More liturgical abuse?

[chicago]

The Church has provide the avenue for addressing the problems. The difference in opinion it seems —is the continual trivialising of abuses so that they will not be corrected.

This is assuming that such steps are the best and most effective route for correcting the abuse. They may or may not be.

 

[Asperges_Me]

Well since we can’t know if he did it deliberatley or not shouldnt I report him just in case? After all we are called on to report ALL liturcial abuse. I guess i could ask him but a liturgical abuser is probably a liar also., wouldnt you agree? Best to call the Bishop,

I think that it is pretty obvious if a priest gets a confused look on his face or starts at the wrong place. A good indicator would be whether that particular deviation is habitual. One priest I know always leaves out the "Praecepitis salutaribus moniti… " in front of the Pater Noster. Every time. No exceptions. It would be improbable that he “forgets” every time.

Funny that in the TLM, among the many, many priests I’ve seen celebrate it, I’ve never ever experienced anything left out. Ever! And I can follow pretty well. Now why do you think there is so much difference between the TLM and the NO?

 

[estesbob]

I think that it is pretty obvious if a priest gets a confused look on his face or starts at the wrong place. A good indicator would be whether that particular deviation is habitual. One priest I know always leaves out the "Praecepitis salutaribus moniti… " in front of the Pater Noster. Every time. No exceptions. It would be improbable that he “forgets” every time.

Funny that in the TLM, among the many, many priests I’ve seen celebrate it, I’ve never ever experienced anything left out. Ever! And I can follow pretty well. Now why do you think there is so much difference between the TLM and the NO?

In Rome in the days near the end of the Republic if the Pontifex Maximus made even the most minor error in a ceremony he had to start over. (Sulla had great fun with this when he appointed a man to the position that stuttered). I think many in this thread would like to return to those days.

 

[lizaanne]

I have to wonder how many people would do this sort of thing with their spouse.

“Honey, I notice that you were unfaithful to norm #458 in the general handbook on child rearing. I really do need to insist that you correct that minor matter RIGHT NOW lest I report you to the spousal/parental oversight authorities who, I hope, will demand your removal from my marital embrace and dissolution of your parental rights until that time at which you repent.”

Yeah, that’ll go over really well. And either get you slapped or handed divorce papers.

I don’t think this is funny, and it completely trivializes the matter at hand.

We are talking about THE MASS here people!! This is not some children’s play at school - this is where our consecrated holy priests bring Jesus Christ into our very presence!!! Why is it that so many are willing to just shrug and walk away when abuse happens? I should think that if there is any reason for having a clip board at Mass then the Bishop should absolutely be extremely interested in the situation, and fix it immediately.

Dang - I would have thought that with all the other petty “stuff” people have to deal with in this politically correct world, that at the very least they would want and demand that the Mass they attend is done according to the letter of the law. And why so many just don’t care is something I will never understand - it is so very sad, and I think a very telling commentary on the Catholic population.

~Liza

 

[Walking_Home]

This is assuming that such steps are the best and most effective route for correcting the abuse. They may or may not be.

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Really chicago. It is more credible to follow the steps the Church has given—then to fall victim to those who minimize the problems. The inaction of the people has only served to perpetuate the continual abuse of the Mass.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t think this is funny, and it completely trivializes the matter at hand.

We are talking about THE MASS here people!! This is not some children’s play at school - this is where our consecrated holy priests bring Jesus Christ into our very presence!!! Why is it that so many are willing to just shrug and walk away when abuse happens? I should think that if there is any reason for having a clip board at Mass then the Bishop should absolutely be extremely interested in the situation, and fix it immediately.

Dang - I would have thought that with all the other petty **** people have to deal with in this politically correct world, that at the very least they would want and demand that the Mass they attend is done according to the letter of the law.** And why so many just don’t care is something I will never understand** - it is so very sad, and I think a very telling commentary on the Catholic population.

~Liza

Because most of us are there to recieve the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior. We are not interested in parsing every word the Priest says nor playing a “gotcha” game when we should be worshipping God…

No one is arguing that egregious abuses should be not reported-just the idea that we need to report them no matter how minor.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just want to be sure our definitions are correct here;

A few

Liberal

a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2.
a. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
b. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
thefreedictionary.com/liberal

Jim

 

[Walking_Home]

Because most of us are there to recieve the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior. We are not interested in parsing every word the Priest says nor playing a “gotcha” game when we should be worshipping God…

No one is arguing that egregious abuses should be not reported-just the idea that we need to report them no matter how minor.

---

Those who fall victim to not address the minor things—will more than likely be a victim to not addressing the major things.

I do not believe we here are advocating reporting “one” instance of a priest making a mistake. If that mistake is occuring more than once–it is an act which needs to be addressed. Even a “minor” abuse —if continued then becomes major in that it is habitually done.

 

[Silver_Thread]

What is becoming a “custom” is to manipulate the Mass.

I agree! All this judging hearts…doing it out of love etc. is simple rhetoric. The original thread was simply pointing out an obvious abuse. The priest washes his hands. They are cleansed to prepare for the consecration of the Precisous Body and Blood. Now he goes out and shakes hands??? The faithful are not to self administer the Precious Body and Blood to themselves!! Period. And the Bishops “”"" Cannot""""" change that!!! I had the same issue in my parish/ I was told that the Bishops allowed it. A month later instructions were issued from Rome to the contrary. If it is still done anywhere, it is done so out of ignorance or disobedience.:

 

[estesbob]

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Those who fall victim to not address the minor things—will more than likely be a victim to not addressing the major things.

I do not believe we here are advocating reporting “one” instance of a priest making a mistake. If that mistake is occuring more than once–it is an act which needs to be addressed. Even a “minor” abuse —if continued then becomes major in that it is habitually done.

So we dont report ALL instances of Liturgical abuse? Thats quite a change from what you said before.

And if we report an abuse to the Bishop and he does nothnig about it should we submit it to the Pope?

 

[Asperges_Me]

In Rome in the days near the end of the Republic if the Pontifex Maximus made even the most minor error in a ceremony he had to start over. (Sulla had great fun with this when he appointed a man to the position that stuttered). I think many in this thread would like to return to those days.

I think you took my moderate response of habitual omissions and took it to the extreme. I dont think that anyone here is suggesting that a priest has to start over if he accidently leaves anything out. He should simply be making his most reasonable attempt to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the Church intends him to do. If only all priests and liturgists humbly did that.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Silver Thread

I agree! All this judging hearts…doing it out of love etc. is simple rhetoric. The original thread was simply pointing out an obvious abuse. The priest washes his hands. They are cleansed to prepare for the consecration of the Precisous Body and Blood. Now he goes out and shakes hands???

The purpose of the priest washing his hands at the Mass is not for the practice of good hygine. Its a ritual sanctification.

Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin.(Psalm 51)

The faithful are not to self administer the Precious Body and Blood to themselves!!

In a small group, they are not self communicating as defined. The priest is the minister, who offered the cup to the communicants.

In a larger group, the priest would normaly ask for an extraordinary minister of the cup, to assist him.

Jim

 

[Silver_Thread]

Can you provide a definition of what a liberal is?

Jim

Rather than giving a definition that you are already aware of, lets just say that If I had your picture I would post it along side the definition>

 

[chicago]

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Really chicago. It is more credible to follow the steps the Church has given—then to fall victim to those who minimize the problems. The inaction of the people has only served to perpetuate the continual abuse of the Mass.

And how far has complaining to priests and griping to bishops incessantly gotten us?

What it usually leads to is not so much correction as dismissal and marginalization. But, then, some just like to play the martyr.

 

[Walking_Home]

So we dont report ALL instances of Liturgical abuse? Thats quite a change from what you said before.

And if we report an abuse to the Bishop and he does nothnig about it should we submit it to the Pope?

---

Actually no—The Church has give us a mandate—to report All types of liturgical abuse without prejudice. A priest can make a mistake–this would be indicated by his not continual duplication of the “mistake”. If the “mistake” is duplicated then this does give in to abuse.

If after the first try–the bishop does nothing–I would try again with the bishop. If after the second try–the bishop continues to not do nothing --the next step would be Rome.

 

[estesbob]

And how far has complaining to priests and griping to bishops incessantly gotten us?

What it usually leads to is not so much correction as dismissal and marginalization. But, then, some just like to play the martyr.

The probolem is when you inundate them with reams of minor stuff they ignore you when you send in something serious. Like the little boy who cried wolf.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Rather than giving a definition that you are already aware of, lets just say that If I had your picture I would post it along side the definition>

So by that, I could put your picture next to fundamentalist?

fun·da·men·tal·ism

A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views.

Jim

 

[chicago]

I don’t think this is funny, and it completely trivializes the matter at hand.

We are talking about THE MASS here people!! This is not some children’s play at school - this is where our consecrated holy priests bring Jesus Christ into our very presence!!! Why is it that so many are willing to just shrug and walk away when abuse happens? I should think that if there is any reason for having a clip board at Mass then the Bishop should absolutely be extremely interested in the situation, and fix it immediately.

Dang - I would have thought that with all the other petty “stuff” people have to deal with in this politically correct world, that at the very least they would want and demand that the Mass they attend is done according to the letter of the law. And why so many just don’t care is something I will never understand - it is so very sad, and I think a very telling commentary on the Catholic population.

~Liza

And what is the Mass? It is the meeting place of God and man who are called to live in union of life with Him. Not unlike a marriage (which is its image of that supernatural relationship on earth). Just as there is a certain decorum of discretion in such a relationship as marriage, there exists the same when it comes to the celebration of Mass. It isn’t a mere fulfilling of technical legal requirements. It is more of a dance where every exacting step isn’t always as significant as the overall whole, in the end.

I don’t think, then, that it is a matter of people “not caring”. Rather, it is a matter of where your focus is and how to best approach things in the larger scheme.

 

[chicago]

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Actually no—The Church has give us a mandate—to report All types of liturgical abuse without prejudice.

So should dioceses set up a special department of “Liturgical Abuse” which receives complaints on a daily basis and nags priests to fall in line?

If after the first try–the bishop does nothing–I would try again with the bishop. If after the second try–the bishop continues to not do nothing --the next step would be Rome.

And if Rome does nothing?

 

[chicago]

In a larger group, the priest would normaly ask for an extraordinary minister of the cup, to assist him.

Jim

Which, again, leads to the simple solution in this scenario. Offer and ask if you can be of service as an extraordinary minsiter of the cup. You probably won’t be denied. That fixes all! No need for complaints or corrections or whatever else. Just counteract the negative need with some positive action and everybody should be happy.