Morality

[Abyssinia]

How do you refute the claim that the only reason we are moral is because of the good of society and cooperation, and empathy and this gives us tools to form subjective morals?

Psychopaths lack it and therefore can only base what passes for morals with them on fear of punishment. So no, not always an innate sense of right and wrong?

 

[teachccd]

Morality is derived from an objective moral truth by which all actions are measured. We call this objective moral truth God and that leaves no room for any subjective or relative moral code. How can you uphold this with an atheist? With great difficulty but anything to the contrary refutes itself. If everything is only relative then that is a relative statement and holds no absolute truth…

 

[mdrummer5]

How do you refute the claim that the only reason we are moral is because of the good of society and cooperation, and empathy and this gives us tools to form subjective morals?

Psychopaths lack it and therefore can only base what passes for morals with them on fear of punishment. So no, not always an innate sense of right and wrong?

This came up in another thread (I believe started by an atheist). There is no such thing as an innate sense of right and wrong.

Ultimately, morality is learned. I’m not going to go into specifics but it’s known in psychology as Kohlberg’s stages of moral development. Using your example a psychopath never develops past the first or second stage. Then it’s a question of why, were they never taught or is their brain unable to comprehend it? Both are sad but neitehr is uncommon.

 

[teachccd]

This came up in another thread (I believe started by an atheist). There is no such thing as an innate sense of right and wrong.

You may want to investigate natural law. St. Paul states this in Romans 2:14-15:

14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these, having not the law, are a law to themselves. 15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them: and their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another, 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

It seems clear that there is an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong. And this is all founded in our objective moral truth: God…

 

[Abyssinia]

Slavery was okay in most parts of the world, but suddenly we collectively decided that wasn’t nice and civilized nations stopped doing it? Even further back we treated our daughters like commodities. If morality changes with time and location, it isn’t objective?

 

[mdrummer5]

It seems clear that there is an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong. And this is all founded in our objective moral truth: God

Ah but you see that’s the point, it is founded in God who taught it to man and man has passed it down. If God had not shown us morality we would never know it. If our parents didn’t teach us about morality (whether they used God to do so or not is an entirely different topic) we would not know it. My point is that while I agree that all morality can be traced back to God’s teachings it still in some way shape or form needs to be taught.

An atheist can have good morals… we will just disagree on where they came from. In fact the idea that morality is innate in us as human beings is an atheist’s argument for why they don’t “need God” to have morals.

 

[teachccd]

Ah but you see that’s the point, it is founded in God who taught it to man and man has passed it down. If God had not shown us morality we would never know it. If our parents didn’t teach us about morality (whether they used God to do so or not is an entirely different topic) we would not know it. My point is that while I agree that all morality can be traced back to God’s teachings it still in some way shape or form needs to be taught.

An atheist can have good morals… we will just disagree on where they came from. In fact the idea that morality is innate in us as human beings is an atheist’s argument for why they don’t “need God” to have morals.

There is natural law which is imprinted on the heart of every human being. This is taught by the Catholic Church and is therefore to be an accepted teaching. I cannot debate this issue and I quoted scripture where St. Paul refers to this. Yes, we do form our consciences throughout our lives and many things we are taught. That is not in question. But as for things such as murder or the torture of another human being or many other very serious offenses against humanity we “know” through natural law. So I would have to say that we are innately predispositioned to the basic moral code.

 

[teachccd]

An atheist can have good morals… we will just disagree on where they came from. In fact the idea that morality is innate in us as human beings is an atheist’s argument for why they don’t “need God” to have morals.

That depends since an atheist will only see our innate moral choices as a product of natural selection rather than natural law. I think that an atheist can point out any argument for why they don’t “need God” but we cannot blind ourselves of the truth just to enter into a “rational” debate with an atheist. Again, I will prompt you to look up natural law and what the Church teaches about it. We do have a God given sense of morality… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Slavery was okay in most parts of the world, but suddenly we collectively decided that wasn’t nice and civilized nations stopped doing it? Even further back we treated our daughters like commodities. If morality changes with time and location, it isn’t objective?

How humans follow objective truth is not indicatve of the truth itself. Yes, we will see many things (abortion for example) that are accepted by different societies but that is where free will comes to play. Slavery was never okay. Slavery was a practice that people chose to follow despite their innate understanding that all of us are humans. It is a sense of pride and ownership and is no different than the prejudices that are practiced everywhere to this day. Objective moral values cannot change. The following of those values will forever change with those who choose power over dignity… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I posted this on your other thread that parallels this one. I think that it is pertinent here as well:

Because through many reasons they fail to see the objective moral code. Objectively I am 5’8" tall. Some may insist that I am really tall and some may insist that I am really short. They may even derive a “truth” to the idea that I am really tall. They might go around and proclaim that teachccd is really tall and then people will start believing it. Then when somenone mentions my name many will say, “oh yes that really tall guy”. So the objective truth of my being 5’8" is now a subjective truth because of perception. It is these sometimes distorted perceptions that allow subjective truths to become disordered and even accepted in certain cultures and societies.

It is important to note that whatever our free will does to distort objective truth can never eliminate that objective truth. Objective truth stands on its own and can never be altered or eliminated only distorted… teachccd