More about Once Saved Always Saved..

[distracted]

the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??

 

[SIA]

the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??

Where do you get that from?? That kind of guilt isn’t found in Scripture anywhere!

 

[NDfan]

the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??

It makes sense on the surface but then again you don’t understand OSAS. OSAS doesn’t say now that you’re saved you are always saved hence sin doesn’t matter. It is worse to continue sinning after accepting Christ. But I would argue that anyone who continues to purposely sin after accepting Christ is either not taking his/her confession of faith seriously or really doesn’t believe.

As far as purging or purgatory, Christ purges our sins by HIS blood at the cross. What is it that you are trying to purge once you die??

 

[SIA]

It makes sense on the surface but then again you don’t understand OSAS. OSAS doesn’t say now that you’re saved you are always saved hence sin doesn’t matter. It is worse to continue sinning after accepting Christ. But I would argue that anyone who continues to purposely sin after accepting Christ is either not taking his/her confession of faith seriously or really doesn’t believe.

As far as purging or purgatory, Christ purges our sins by HIS blood at the cross. What is it that you are trying to purge once you die??

Christ did it all. That in itself is the entire crux of Christianity.

 

[NDfan]

Christ did it all. That in itself is the entire crux of Christianity.

Amen

 

[MarcoPolo]

Christ purges our sins by HIS blood at the cross. What is it that you are trying to purge once you die??

Christ died for guilt of sin so that man may unite with God. Damage for sin is what is purged. Often referred to as “temporal punishment” for sin, or the “stains” of sin, or “attachment” to sin. These things are removed in purgatory because in order to be fully joined with God, no propensity for sin can exist in a man’s soul. As you are now, you can still sin.

 

[Spirithound]

But I would argue that anyone who continues to purposely sin after accepting Christ is either not taking his/her confession of faith seriously or really doesn’t believe.

It’s higly probable that I don’t understand OSAS, so please bear with me. I have some questions for you.

1. Do you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”, or something that approaches it?
2. Can you explain it for me?
3. In the quote above, was the person who is not taking their confession of faith seriously, or really doesn’t believe, at one time saved?
   Peace

 

[brkn1]

Christ died for guilt of sin so that man may unite with God. Damage for sin is what is purged. Often referred to as “temporal punishment” for sin, or the “stains” of sin, or “attachment” to sin. These things are removed in purgatory because in order to be fully joined with God, no propensity for sin can exist in a man’s soul. As you are now, you can still sin.

A person’s natural “body of sin” is already separated from a dead person that died in Christ. That body will not be joined again to a saved person’s soul. The eventual final physical resurrection will involve a new glorified body instead.
There will be nothing that needs to be removed from that glorified body or the redeemed (completely paid for) soul that died in Christ.
Our being joined to Christ does it all. Christ is our perfection. Christ did it all by Himself for His sheep. His redeeming death was an infinitely sufficient payment for His redeemed. We insult His payment by saying more must be added to make it sufficient.

 

[NDfan]

Christ died for guilt of sin so that man may unite with God. Damage for sin is what is purged. Often referred to as “temporal punishment” for sin, or the “stains” of sin, or “attachment” to sin. These things are removed in purgatory because in order to be fully joined with God, no propensity for sin can exist in a man’s soul. As you are now, you can still sin.

Christ did not die for the guilt of sin. He paid the price for sin period. Where do you get the word guilt from?? GOD demanded a sacrifice for the payment of our sins just like when the Jews would sacrifice at the temple. They didn’t sacrifice an animal to get rid of the guilt of sin, it was so they would be considered clean again before GOD. Christ’s work at the cross is what justifies us before GOD and makes us clean.

You’re implying that when we die and are resurrected our sinful bodies are resurrected along with us with the ability to continue to sin. If that were the case we would never be able to be with GOD. Once our sinful bodies die we are given new spiritual bodies like Christ received when he was resurrected. There’s no purging of anything needed.

 

[MarcoPolo]

A person’s natural “body of sin” is already separated from a dead person that died in Christ.

It is not just the body that generates sin. It is the spirit. Case in point: Satan’s pride, envy.

Purgatory does not take away from Christ’s sacrifice, when it is by that very sacrifice that purgation occurs.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Christ did not die for the guilt of sin. He paid the price for sin period.

It is the guilt because it is by Christ that we reach heaven. By joining Him, we are not held accountable for sins that lead to death, i.e. not guilty of them. If He eradicated all dimensions of sin, no sin would exist. That does not mean that sin does not have consequences. It creates slavery, addiction, hurts others, weakens a soul, turns eyes away from God, etc… You are suggesting sin has no consequences because Christ died on the cross? Your soul is now in the state it will be in heaven?

 

[NDfan]

It’s higly probable that I don’t understand OSAS, so please bear with me. I have some questions for you.

Very happy to answer

1. Do you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”, or something that approaches it?
2. Can you explain it for me?

I don’t believe OSAS like the Presbyterians do but let me explain more fully the doctrine of OSAS as I am very intimate with the belief. The OSAS doctrine is taken from several verses of scripture including Romans 8:33-34, John 3:3, Titus 3:5 just to name a few. These particular verses reference those that GOD has chosen leading some to believe that we don’t choose GOD, HE chooses us. This in turn led to the doctrine of efficacious grace which is something that Augustine believed and a major doctrine of Calvin. It states that GOD chooses to save some but not all of mankind. Those HE chooses to save are called the elect. This is where pre-destination is drawn from. GOD then imputes irresistable grace to the elect through spiritual regeneration. This is required because OSAS believes that man is so spiritually dead from the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve that he cannot freely choose GOD without assistance from GOD. Hence grace preceding faith. Once a man is spiritually re-generated he can then cooperate with GOD on HIS plan of salvation and freely and lovingly accept Christ.

For someone to become unsaved they would have to be spiritually ungenerated or rejected if you will by GOD which then would completely contradict the doctrine of the elect and would be counter to the love that GOD has for us. Once saved always saved simply means that once GOD has chosen you, HE will not reject you. Once you are spiritually regenerated you cooperate with GOD. That doesn’t mean you won’t make mistakes and commit sin and certainly GOD’s forgiveness is needed under OSAS. But the payment for sin has been completed by the blood of Christ.

This is a very crude and quick explanation so other folks who hold this belief may want to add some.

As a side note. The Methodist movement counters this argument and states that GOD spiritually regenerates all of mankind (not just some) and allows us to freely choose HIM. Methodists believe that there will be those who are spiritually regenerated but will not follow GOD’s plan for salvation. This is also called prevenient grace.

Hope this helped a little.

1. In the quote above, was the person who is not taking their confession of faith seriously, or really doesn’t believe, at one time saved?
   Peace

Under the OSAS doctrine no he/she is not. OSAS would contend that this person was never saved or was never spiritually regenerated by GOD to begin with. They basically were phonies to be vey blunt. OSAS would never state that a person who is part of the elect would fall away from GOD. It’s impossible because that would mean GOD has rejected you.

The Methodist would certainly say that if this person genuinely believed they were saved. But that it’s possible to fall away from your faith and become unsaved by rejecting Christ.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

It is the guilt because it is by Christ that we reach heaven. By joining Him, we are not held accountable for sins that lead to death, i.e. not guilty of them. If He eradicated all dimensions of sin, no sin would exist. That does not mean that sin does not have consequences. It creates slavery, addiction, hurts others, weakens a soul, turns eyes away from God, etc… You are suggesting sin has no consequences because Christ died on the cross? Your soul is now in the state it will be in heaven?

I believe I misunderstood your definition of guilt. I understand what you are saying now. Yes we are guilty of sin and as we both know death is the result of sin. Once we die are you suggesting that our souls still have the ability to commit sin?? If so then yes it would make sense that GOD would have to purge our souls of that sinful nature so that we may be with HIM. But then that purging would be instantaneous wouldn’t it?? It also would be an action by GOD and not a physical place. this is what always confused me in Catholic school. Hearing that it was a place where we were punished until the price for our sin was paid and we were considered clean before GOD. I always rejected this because that would then detract from the work of Christ. Help me out here.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If so then yes it would make sense that GOD would have to purge our souls of that sinful nature so that we may be with HIM. But then that purging would be instantaneous wouldn’t it?? It also would be an action by GOD and not a physical place.

Correct. Correct. Correct!
Purgatory only makes us completely pure and focus on God alone, any attachment to a sinful nature will be “purged”, i.e. made fit for heaven. The sins themselves are indeed forgiven.

The language has been a barrier. Is it called a “place”? Does it take “time”? It has never been defined. Throughout tradition these words have been used, no doubt, but in the afterlife, these things surely do not exist as we know them. Think of how Scripture refers to heaven “above”, but does it exist prepositionally above the surface of the earth, at some longitudinal coordinates? I hear many Catholics talk about more or less “time” in Purgatory, and I can’t be sure of how some of them mean it, but one must be careful to qualify it as follows:

As the concept has developed, we are at a point of more or less calling it a condition or encounter, or some other less temporal/spacial term. Prior to his Papacy, Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about Purgatory, which you may find interesting:"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”
…
Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231So, it therefore might be, as you say, “instantaneous” as far as we understand time. So a forgiven person dies, he is rendered no longer able to sin and his soul is made completely heavenly in nature, and then he can see God face to face. I would say that would be sound theology consistent with what Purgatory is.

 

[Ruthie]

NDfan,

I gather that you believe that one can make a mistake and commit a sin, and would still be saved under OSAS, but if you “purposely” sin (to use your word) that you are not (because your profession of faith was insincere).

My question is, how do you tell whether someone has purposely sinned, or made a mistake?

Ruthie

 

[SIA]

Christ died for guilt of sin so that man may unite with God. Damage for sin is what is purged. Often referred to as “temporal punishment” for sin, or the “stains” of sin, or “attachment” to sin. These things are removed in purgatory because in order to be fully joined with God, no propensity for sin can exist in a man’s soul. As you are now, you can still sin.

Guilt of sin? temporal punishment for sin? Where in Scripture does this come from? Why the need for Christ’s sacrifice then?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Where in Scripture does this come from? Why the need for Christ’s sacrifice then?

For example, addiction is a consequence of sin (Jn 8:34). While a saved person has his sin forgiven by the Cross and he is bound for heaven, the purgation will purify him from these effects of sin, making his soul perfect for heaven.

Christ died, so we can go to heaven and join the Father, returning to the relationship between God and man before the Fall.

 

[sola_scriptura]

For example, addiction is a consequence of sin (Jn 8:34). While a saved person has his sin forgiven by the Cross and he is bound for heaven, the purgation will purify him from these effects of sin, making his soul perfect for heaven.

Was it his soul or his flesh that sinned? In other words do you think souls that are reborn of God are imperfect or just the surrounding flesh?

Wasn’t Jesus’ sacrifice enough to atone for our sins?

Christ died, so we can go to heaven and join the Father, returning to the relationship between God and man before the Fall.

You mean after we’re burned in purgatory for a few thousand or million years while being purified?

I hear there are Catholics who torture themselves for purification purposes (I watched a show on it recently). How does the church deal with this practice?

 

[NDfan]

Correct. Correct. Correct!
Purgatory only makes us completely pure and focus on God alone, any attachment to a sinful nature will be “purged”, i.e. made fit for heaven. The sins themselves are indeed forgiven.

The language has been a barrier. Is it called a “place”? Does it take “time”? It has never been defined. Throughout tradition these words have been used, no doubt, but in the afterlife, these things surely do not exist as we know them. Think of how Scripture refers to heaven “above”, but does it exist prepositionally above the surface of the earth, at some longitudinal coordinates? I hear many Catholics talk about more or less “time” in Purgatory, and I can’t be sure of how some of them mean it, but one must be careful to qualify it as follows:

As the concept has developed, we are at a point of more or less calling it a condition or encounter, or some other less temporal/spacial term. Prior to his Papacy, Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about Purgatory, which you may find interesting:"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”
…
Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231So, it therefore might be, as you say, “instantaneous” as far as we understand time. So a forgiven person dies, he is rendered no longer able to sin and his soul is made completely heavenly in nature, and then he can see God face to face. I would say that would be sound theology consistent with what Purgatory is.

Marco my friend that is the best explanation I have ever seen on purgatory. Excellent excellent excellent. Very helpful to me.

Thank you much.

Blessings

 

[distracted]

Where do you get that from?? That kind of guilt isn’t found in Scripture anywhere!

for one thing, not all truth is found in Scripture…

That being said, there IS something in scirputre… I’m just not sure where it is and don’t have time to look it up but there is something about how… once you have tasted of the goodness of the Lord… and gone back to [the ways of the world… ]… it is not a good thing… and you are worse off than before…

Anyone know this passage?? I can get it tomorrow or next day…