More about Once Saved Always Saved..

[distracted]

As far as purging or purgatory, Christ purges our sins by HIS blood at the cross. What is it that you are trying to purge once you die??

so no need of purging exists after dying? What is the magic of dying that makes a person no longer in need of purging??

 

[distracted]

Christ did it all. That in itself is the entire crux of Christianity.

true… Now we have to do something… We have to apply Christ to our sins… and our merciful Lord allows us to do that in the next age (St. Matt 12:32) if we have not worked out our salvation sufficiently in this world (Phil 2:12)…

 

[distracted]

Christ died for guilt of sin so that man may unite with God. Damage for sin is what is purged. Often referred to as “temporal punishment” for sin, or the “stains” of sin, or “attachment” to sin. These things are removed in purgatory because in order to be fully joined with God, no propensity for sin can exist in a man’s soul. As you are now, you can still sin.

thank you so much…

 

[NDfan]

NDfan,

I gather that you believe that one can make a mistake and commit a sin, and would still be saved under OSAS, but if you “purposely” sin (to use your word) that you are not (because your profession of faith was insincere).

My question is, how do you tell whether someone has purposely sinned, or made a mistake?

Ruthie

Ruthie great question. Under OSAS calvin believed that once you were chosen per se by GOD and became one of the elect, you then cooperated with GOD on HIS plan of salvation. Being spiritually re-generated was an act of GOD that imputed irresistable grace. Once this happens calvinists certainly understand that we are sinners and will continue to sin. But that’s why Christ came and died for us. To pay the price for those sins. Paul speaks of this in his letter to the Romans when he outright states that the very thing he doesn’t want to do he ends up doing anyway. Not that he purposely sets out to commit sin, but that in our daily lives as Christians we will commit some sins. That’s why he states thank GOD we have Christ. Our goal should absolutely be to fight it and struggle with it. Sometimes we overcome it and sometimes we don’t.

I didn’t mean to imply that if someone sinned purposely they were not saved. I simply would call into question their confession of faith as being genuine. But being able to tell if someone purposely committed sin or simply made a mistake can only be determined by GOD. OSAS believers would struggle with someone who professed their faith in Christ but then committed say murder. They would simply question if that person was truly a Christ follower. OSAS doesn’t excuse sin at all, it just states that once a person is truly saved by GOD they are always saved. If they became unsaved that would mean that GOD would have had to spiritually un-generate that person. Something OSAS followers strictly would never believe because that would be counter to scripture.

I would personally say that the true mark of a Christ follower is whether or not you are repenting of your sins. Repent remember simply means to turn away from. If I called myself a Christ follower but was not repenting of my sins, then I would think your first statement to me would be something like “you call yourself a follower of Christ?”

Hope that helps.

 

[NDfan]

so no need of purging exists after dying? What is the magic of dying that makes a person no longer in need of purging??

To me the blood of Christ is what purges us and makes us clean before GOD. Christ justifies and sanctifies us. Our sinful bodies die because the sting of sin or wages of sin are death. Our souls continue to live either with GOD in heaven or in hell depending on whether or not we accepted Christ. Our souls never die they just leave the body upon death. Since the soul never dies it then makes sense that it is not the soul that commits the actual sin.

But if we are to believe that the soul commits sin per se then it would certainly make sense that GOD would purge it to make it fit to be with HIM. Otherwise when our souls are united with our new glorified bodies we will be right back to the beginning again committing sin. I just never saw the soul as committing the sin. Scripture tells us that we are wicked at heart. Not at the soul. So it is in our hearts that we commit sin. That’s why we die, the soul doesn’t it just leaves the body. Believing in Christ then makes our soul worthy if you will of being with GOD in heaven.

PEACE

 

[reen12]

the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??

If there is a need for this, I trust that God will provide such purgation.
I leave it to Him, in His mercy and compassion, to know what each of His human creatures needs, in this regard, here or hereafter.

Sackcloth and ashes, rending one’s garment, a day of atonement and fasting -
these are human-sized realites. There is a place for these. Yet the gaze
must be readily turned outward - toward the world, and our responsibilites in it,
not turned inward, toward self and one’s sins, and the purgation required, in this regard. Investment of time and energy, might better be used in leaving the world a better place than we found it, trusting God for our eternal life in His presence.
Looking outward - toward the beauty of His creation, and thanking Him for same,
is a much to be preferred spiritual activity, I think.

God has placed His natural law in the hearts of human beings.
If great evil has been done, this is the realm of sackcloth and ashes, and fasting -
as an outward sign of repentence, and the turning back to God.

Part of walking humbly, with God, is to accept the fact that human beings sin,
and that God is ever prepared to offer both mercy and forgiveness,
as He does in the Hebrew Scriptures. Surely, God - above all, shows compassion toward His human creatures.
God is the font and source of all compassion.

…though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow… Isaiah 1

Matters of purgation are best left to Him.
Radical, childlike trust, in God, brings inner peace,
and the capacity to turn our gaze from self, to His world,
and to our responsibilies in it.

reen12

 

[sola_scriptura]

Correct. Correct. Correct!
Purgatory only makes us completely pure and focus on God alone, any attachment to a sinful nature will be “purged”, i.e. made fit for heaven. The sins themselves are indeed forgiven.

The language has been a barrier. Is it called a “place”? Does it take “time”? It has never been defined. Throughout tradition these words have been used, no doubt, but in the afterlife, these things surely do not exist as we know them. Think of how Scripture refers to heaven “above”, but does it exist prepositionally above the surface of the earth, at some longitudinal coordinates? I hear many Catholics talk about more or less “time” in Purgatory, and I can’t be sure of how some of them mean it, but one must be careful to qualify it as follows:

As the concept has developed, we are at a point of more or less calling it a condition or encounter, or some other less temporal/spacial term. Prior to his Papacy, Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about Purgatory, which you may find interesting:"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”
…
Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231So, it therefore might be, as you say, “instantaneous” as far as we understand time. So a forgiven person dies, he is rendered no longer able to sin and his soul is made completely heavenly in nature, and then he can see God face to face. I would say that would be sound theology consistent with what Purgatory is.

While the statement by the current Pope is eloquent indeed, I still find no scriptural basis for this concept & in fact I do believe it sends a message that the sacrifice of Christ isn’t completely efficacious. Moreover, the idea of purgatory has been terribly abused by the church in past centuries (it was partly behind Luther’s 95 thesis).

 

[sola_scriptura]

Ruthie great question. Under OSAS calvin believed that once you were chosen per se by GOD and became one of the elect, you then cooperated with GOD on HIS plan of salvation. Being spiritually re-generated was an act of GOD that imputed irresistable grace. Once this happens calvinists certainly understand that we are sinners and will continue to sin. But that’s why Christ came and died for us. To pay the price for those sins. Paul speaks of this in his letter to the Romans when he outright states that the very thing he doesn’t want to do he ends up doing anyway. Not that he purposely sets out to commit sin, but that in our daily lives as Christians we will commit some sins. That’s why he states thank GOD we have Christ. Our goal should absolutely be to fight it and struggle with it. Sometimes we overcome it and sometimes we don’t.

John Calvin didn’t create, agree with, or have any nexus with the doctrine of OSAS. Reformed believers do not hold to OSAS.

I am not a student of OSAS, nor as a Reformed Protestant will I defend this erroneous doctrine. However, please do not ascribe it to John Calvin. He had nothing, I repeat nothing to do with it.

I appreciate your description of election, which is to a degree accurate. However, Reformed Protestants believe holiness is the eventual result of regeneration. We simply believe God makes us a new person – we do not regenerate ourselves.

The doctrine of unconditional election and perseverance of the saints (which is I think what you meant to describe) is both biblically sound and extremely important to endure in faith:

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39).

These wonderful words by Paul tell us the level of confidence we should have that God will sustain us.

 

[MarcoPolo]

While the statement by the current Pope is eloquent indeed, I still find no scriptural basis for this concept

As a sola scripturist, you could certainly deduce it quite reasonably from Scripture. Even Christians still sin (1 Jn 1:9) which causes a stain to the soul, or the drive to repeat the sin (e.g. Jn 8:34). But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10, Ep 5:27, Hb 12:23, Rv 21:27). So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has a tendency for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Marco my friend that is the best explanation I have ever seen on purgatory. Excellent excellent excellent. Very helpful to me.

Thank you much.

Blessings

Blessings to you friend, thanks.

 

[SIA]

true… Now we have to do something… We have to apply Christ to our sins… and our merciful Lord allows us to do that in the next age (St. Matt 12:32) if we have not worked out our salvation sufficiently in this world (Phil 2:12)…

uhh, don’t think so. Try re-reading those without the Catholic twist or influence if you will.

 

[Spirithound]

Was it his soul or his flesh that sinned?

Since the soul never dies it then makes sense that it is not the soul that commits the actual sin.

But if we are to believe that the soul commits sin per se then it would certainly make sense that GOD would purge it to make it fit to be with HIM. I just never saw the soul as committing the sin. Scripture tells us that we are wicked at heart. Not at the soul. So it is in our hearts that we commit sin.

But see, we are not just disjointed body/soul amalgams. We are human, and thus by our nature we have a body, which is animated by the spirit-soul (get out your Greek dictionaries folks, and look up the etymology of animated!). Your body does not act on its own, it is controlled by something…you! But are you separate from your soul? Certainly not. Therefore, we must conclude that a person sins, an act often carried out by the body, but willed into action by the soul.

Now, NDfan, (and anyone else who cares to read and respond ), what is “the heart”? The blood-pumping organ in your chest is not the seat of thought in your body; the mind is. But what is the mind? Can an animal sin? I’m not certain that it’s an obvious answer, but I would say no. Your mind must then be different from an animal’s. How? The same as above. It is your (my) spirit-soul which consents to the impure thoughts, not simply the body.

Peace

 

[sola_scriptura]

But see, we are not just disjointed body/soul amalgams. We are human, and thus by our nature we have a body, which is animated by the spirit-soul (get out your Greek dictionaries folks, and look up the etymology of animated!). Your body does not act on its own, it is controlled by something…you! But are you separate from your soul? Certainly not. Therefore, we must conclude that a person sins, an act often carried out by the body, but willed into action by the soul.

Now, NDfan, (and anyone else who cares to read and respond ), what is “the heart”? The blood-pumping organ in your chest is not the seat of thought in your body; the mind is. But what is the mind? Can an animal sin? I’m not certain that it’s an obvious answer, but I would say no. Your mind must then be different from an animal’s. How? The same as above. It is your (my) spirit-soul which consents to the impure thoughts, not simply the body.

Peace

I can pull up dozens of verses that speak to this, here’s one of my favorites:

**For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want (Romans 7:18-19, see also Romans 8:3).**

 

[Ruthie]

NDfan, thank you for your answer to my question. And Sola_Scriptura, thanks for your response to ND’s post.

We seem to be closer in this area than I thought. We both believe that, after committing oneself to the care of Jesus, it is possible to sin again.

Thanks,

Ruthie

 

[MarcoPolo]

I can pull up dozens of verses that speak to this, here’s one of my favorites:

**For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want (Romans 7:18-19, see also Romans 8:3).**

None of these verses say sin exists only in flesh. As I mentioned earlier, Satan sinned without having flesh. Pride, envy, etc… None of the angels would have fallen if what you are claiming is true.

 

[NDfan]

John Calvin didn’t create, agree with, or have any nexus with the doctrine of OSAS. Reformed believers do not hold to OSAS.

Sola with all due respect John Calvin may not have created the actual doctrine of OSAS but it was certainly born out the Calvinist movement. Calvin was a believer in efficacious grace which is irresistable grace imputed to the believer by GOD. This grace is also known as spiritual re-generation which ultimately leads to one becoming part of the elect and cooperating with GOD on HIS plan of salvation. Once you are chosen by GOD you cannot be unchosen. OSAS is more held by the Presbyterian groups today, some Baptists and a few non-denoms.

I am not a student of OSAS, nor as a Reformed Protestant will I defend this erroneous doctrine. However, please do not ascribe it to John Calvin. He had nothing, I repeat nothing to do with it.

Again I don’t believe a stated that John Calvin himself created the doctrine. It was a development that came from the Calvinists followers.

I appreciate your description of election, which is to a degree accurate. However, Reformed Protestants believe holiness is the eventual result of regeneration. We simply believe God makes us a new person – we do not regenerate ourselves.

Please re-read my post. I never stated that we re-generate ourselves. GOD first spiritually re-generates us which is why reformers will say grace precedes faith. But there were 2 distinct beliefs of the grace imputed to the believer. The Calvinists believed in efficacious grace meaning it was irrisistable to the believer and only imputed to some. These were known to be the elect. Calvinists and modern day Presbyterians hold the view that GOD owes nothing to mankind and can save anyone HE chooses, but that not everyone is saved. This was also the view held by Augustine in which he completely refuted the preachings of the Pelagians.

The 2nd type of grace followed by the Methodists is the notion of pre-venient grace in which GOD imputes grace to everyone, spiritually re-generating everyone and giving them the free will to choose Christ. Some will cooperate and some may not. Even among those who do cooperate it is possible for them to uncooperate if you will at some point in their lives and lose salvation. Presbyterians preach OSAS because they believe for that to happen GOD would have to spiritually un-generate you. Something HE would never do.

Might I suggest that you read carefully both doctrines and trace their roots throughout church history. Also RC Sproul has several excellent reading and listening materials in which he, in great detail, outlines the 5 solas. Of course when he explains grace alone he sides with the notion of pre-destination.

The doctrine of unconditional election and perseverance of the saints (which is I think what you meant to describe) is both biblically sound and extremely important to endure in faith:

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39).

These wonderful words by Paul tell us the level of confidence we should have that God will sustain us.

Yes and it is this quote that the OSAS followers will most certainly reference when defending their position among others from Romans, Titus etc.

It sounds like you and I probably believe similarly in that once we choose Christ and stay true to our faith (persevere) nothing will separate us from the love of GOD. I don’t think anyone would argue with you.

PEACE

 

[sola_scriptura]

None of these verses say sin exists only in flesh. As I mentioned earlier, Satan sinned without having flesh. Pride, envy, etc… None of the angels would have fallen if what you are claiming is true.

I’m not saying this exactly. However, our sin nature is the product of our fallen state i.e. our flesh. Our spirit is either born of God or born of the devil. In essence unless reborn of God we belong to the devil.

Living in this state of sin is living “according to the flesh” as opposed to living according to the spirit. When reborn our spirit awakens; prior to our rebirth the devil tries to keep us separated from God. He plays on the weakness of our flesh, our mind, as opposed to the spirit.

Flesh is always presented as opposed to the spirit. That Satan or his minions sinned without flesh does seem to confuse the dichotomy of spirit versus flesh that we learn throughout scripture. However, it need not. The children of God have but one weakness, which is our flesh. We are like the good angels in a spiritual sense but we do not exist as they do, in a supernatural state. We exist in fallen flesh.

With regard to prevenient grace, I was an Arminian for years. I’ve read almost everything Wesley wrote & ultimately I came to find more accord with Calvin. I simply do not believe all people are given all aspects of grace. However, I still find value in the teachings of Wesley. Moreover, I do think Calvin may have not been exactly right with regard to predestination to hell. I do think the elect are called by irresistible grace. However, in scripture we constantly see God having more mercy that even His own rules allow for. He keeps leaving the door open to forgiveness, even though people continually reject Him. I think a more merciful God then we can know or imagine is the real story of hidden providence. However, according to a strict literal approach, Calvin is closer to the truth than most others.

What will become of the reprobate is not something IMO we can speculate on with any degree of certainty, so in this instance I tend to side more with Luther. Again, with regard to the Remonstrants, Arminius, or Wesley I do find great value in many of their teachings – but not with their soteriology.

 

[Mickey]

I simply do not believe all people are given all aspects of grace.

**Grace has been given mystically to those who have been baptized into Christ; and it becomes active within them to the extent that they actively observe the commandments. Grace never ceases to help us secretly; but to do good - as far as lies in our power - depends on us. **
St. Mark the Ascetic

 

[sola_scriptura]

**Grace has been given mystically to those who have been baptized into Christ; and it becomes active within them to the extent that they actively observe the commandments. Grace never ceases to help us secretly; but to do good - as far as lies in our power - depends on us. **
St. Mark the Ascetic

We are grafted into the church, in a corporate sense, through baptism. However, subjectively we are only saved by faith – which is given by God not wrought through our own efforts or endeavor.

I always hear the argument that since God gives commandments He must also give all those who hear them the ability to obey them.

However, when God gave commandments to the Hebrews He also foretold they would disobey and break covenant. In effect God knew He was giving commandments in futility with regard to the reprobate. The word of God can only be received by grace.

 

[Mickey]

However, when God gave commandments to the Hebrews He also foretold they would disobey and break covenant. In effect God knew He was giving commandments in futility with regard to the reprobate. The word of God can only be received by grace.

**The roof of any house stands upon the foundations and the rest of the structure. The foundations themselves are laid in order to carry the roof. This is both useful and necessary, for the roof cannot stand without the foundations and the foundations are absolutely useless without the roof - no help to any living creature. In the same way the grace of God is preserved by the practice of the commandments, and the observance of these commandments is laid down like foundations through the gift of God. The grace of the Spirit cannot remain with us without the practice of the commandments, but the practice of the commandments is of no help or advantage to us without the grace of God. **
St. Symeon the New Theologian