sentence is way too convoluted, I will say it another way: why do you think the NT writers would be searching for proof of the resurrection, when they had The Proof already.
Anyone coming on to the forum and reading that, having read your previous posts and come to the conclusion that you were a well read, intelligent woman who would appear to be trustworthy and would never deliberately try to mislead anyone, might accept what you have just said and might well repeat it elsewhere.

Then someone else, reading what that person had repeated would repeat it himself. And so on. So in a number of forums and discussions and dinner table conversations we have many people stating quite honestly that the gospel writers had ‘actually seen Jesus in then flesh’. Really? Yep, I have it on good authority. I’ve heard it from any number of reliable people in different forums and in various conversations.

Yet the gospels were written anonymously. It is only assumed that they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Whoever wrote Mark, even if it was Mark, doesn’t actually say that he saw the resurrected Jesus and it’s generally accepted that Matthew’s gospel is a copy of Mark’s.

Luke? Whoever it was says specifically that he wasn’t an eye witness. And John could have been an eyewitness but the gospel again is written anonymously. If he did see what he said he saw, why not identify himself?

Having been given all that additional information, do you think that anyone would then claim that the gospels must be true because each of the writers personally saw Jesus in the flesh after the resurrection?

I don’t think so. At best one could say that: Assuming that one of the gospels had been written by the person whom it is assumed wrote it, and assuming that he was telling the truth and was not mistaken, then it is possible that that one person may have been a witness.

Which is a lot different from all the definitive statements people may have made after reading your post.
 
Bradski

It’s a tough gig defending the OT Charles. Some would say impossible. I commend you for trying.

It is a tougher gig defending nihilism. 😉
 
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