E
estesbob
Guest
But choose your fights. Some need to be fought , some not. All liturgical abuses are not equal.
- Status
L
lizaanne
Guest
C
chicago
Guest
The vessels can be purified following Mass, when everything is being put back in place. So, unless it was forgotten entirely…
And, yet, there is often a need to be “wise as serpants and innocent as doves” in order to be effective. Rightous flag waving, alone, often doesn’t do anything but anger everyone involved to the point that no progress is made and heels just get dug in deeper.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
E
estesbob
Guest
I dont disgaree with that. But I would be much more concerned , say, with a Priest who changes the words in the Eucharistic Prayer than I would one asks a small congregation to stand around the altar. In the former i would write the Bishop immedialtely, in the latter i would do nothing.(alhough I never stand around the altar when the priest invites the congregation to do so.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Yes it is—and don’t fall for the stuff the abuse enablers dish out.
L
lizaanne
Guest
So - in the case of a high school Mass where children are learning by what they are shown and experience, even though you yourself would not stand around the altar, are ok with the children being taught an inappropriate activity at the Mass? Just because it’s not worth saying anything?
Man - I would be a very very unhappy mother had this been my child, and you darn well better believe they would be hearing from me about it. Children are sent to Catholic schools to learn the Faith, and the pinnacle of our Faith is the Mass. Abuse only causes confusion and error in understanding. As the very existence of this thread in the first place is a testament to.
~Liza
E
estesbob
Guest
Ill tell you what-take a clipboard to Mass and wrtie down each and every misstep and then send a daily copy to the Bishop. I am sure he will appreciate your diligence.So - in the case of a high school Mass where children are learning by what they are shown and experience, even though you yourself would not stand around the altar, are ok with the children being taught an inappropriate activity at the Mass? Just because it’s not worth saying anything?
Man - I would be a very very unhappy mother had this been my child, and you darn well better believe they would be hearing from me about it. Children are sent to Catholic schools to learn the Faith, and the pinnacle of our Faith is the Mass. Abuse only causes confusion and error in understanding. As the very existence of this thread in the first place is a testament to.
~Liza
W
Walking_Home
Guest
So - in the case of a high school Mass where children are learning by what they are shown and experience, even though you yourself would not stand around the altar, are ok with the children being taught an inappropriate activity at the Mass? Just because it’s not worth saying anything?
Man - I would be a very very unhappy mother had this been my child, and you darn well better believe they would be hearing from me about it. Children are sent to Catholic schools to learn the Faith, and the pinnacle of our Faith is the Mass. Abuse only causes confusion and error in understanding. As the very existence of this thread in the first place is a testament to.
~Liza
Right you are—and again—do not let some beat you into submission (by various means) to keep you from speaking out against the manipulation and abuses of the Mass.
C
chicago
Guest
What I think needs to be kept in mind is that we are dealing with inherantly human interactions, not mere legal detail adherance.
So, in any approach to things like liturgy some allowance needs to be made for the subtleties which are intangible and can’t always be formally prescribed. That isn’t to try justifying delicts, but merely to note that the expectation of an absolutely ideal liturgy might be something which doesn’t exist. Something is going to bother someone.
Similarly, in trying to “correct abuse”, there is a way to go about it which respects the real circumstances of human interaction. Mere insistance about “obedience to the rules” or yelling “abuse” at every instance will likely get you nowhere. Some real prudence in knowing when to do what and how to step back is helpful in accomplishing something positive in the long term. Otherwise, you may feel justified but will probably lose both the battle and the war.
So, in any approach to things like liturgy some allowance needs to be made for the subtleties which are intangible and can’t always be formally prescribed. That isn’t to try justifying delicts, but merely to note that the expectation of an absolutely ideal liturgy might be something which doesn’t exist. Something is going to bother someone.
Similarly, in trying to “correct abuse”, there is a way to go about it which respects the real circumstances of human interaction. Mere insistance about “obedience to the rules” or yelling “abuse” at every instance will likely get you nowhere. Some real prudence in knowing when to do what and how to step back is helpful in accomplishing something positive in the long term. Otherwise, you may feel justified but will probably lose both the battle and the war.
T
Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
What I’m looking for now is advice on how to best deal with this- I am no longer going behind the altar (do I need to go to Confession for the times I did?) and I am hoping someone will notice and ask about it… Hopefully I can go from there.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
It seems a major problem has been the “human interactions”.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.
[9.] Finally, abuses are often based on ignorance, in that they involve a rejection of those elements whose deeper meaning is not understood and whose antiquity is not recognized. For “the liturgical prayers, orations and songs are pervaded by the inspiration and impulse” of the Sacred Scriptures themselves, “and it is from these that the actions and signs receive their meaning”.[20] As for the visible signs “which the Sacred Liturgy uses in order to signify the invisible divine realities, they have been chosen by Christ or by the Church”.[21] Finally, the structures and forms of the sacred celebrations according to each of the Rites of both East and West are in harmony with the practice of the universal Church also as regards practices received universally from apostolic and unbroken tradition,[22] which it is the Church’s task to transmit faithfully and carefully to future generations. All these things are wisely safeguarded and protected by the liturgical norms.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.
[9.] Finally, abuses are often based on ignorance, in that they involve a rejection of those elements whose deeper meaning is not understood and whose antiquity is not recognized. For “the liturgical prayers, orations and songs are pervaded by the inspiration and impulse” of the Sacred Scriptures themselves, “and it is from these that the actions and signs receive their meaning”.[20] As for the visible signs “which the Sacred Liturgy uses in order to signify the invisible divine realities, they have been chosen by Christ or by the Church”.[21] Finally, the structures and forms of the sacred celebrations according to each of the Rites of both East and West are in harmony with the practice of the universal Church also as regards practices received universally from apostolic and unbroken tradition,[22] which it is the Church’s task to transmit faithfully and carefully to future generations. All these things are wisely safeguarded and protected by the liturgical norms.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
I do not think --you need to go to confession. Just charitably speak to the priest about your concern --that he is allowing things contrary to the Church.
B
Brendan
Guest
E
estesbob
Guest
Gee Father missed a word in the offertory today. If I dont report that am I going to hell?
B
Brendan
Guest
If Father missed a word, it’s neither his sin or yours.
If Father deliberately left out a word,as in a willful choice not to say what the rubrics demand, that is disobedience. One has a duty to correct that.
The particular gravity of the disobediece is a factor in your personal culpability.
Remember, the Correction of Sinners is a Spiritual Work of Mercy, are we not called to show Mercy to others?
C
chicago
Guest
Alright, then the question is one of how to best go about this. It is easy to say, “One has a duty to correct that.” But, ultimately, the only one who can truly “correct” it is the offender. Someone else can call it to attention, but the abuse may still continue. So there remains the matter of what best can be done by the person who observes the problem in order to meet a more happy end. And here is where there is likely room for legitimate differences of opinion in practice.
E
estesbob
Guest
Well since we can’t know if he did it deliberatley or not shouldnt I report him just in case? After all we are called on to report ALL liturcial abuse. I guess i could ask him but a liturgical abuser is probably a liar also., wouldnt you agree? Best to call the Bishop,
W
Walking_Home
Guest
The Church has provide the avenue for addressing the problems. The difference in opinion it seems —is the continual trivialising of abuses so that they will not be corrected.
- Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
C
chicago
Guest
I have to wonder how many people would do this sort of thing with their spouse.
“Honey, I notice that you were unfaithful to norm #458 in the general handbook on child rearing. I really do need to insist that you correct that minor matter RIGHT NOW lest I report you to the spousal/parental oversight authorities who, I hope, will demand your removal from my marital embrace and dissolution of your parental rights until that time at which you repent.”
Yeah, that’ll go over really well. And either get you slapped or handed divorce papers.
Perhaps we can use some wise decorum, then, in dealing with people in the Church with a similar deserving respect rather than simply engaging in matters as if we are state prosecutors ultimately responsible for regulation of all matters imperfect.
“Honey, I notice that you were unfaithful to norm #458 in the general handbook on child rearing. I really do need to insist that you correct that minor matter RIGHT NOW lest I report you to the spousal/parental oversight authorities who, I hope, will demand your removal from my marital embrace and dissolution of your parental rights until that time at which you repent.”
Yeah, that’ll go over really well. And either get you slapped or handed divorce papers.
Perhaps we can use some wise decorum, then, in dealing with people in the Church with a similar deserving respect rather than simply engaging in matters as if we are state prosecutors ultimately responsible for regulation of all matters imperfect.
- Status