More about Once Saved Always Saved..

[brkn1]

How do you know? Have you died & been to the other side?? Catholics would agree… Only problem is: most people aren’t joined to Christ very well… hence the need for Purgatory… (1Cor 3;13, Rev 21:27, etc)

I could ask the same question about “purgatory”. There seems to be quite a bit of dogma about something on “the other side” that is not even mentioned in the Bible.

I do know that the Bible is clear about our “body of death” (Romans 7:24).
I also know that it is Jesus Christ our Lord that took care of that problem by Himself.
There would be no need for Jesus Christ’s one Sacrifice, if there was some other way that we could be purged of any of our sins by our own suffering. The smallest sin on our part could not be paid for by an eternity in Hell. Jesus, alone, had to come to pay the infinitely complete price for His sheep. It mocks His perfect Sacrifice to say more payment is needed later.

 

[Spirithound]

Spirithound good stuff. But I would be careful to say pull out the Greek dictionaries and look up something. This will only give you a philosophical answer.

Latin dictionary then?

I don’t believe we exist separate from our soul. Our soul contains the spirit of GOD which gives us life. We cannot live without our soul. But GOD also gives us our free will. So the question then would be where does the free will reside? In the soul, the heart, the mind?? We have to choose to do something wrong unless of course we don’t realize what we are doing. So then the question becomes what initiates the wicked action? The soul? I say no it is the mind. This is what I meant when I said wicked at heart. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the heart itself carries out wicked actions. But I also don’t believe that the soul wills into action wicked behavior. It comes from your mind which has the free will.

I’m not entirely convinced that Jesus was “separating”, so to speak, the heart, mind, and soul in that passage. God the Father is an entirely spiritual Being, perfected and complete in every way, correct? In fact, God is so perfect that 2 of His Attributes are actually distinct Persons within the one Godhead. Jesus, God the Son, is the Word, the Intellect of God. God the Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son, or, to speak metaphorically, the Heart. We are in God’s image, our spirit-soul is modelled after Him. So, the heart and the mind must be one with the soul, even if ours are not, and can never be so perfect as to be a distinct person.
Coming back to your paragraph above, I don’t think we can use language such that free will “resides” somewhere, but rather, what is it a function of? Certainly it is a function of the mind, but as I’ve shown above, the mind comes part-and-parcel with the spirit. If we want to say that the mind functions apart from the soul, then we have the problem of concluding that there are multiple sources of the body’s energies. What runs the mind? Does the mind think on its own? Do we have a dual nature?

Jesus separates the heart mind and soul in Matthew when HE tells us to love the Lord your GOD with all your heart mind and soul. But in Luke 12 when Jesus tells the parable of the rich fool HE states that GOD says your soul is required tonight. That implies that the soul will be taken from the body and the body will no longer have life. We also read in scripture that we receive new glorified bodies like Christ which gets re-united with our soul. Under your premise this new glorified body would still commit sin because a soul that is capable of willing into action a sinful act will still exist without purgation.

Ah, but you forget I’m Catholic, I believe the soul is purged of all its desire to sin after death (if perfect charity has not yet been attained)(and if the soul is so disposed). So when our souls are reunited with our glorified bodies, no sin will be willed by the soul.

I would argue that our glorified bodies when joined with our soul are already purged of sin because GOD is going to eliminate sin completely. We are made pure and holy before GOD by Christ as stated by Paul in 1st Corinthians.

PEACE

Peace

 

[MrS]

I could ask the same question about “purgatory”. There seems to be quite a bit of dogma about something on “the other side” that is not even mentioned in the Bible.

I do know that the Bible is clear about our “body of death” (Romans 7:24).
I also know that it is Jesus Christ our Lord that took care of that problem by Himself.
There would be no need for Jesus Christ’s one Sacrifice, if there was some other way that we could be purged of any of our sins by our own suffering. The smallest sin on our part could not be paid for by an eternity in Hell. Jesus, alone, had to come to pay the infinitely complete price for His sheep. It mocks His perfect Sacrifice to say more payment is needed later.

so… you wrongly assume that unless it is in the Catholic Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit…then it can’t be true. However, the Catholic Church has also been inspired by the Holy Spirit since our birthday on Pentecost.

Yes God can do it all Himself…He does not “need” our help.

However, it is His plan to have us cooperate. We do so in procreation, we do so in answering for our own sins. His suffering, death, and resurrection provide not only the grace to attain salvation, but the grace to work it out in fear and trembling.

I dare say, since nothing, nothing, unclean will enter the gates of heaven… you must be perfect at the hour of death. I hardly think that is the case for most of us.

You should be actually thanking God, not only for His sacrifice, but for His mercy in providing for the “final rinse” as Fr. Groeschel has said.

.

 

[cazayoux]

Indeed Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. Do you think Judas’ betrayal came as a surprise to Jesus? He knew He would be betrayed; and God decreed by whom. This was all part of God’s eternal plan.

God knowing what will happen is a different idea that controlling what will happen.
God knew Judas would betray.
This is very different from saying God made Judas betray.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Sorry but that couldn’t be more incorrect. **Taking up our own cross is not about suffering for our sins **in some place between this life and heaven. Christ told us we would have to take up our own cross because as HIS followers we would suffer.

As far as Christ not paying the price for our non-mortal sins that again is incorrect. Scripture tells us that Christ’s work at the cross is the one time payment for sins of all mankind. That would include the murderer who did repent. Jesus did not appease GOD for our sinful nature. HE paid the price for the sins we’ve committed.

PEACE

Help me to understand this passage.
Col 1:24
[24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

 

[cazayoux]

Christ did it all. That in itself is the entire crux of Christianity.

Is there *anything *that is required from us?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Flesh is always presented as opposed to the spirit.

I think it is a mistake to always see the ‘physical’ as bad.
I mean, we are created in his image, right?

I would say that the flesh is presented as different from or separate from the spirit, but not always in a negative way.

I had mentioned the following to you in another thread, I believe.
James 2:26
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

So the body, WITH the spirit, is alive!
While it is the spirit that gives life, it’s not in opposition to the body in a one-is-good and one-is-bad way.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Moreover, the idea of purgatory has been terribly abused by the church in past centuries (it was partly behind Luther’s 95 thesis).

Yes … there were bad practices.
Glad we cleared that up back then.

michel

 

[sola_scriptura]

God knowing what will happen is a different idea that controlling what will happen.
God knew Judas would betray.
This is very different from saying God made Judas betray.

michel

Hello Michel:

This is an age old debate – whether divine foreknowledge precedes providence or vice versa. Augustine, as Calvin believed providence precedes the knowledge of God (or His ability to see the future).

The main reasoning is due to their understanding of grace as expressed by verses like Ephesians 2:8.

If we are saved by grace, and not as a result of our own desires or efforts, then foreknowledge of our future response cannot form the basis for election. If God gives grace universally and equally to all mankind – and merely looks down the tunnel of time to see who accepts Christ and who does not, then it is really our own will and endeavor responsible for our salvation. This doesn’t seem to be how salvation is presented in Scripture.

Moreover, from a metaphysical perspective imagine if God were beholden to His foreknowledge? If foreknowledge came first then we must imagine all of God’s actions trail this foreknowledge. In other words it’s hard to imagine where providence would fit in at all?

Additionally, we know from a practical perspective that not all people have or will be exposed to the Gospel message. How can they believe the word if they’ve never heard it (see Romans 10:14)? Therefore, all aspects of grace cannot be said to have been universally given by God.

I personally came to this view slowly. For years after really devoting myself to Christ I held tightly to a very absolutist view of human free will. Eventually the logic of Calvin and (to a lesser extent) Augustine became undeniable. I remember spending months harping over this question – how can salvation be the fruit of God’s view of the future. Ultimately I concluded it cannot. While God knows the future He also ordained the future. Even the days of our existence are numbered by God.

Look at all the time-lines set forth in Scripture. 40 days, 40 years, etc. All of human history is written by divine decree. God declared the end from the beginning. In other words everything that happens is the result of an eternal divine decree.

 

[cazayoux]

We are grafted into the church, in a corporate sense, through baptism. However, subjectively we are only saved by faith – which is given by God not wrought through our own efforts or endeavor.

You are saying here that it is not baptism itself that saves you.
This is in direct contradiction to scripture.
1 Pet 3:21
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

michel

 

[sola_scriptura]

I think it is a mistake to always see the ‘physical’ as bad.
I mean, we are created in his image, right?

I would say that the flesh is presented as different from or separate from the spirit, but not always in a negative way.

I had mentioned the following to you in another thread, I believe.
James 2:26
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

So the body, WITH the spirit, is alive!
While it is the spirit that gives life, it’s not in opposition to the body in a one-is-good and one-is-bad way.

michel

Yes indeed – only by a spiritual connection with God by grace through faith can our spirit overcome the passions of the flesh.

**Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:25).

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3).

and those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Ephesians 2:3).

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts (Romans 13:14).

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul (1 Peter 2:11).**

 

[sola_scriptura]

You are saying here that it is not baptism itself that saves you.
This is in direct contradiction to scripture.
1 Pet 3:21
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

michel

IMO Faith is required as well.

 

[cazayoux]

Thanks for the good response.

I don’t need to worry about what God will do with those that never hear the Word. I’m sure God has that covered.
If all is already determined, why do we even concern ourselves with Christianity?
We are either already written in the book of life or not, right?

In scripture, we are told what we must do to be saved, or to have eternal life.
I have the choice to either do those things or not… even if God already knows what I will do.

If I say God is not intervening in my life, that would be ridiculous.
This is the reason I pray.
We have SO many examples of where God actually intervenes, but this does not mean he is intervening in every action… He does not will for sin.
If God willed man to sin, why send his only son to save us from sin?

The first time I read the OT through, there was a theme that I noticed.
When His people turn away from (reject) Him, they fall away from His grace… and he lets them fall pretty far sometimes.
However, the MOMENT they turn back to Him, He is there for them (like a father should be).

This is a relationship *between *God and man … not God’s puppetshow of mankind.

Cheers, brother.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Faith is required as well.

I agree!
Scripture tells us quite a lot is required, actually.
Being Christian is really the ‘easy life’.
Faith is absolutely required, but it is not the *most *important thing.
If you have faith, but do not love, are you saved?

michel

 

[sola_scriptura]

Thanks for the good response.

I don’t need to worry about what God will do with those that never hear the Word. I’m sure God has that covered.
If all is already determined, why do we even concern ourselves with Christianity?
We are either already written in the book of life or not, right?

In scripture, we are told what we must do to be saved, or to have eternal life.
I have the choice to either do those things or not… even if God already knows what I will do.

If I say God is not intervening in my life, that would be ridiculous.
This is the reason I pray.
We have SO many examples of where God actually intervenes, but this does not mean he is intervening in every action… He does not will for sin.
If God willed man to sin, why send his only son to save us from sin?

The first time I read the OT through, there was a theme that I noticed.
When His people turn away from (reject) Him, they fall away from His grace… and he lets them fall pretty far sometimes.
However, the MOMENT they turn back to Him, He is there for them (like a father should be).

This is a relationship *between *God and man … not God’s puppetshow of mankind.

Cheers, brother.

michel

I agree there is a relationship between God and man. However, those who God has determined to save will obey Him. We will obey His commandments though we will occasionally slip up. We will pray, seek fellowship, confess, and our hearts will change. God does this we do not do it ourselves. God intervenes in the lives of His elect to ensure we persevere. However, you’re right to say these choices are still ours to make – while at the same time God decreed them and carries out His will through active intervention.

Imagine all the extrinsic forces in our lives. Our rearing, our jobs, family, friends, and even the little accidental things that occur to us each day. All of these things shape our choices whether we realize it or not. Even bad events are used for the good of those who love God, those predestined by God.

 

[cazayoux]

Yes indeed – only by a spiritual connection with God by grace through faith can our spirit overcome the passions of the flesh.

No argument at all that we see being ‘in-the-flesh’ or ‘of-the-flesh’ many times as being associated with sinfulness.

However, we need to be careful here though by equating all flesh as sinful.

Gen 2:24
[24] Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Gen 7:15
[15] They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.

Gen 9:17
[17] God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.”

Gen 17:11,13-14
[11] You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
[14] Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Ex 12:8
[8] They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Note that Jesus is the sacrificed lamb.
This is a Catholic’s connection to the Eucharist.
(but that is a topic for another time)

2 Kngs 5:10
[10] And Eli’sha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored, and you shall be clean.”

So flesh *can *be clean.

Ps 136:25
[25] he who gives food to all flesh,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.

He feeds our flesh out of love.

Ps 145:21
[21] My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD,
and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

If flesh itself is evil, it cannot bless anything.

Isa 66:23
[23] From new moon to new moon,
and from sabbath to sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
says the LORD.

Here, the ‘flesh’ worshiping God is not evil.

Jer 32:27
[27] "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too hard for me?

Is God the god of sinfulness or righteousness?
‘flesh’ does not always equal ‘sin’ in scripture.

2 Cor 4:11
[11] For while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Gal 2:20
[20] I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Eph 5:29
[29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,

Phil 1:21-24
[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
[23] I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
[24] But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

Better to be in heaven, but not that the flesh is portrayed as evil here.

Col 1:24
[24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

It looks like my flesh might actually have a fruitful purpose: to complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of HIS body.

Phlm 1:16
[16] no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

Not ‘flesh’ versus ‘the Lord’.

There are more examples of where ‘flesh’ is not equated with ‘sin’ or ‘evil’, but I’ll wrap up with this…

John 1:14
[14] And the Word became **flesh **and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

 

[cazayoux]

Imagine all the extrinsic forces in our lives. Our rearing, our jobs, family, friends, and even the little accidental things that occur to us each day. All of these things shape **our **choices whether we realize it or not. Even bad events are used for the good of those who love God, those predestined by God.

I agree that these things are not just coincidences.
When I look back on my life and my faith journey, I can see where God was involved.
I call these ‘signal graces’.
I don’t think God is puppeteering every moment of my life, though.
Does God really care if I drink Coke or Pepsi?

But like you said above in bold, the choices were still mine.
I don’t think God decided ahead of time that I would make the choice, though.

I can see in my life times when there was something I needed to do … or choose to do… and I didn’t … opportunity came again … and again before I followed what I knew was right and did it.
I think God brought to me the choice, not the decision.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I agree!
Scripture tells us quite a lot is required, actually.
Being Christian is really the ‘easy life’.
Faith is absolutely required, but it is not the *most *important thing.
If you have faith, but do not love, are you saved?

michel

Oops … meant to say …

Being Christian isn’t really the ‘easy life’.

 

[brkn1]

so… you wrongly assume that unless it is in the Catholic Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit…then it can’t be true. However, the Catholic Church has also been inspired by the Holy Spirit since our birthday on Pentecost.

Yes God can do it all Himself…He does not “need” our help.

However, it is His plan to have us cooperate. We do so in procreation, we do so in answering for our own sins. His suffering, death, and resurrection provide not only the grace to attain salvation, but the grace to work it out in fear and trembling.

I dare say, since nothing, nothing, unclean will enter the gates of heaven… you must be perfect at the hour of death. I hardly think that is the case for most of us.

You should be actually thanking God, not only for His sacrifice, but for His mercy in providing for the “final rinse” as Fr. Groeschel has said.

.

“answering for our own sins” will not provide for any cleansing of our sins. If our suffering in “purgatory” had any sin-removal effect, then that would make Jesus’ Sacrifice unnecessary.

Paul spoke of the saved in Christ being raised, from “corruptible” to “incorruptible”, “in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye, at the last trump”. There is no time for that drawn out purging that some claim is necessary.

The question, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” proves that all who die in Christ do not die in their sins. Paul explains that “The sting of death is sin;…”.
That means that there is no sin on a saved person’s soul at death. Jesus took care of that on Calvary. Jesus took all of His sheep’s sin upon Himself as He redeemed them in His Perfect Sacrifice.

 

[cazayoux]

There is no time for that drawn out purging that some claim is necessary.

2 points.
1 - The church does not define any time whatsoever for this. It can be an instantaneous thing.
2 - Purgatory is outside of time.

michel