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Mickey
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1Peter 3:21
Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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NDfan
Guest
Spirithound good stuff. But I would be careful to say pull out the Greek dictionaries and look up something. This will only give you a philosophical answer.But see, we are not just disjointed body/soul amalgams. We are human, and thus by our nature we have a body, which is animated by the spirit-soul (get out your Greek dictionaries folks, and look up the etymology of animated!). Your body does not act on its own, it is controlled by something…you! But are you separate from your soul? Certainly not. Therefore, we must conclude that a person sins, an act often carried out by the body, but willed into action by the soul.
Now, NDfan, (and anyone else who cares to read and respond), what is “the heart”? The blood-pumping organ in your chest is not the seat of thought in your body; the mind is. But what is the mind? Can an animal sin? I’m not certain that it’s an obvious answer, but I would say no. Your mind must then be different from an animal’s. How? The same as above. It is your (my
) spirit-soul which consents to the impure thoughts, not simply the body.
Peace
I don’t believe we exist separate from our soul. Our soul contains the spirit of GOD which gives us life. We cannot live without our soul. But GOD also gives us our free will. So the question then would be where does the free will reside? In the soul, the heart, the mind?? We have to choose to do something wrong unless of course we don’t realize what we are doing. So then the question becomes what initiates the wicked action? The soul? I say no it is the mind. This is what I meant when I said wicked at heart. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the heart itself carries out wicked actions. But I also don’t believe that the soul wills into action wicked behavior. It comes from your mind which has the free will.
Jesus separates the heart mind and soul in Matthew when HE tells us to love the Lord your GOD with all your heart mind and soul. But in Luke 12 when Jesus tells the parable of the rich fool HE states that GOD says your soul is required tonight. That implies that the soul will be taken from the body and the body will no longer have life. We also read in scripture that we receive new glorified bodies like Christ which gets re-united with our soul. Under your premise this new glorified body would still commit sin because a soul that is capable of willing into action a sinful act will still exist without purgation.
I would argue that our glorified bodies when joined with our soul are already purged of sin because GOD is going to eliminate sin completely. We are made pure and holy before GOD by Christ as stated by Paul in 1st Corinthians.
PEACE
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NDfan
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Ruthie you are quite welcome. And yes it is possible to commit sin after committing oneself to Christ.
PEACE Sister
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sola_scriptura
Guest
This is a statement I agree with. I’m not sure why my previous statements give you the idea I’m not in accord with this statement made by St. Symeon?
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MrS
Guest
The temporal punishment for the sins.
Christ re-opened the gates of heaven, and was the appeasement to the Father for our sinful nature.
But Christ is not going to serve the time for the unrepentant murderer in hell, nor the time for the non-mortal sins we all commit.
We have to pick up that cross ourselves.
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MrS
Guest
Yes, fine words indeed. But be aware that the message is of the great love God has for us… and nowhere in the message does Paul say or hint that we ourselves cannot separate us from the love of God.
In fact, that is the point. We have the free choice to reject God.
Calvin boxed himself in with his “double” predestination. If we believe that God cannot create something for the purpose of evil, then either God did not create Judas
or
God created Judas and included him in His wish that all men be saved. But He also gave Judas, and each of us, the free will to reject God.
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sola_scriptura
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Calvin did not believe God could not create something for evil, to the contrary:
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).
Indeed Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. Do you think Judas’ betrayal came as a surprise to Jesus? He knew He would be betrayed; and God decreed by whom. This was all part of God’s eternal plan.
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Mickey
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Does everthing that I respond to you automatically mean I am in disagreement with you?
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Mickey
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Judas was one of the elect. He threw that away by his own free will.
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sola_scriptura
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I disagree.
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MrS
Guest
Of course Jesus knew what Judas would do.
and of course God knew when He created Judas.
However… Judas was not created to do an evil act. Nor were any of the angels. Calvin can’t get out of that corner. To teach that we are “predestined” to do what we do is goofy if it teaches things like Judas was created to commit that evil
All things are made for good… and nothing can separate us from that love of God… Except ourselves.
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Mickey
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I know. You disagree with 2000 years of Sacred Tradition and have decided to agree with Jean Cauvin.
God foresees but does not cause the evil actions of humans, who always have free will.
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MrS
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Originally Posted by Mickey forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Judas was one of the elect. He threw that away by his own free will.
Judas was one of the elect. He threw that away by his own free will.
Oh really? If he is not guilty of his sin, then he must be in heaven. God would never condemn Judas for only doing what he was made to do.
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NDfan
Guest
Sorry but that couldn’t be more incorrect. Taking up our own cross is not about suffering for our sins in some place between this life and heaven. Christ told us we would have to take up our own cross because as HIS followers we would suffer.
As far as Christ not paying the price for our non-mortal sins that again is incorrect. Scripture tells us that Christ’s work at the cross is the one time payment for sins of all mankind. That would include the murderer who did repent. Jesus did not appease GOD for our sinful nature. HE paid the price for the sins we’ve committed.
PEACE
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sola_scriptura
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sola_scriptura
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So you think God doesn’t harden hearts? What about the Pharaoh, what about Joseph’s brothers (Jacob’s other sons)?Originally Posted by Mickey forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Judas was one of the elect. He threw that away by his own free will.
Oh really? If he is not guilty of his sin, then he must be in heaven. God would never condemn Judas for only doing what he was made to do.
Remember what Joseph said to his brothers in Egypt when he forgave them for selling him into slavery?
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distracted
Guest
How do you know? Have you died & been to the other side??
Catholics would agree… Only problem is: most people aren’t joined to Christ very well… hence the need for Purgatory… (1Cor 3;13, Rev 21:27, etc)
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distracted
Guest
No one is arguing that Christ is the one who purges from sin… We are apparently only in disagreement as to How he does that… Catholics say that if one is not fully purged in this life (most are not, from what the saints say)… they must be fully purified in Purgatory. God will not allow anything impure into Heaven… (Rev 21:27)
We are to glorify God in our bodies. What our bodies are involved in affects the soul & vice versa…
believing in Christ, by itself, is of no use…
Hitler may have believed in Christ… He ranted about how the Jews killed Christ… (though he could have said that just wo win the confidence of the christians in Germany. He used psychology to control the masses [Freud, etc…]). Only God knows what any given person really believes… so… but he did soiund like a Christian sometimes… In any case, the Bible says that Faith without works is dead… Even the demons believe & tremble…
a lot of so called christians believe in abortion… and other terrible evils… Believing means nothing, if not put into action. If one believes, one WILL act… By their fruits you will know them…
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distracted
Guest
This is a sometimes dangeorus notion… Jesus said to those who did “mighty deeds” for Him, “Away from me, i never knew you…” He gave us His actual Presence, but not very many go There & spend time with Him. When i am There, my life (sins, etc.) look totally different to me than when i am not There… What i think is a big deal may not be to Him and some seemingly small thing… well, u get the picture…People make a lot of asusmptions about Jesus… but how does anyone know much about a person when s/he doesn’t spend much time with him/her???
This is wht i mean… you say this because you have probably never been in his actual, physcial presence… in the Church…
We have no choice but to accept that truth… but doing so does not change the fact that sin damages the soul… the relationship with God… It is rather scientific… If you fall into a mud puddle, you are going to get diryt… doesn’t matter if you intended to fall in, were pushed in… or what… You still need a bath…
no one is arguing that… But one must be IN His love… and one cannot be perfectly in his love when one has un-absolved sins on his soul… The wages of sin is death… death of close intimacy with God… You cannot love God and mammon… you will either hate the one and love the other… (etc)
but not just through saying God i am sorry… More is required than just that… Although that is the beginning… of purification
don’t know why you say this… Who said anything about turning in on self??
reen12
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