More on Is NFP sinful … and openness to new life

[jeanj]

I read the recent thread on this topic - and it touches on a debate DH and I are having.

We use NFP, both to conform to DH’s adherence to Catholic beliefs and me - as a non-Catholic - being unhappy with artificial contraception and wanting to adhere to DH beliefs.

Our current debate is whether we have sufficient reasons to avoid a pregnancy or whether we should be open to new life. We have 4 children, 5-13, and as our 5 year old is no longer our ‘little baby’, I get increasing pressure to prepare for a new pregnancy from DH who is in turn pressured ( I believe) by some members of his church community where large families seem to be the rule.

We are grateful to be comfortably off and do not have any economic reasons to avoid another pregnancy.I am healthy and have been lucky to have 4 straightforward pregnancies so cannot cite health as a reason to avoid.

At present, we use NFP very strictly observing all necessary abstinence with no lapses to using withdrawal or other methods.

So, our debate revolves round whether we continue to use NFP to avoid; whether we stop our abstinence to increase the likelihood of a pregnancy; or use NFP to seek a pregnancy.

I would like to focus my attention our 4 and them growing up … but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option? And also disappointing DH or even worse drawing him into my sin ?

Your views would be truly helpful in my thoughts – especially as a Catholic community you will all have a perspective on the moral issues as opposed to practical ones I have.

 

[TechieGuy]

… but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option?

I wouldn’t call raising four children an easy option and I wouldn’t call you selfish for choosing to focus on the four you have now.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is,periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

(NFP when used to avoid is a form of periodic continence)

As to if you have such a reason - that is something you would discern with your husband -before God- and you might wish to discuss too with your Husbands Pastor or another faithful Priest.

The Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church notes:

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.
2. The judgment concerning the interval of time between births, and that regarding the number of children, belongs to the spouses alone. This is one of their inalienable rights, to be exercised before God with due consideration of their obligations towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society[528].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[bitterhope]

This is something you need to talk to your husband about. What are his reasons for wanting another baby? If it is pressure from others, that is something he needs to deal with. If it is a desire of his own heart, it is something you two need to work on together. Are you able to work towards finding solutions together on both sides? I’m afraid you will not find the answers you need here.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Don’t seek your answer here. Honestly, you have no idea which random people are answering and everyone will have a different opinion. Talk to a holy priest or two if you must, then prayerfully discern with your husband and make sure the opinions of other churchgoers are completely disregarded. Your husband should tell those people to shove off (politely) if they are sticking their noses into your business.

 

[egretps]

Don’t seek your answer here. Honestly, you have no idea which random people are answering and everyone will have a different opinion. Talk to a holy priest or two if you must, then prayerfully discern with your husband and make sure the opinions of other churchgoers are completely disregarded. Your husband should tell those people to shove off (politely) if they are sticking their noses into your business.

Bitterhope’s response and a few others here are pretty much great answers.

In our marriage, we married later. We had multiple pregnancies, but we only have two children. I was batting 1000 with preeclampsia.

I found NFP to be excellent because like you, I didn’t want artificial birth control. Oh, and the discipline to not come together in the marital embrace paid off when we had serious unexpected illnesses in our first decade of marriage.

You have been blessed with many more than I have. I do have moments when I feel like we’re missing a few more little people sitting around the kitchen table.

My health was a serious consideration, and I was strongly advised to avoid pregnancy for years at a time. This cut down on the number of possible children I could have, since I married late.

We held off on even starting to have a family until we were out of debt. I was 4 months along with our oldest when we paid the last payment on my husband’s student loans. I was in my early 30s. Looking back I think we should have been more open to life earlier in our marriage. In our case in our early ‘child free’ working partner marriage I think NFP might have been used for illicit reasons. Being out of debt allowed me to stay home with the babies I had, but there are babies that never were because I wanted to have that luxury.

I discovered that carrying a baby to term wasn’t a given, nor was a ‘healthy’ pregnancy. I discovered MY plan of having at least 5 in my thirties and early forties wasn’t going to be so. The joke is on me financially too since my husband built us an enormous house to fill, and it’s just more space to clean instead of extra hugs.

My husband was all in favor of NFP, and he was also in favor of limiting our family size. Our income could have supported a dozen kids, but my health probably not.

So, you can see I tend to lean “Have as many kids as you can” camp. I wish I had done more with what I had during my fertile years.

God Bless you mama!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I read the recent thread on this topic - and it touches on a debate DH and I are having.

We use NFP, both to conform to DH’s adherence to Catholic beliefs and me - as a non-Catholic - being unhappy with artificial contraception and wanting to adhere to DH beliefs.

Our current debate is whether we have sufficient reasons to avoid a pregnancy or whether we should be open to new life. We have 4 children, 5-13, and as our 5 year old is no longer our ‘little baby’, I get increasing pressure to prepare for a new pregnancy from DH who is in turn pressured ( I believe) by some members of his church community where large families seem to be the rule.

We are grateful to be comfortably off and do not have any economic reasons to avoid another pregnancy.I am healthy and have been lucky to have 4 straightforward pregnancies so cannot cite health as a reason to avoid.

At present, we use NFP very strictly observing all necessary abstinence with no lapses to using withdrawal or other methods.

So, our debate revolves round whether we continue to use NFP to avoid; whether we stop our abstinence to increase the likelihood of a pregnancy; or use NFP to seek a pregnancy.

I would like to focus my attention our 4 and them growing up … but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option? And also disappointing DH or even worse drawing him into my sin ?

Your views would be truly helpful in my thoughts – especially as a Catholic community you will all have a perspective on the moral issues as opposed to practical ones I have.

1. Not a single poster can give you an answer. Bookcat gave you the Church info.
2. WHY ARENT YOU CATHOLIC!!???

 

[RomanoAmerio]

Dr. Taylor Marshall, a wise man on such matters (and one who has 10 children himself) once suggested that the bare minimum number of children for a Catholic family, based on demographic calculations and mandated by common justice, was 2.1.

How one produces 0.1 of a child is still a mystery to me.

 

[AdamP88]

I read the recent thread on this topic - and it touches on a debate DH and I are having.

We use NFP, both to conform to DH’s adherence to Catholic beliefs and me - as a non-Catholic - being unhappy with artificial contraception and wanting to adhere to DH beliefs.

Our current debate is whether we have sufficient reasons to avoid a pregnancy or whether we should be open to new life. We have 4 children, 5-13, and as our 5 year old is no longer our ‘little baby’, I get increasing pressure to prepare for a new pregnancy from DH who is in turn pressured ( I believe) by some members of his church community where large families seem to be the rule.

We are grateful to be comfortably off and do not have any economic reasons to avoid another pregnancy.I am healthy and have been lucky to have 4 straightforward pregnancies so cannot cite health as a reason to avoid.

At present, we use NFP very strictly observing all necessary abstinence with no lapses to using withdrawal or other methods.

So, our debate revolves round whether we continue to use NFP to avoid; whether we stop our abstinence to increase the likelihood of a pregnancy; or use NFP to seek a pregnancy.

I would like to focus my attention our 4 and them growing up … but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option? And also disappointing DH or even worse drawing him into my sin ?

Your views would be truly helpful in my thoughts – especially as a Catholic community you will all have a perspective on the moral issues as opposed to practical ones I have.

Well the Church leaves it very much open to the couple themselves to make a call on this. Though it does demand that there be “Just reason” for avoiding.

The question you should ask yourself is: Do we have what could be described as a just/justified reason for avoiding another pregnancy?

The Church does not teach that every time a married couple come together they must be trying to conceive. They only say that they should be open to new life in every marital act.

 

[Rau]

…We use NFP, both to conform to DH’s adherence to Catholic beliefs and me - as a non-Catholic - being unhappy with artificial contraception and wanting to adhere to DH beliefs.

It is commendable that you seek to support your husband’s beliefs in this way.

Our current debate is whether we have sufficient reasons to avoid a pregnancy or whether we should be open to new life. We have 4 children, 5-13, and as our 5 year old is no longer our ‘little baby’, I get increasing pressure to prepare for a new pregnancy from DH who is in turn pressured ( I believe) by some members of his church community where large families seem to be the rule.

The requirement to be “open to new life” is not a reference to taking steps to have another child whenever possible, nor to cease any steps that tend to avoid another child. Your current marital relations as you’ve described them are “open to life”.

Noone can tell you how many children you should plan on. And the idea of someone being pressured to have more children is outrageous and I’m glad to have never witnessed such a thing. While close friends knowing you well might joke in this direction, in general such behaviour is rude in the extreme - imagine if the couple being pressured were desperate for a child but were incapable.

I would like to focus my attention our 4 and them growing up … but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option? And also disappointing DH or even worse drawing him into my sin ?

Only you and DH can judge the relative merits here. There is no principle that says one can’t judge that your parenting could suffer with more children than 4, and thus you’d like to apply your focus to these children. The Church also calls parents to “responsible parenthood”. No-one can tell you what you should do, and only you can decide (and as a couple you have a right to be free from pressure from others).

 

[Rau]

The Church does not teach that every time a married couple come together they must be trying to conceive.

And more than that, the Church does not object to parents deciding when it is appropriate to defer (even indefinitely) more children.

They only say that they should be open to new life in every marital act.

Right - “open to new life” is a characteristic to be met by each marital act.

 

[jeanj]

Thank you all for replies so far … I will post fully in a few days when I see and consider all replies.

To answer points made so far, of course, I am discussing with DH and that must for me be the final decider, I guess it is the few in his community who are pushing us that I feel unhappy with - but he is swayed by their views and I do not wish to cause any upsets so listen respectfully

And for the poster who said ‘WHY ARENT YOU CATHOLIC???’ … can I say very gently and kindly, I do not think this in big capitals is helpful to anyone? If these posts are only for Catholics, then someone should say so?
I joined these forums as a non-Catholic to be able to understand and be in sympathy with DH faith and beliefs. I also go to his church - as he goes to mine- at times to give us both a place in our respective communities.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I was a little surprised by the comment, but I am sure I have misunderstood the sentiment behind it.

 

[Rau]

…And for the poster who said ‘WHY ARENT YOU CATHOLIC???’ … can I say very gently and kindly, I do not think this in big capitals is helpful to anyone? If these posts are only for Catholics, then someone should say so?..Sorry if this offends anyone, but I was a little surprised by the comment, but I am sure I have misunderstood the sentiment behind it.

Did you notice the great big smiley face [like this: ] he put after that remark? Like me, he admired your position and his remark was (IMHO) to be taken both jovially, and as a kind of complement.

 

[SusanneT]

I read the recent thread on this topic - and it touches on a debate DH and I are having.

We use NFP, both to conform to DH’s adherence to Catholic beliefs and me - as a non-Catholic - being unhappy with artificial contraception and wanting to adhere to DH beliefs.

Our current debate is whether we have sufficient reasons to avoid a pregnancy or whether we should be open to new life. We have 4 children, 5-13, and as our 5 year old is no longer our ‘little baby’, I get increasing pressure to prepare for a new pregnancy from DH who is in turn pressured ( I believe) by some members of his church community where large families seem to be the rule.

We are grateful to be comfortably off and do not have any economic reasons to avoid another pregnancy.I am healthy and have been lucky to have 4 straightforward pregnancies so cannot cite health as a reason to avoid.

At present, we use NFP very strictly observing all necessary abstinence with no lapses to using withdrawal or other methods.

So, our debate revolves round whether we continue to use NFP to avoid; whether we stop our abstinence to increase the likelihood of a pregnancy; or use NFP to seek a pregnancy.

I would like to focus my attention our 4 and them growing up … but am I being selfish or sinful in reluctance and taking an easy option? And also disappointing DH or even worse drawing him into my sin ?

Your views would be truly helpful in my thoughts – especially as a Catholic community you will all have a perspective on the moral issues as opposed to practical ones I have.

Without getting into the wider argument I think most would agree that NFP to avoid has to be a fully mutual decision - so it is for you to agree with you husband.

Well done for pointing out that abstinence should mean abstinence !

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

497. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

(NFP when used to avoid is a form of periodic continence)

As to if you have such a reason - that is something you would discern with your husband -before God- and you might wish to discuss too with your Husbands Pastor or another faithful Priest.
**
The Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church notes:**

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.
2. The judgment concerning the interval of time between births, and that regarding the number of children, belongs to the spouses alone. This is one of their inalienable rights, to be exercised before God with due consideration of their obligations towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society[528].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[Marysann]

Dear jeanj, please do not take offense at the poster who seemed to shout at you about becoming a Catholic. Please take it as an invitation to consider the Catholic Church. I know that my own mother, who was from a devout Southern Baptist family, did not join the Catholic Church until she as 70. When asked why, she said that no one ever asked her. What has impressed me is your willingness to live your married life according to the teachings of the Catholic Church when most Catholics don’t even do that. Please accept my prayers for you and your husband for a happy home and marriage.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you all for replies so far … I will post fully in a few days when I see and consider all replies.

To answer points made so far, of course, I am discussing with DH and that must for me be the final decider, I guess it is the few in his community who are pushing us that I feel unhappy with - but he is swayed by their views and I do not wish to cause any upsets so listen respectfully

And for the poster who said ‘WHY ARENT YOU CATHOLIC???’ … can I say very gently and kindly, I do not think this in big capitals is helpful to anyone? If these posts are only for Catholics, then someone should say so?
I joined these forums as a non-Catholic to be able to understand and be in sympathy with DH faith and beliefs. I also go to his church - as he goes to mine- at times to give us both a place in our respective communities.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I was a little surprised by the comment, but I am sure I have misunderstood the sentiment behind it.

I’m sorry, sometimes text on a page does not convey emotion well. I could have expressed myself better. What I meant was. Welcome to the forums and thanks for posting.
Your situation is unique because you have an established marriage with children and you are very respectful of your husbands faith. Up to and including participating in obedience in something a majority of Catholics are not faithful enough to do (practice nfp)
So I was jovially wondering why Catholicism is not your religion since you seem so open to a major principle of it. I was wondering what your stumbling block could be in joining us fine folk. In a “come on in the water is fine” “swim the Tiber” kind of way.
Sorry if it came off rough.

 

[jeanj]

Thank you for your kind reply! I misunderstood you, so sorry for that and I guess I am over-sensitive at moment!

For NFP and contraception at least, the gap on belief is not so great between Catholics and conservative/traditional Protestants which is how I see myself. It was only 1930s when anglican church ‘approved’ it in certain circumstances so I do not regard my joining with DH on stopping contraception as a big deal. But to come back to my post, another pregnancy is something we have to think though .

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for your kind reply! I misunderstood you, so sorry for that and I guess I am over-sensitive at moment!

For NFP and contraception at least, the gap on belief is not so great between Catholics and conservative/traditional Protestants which is how I see myself. It was only 1930s when anglican church ‘approved’ it in certain circumstances so I do not regard my joining with DH on stopping contraception as a big deal. .

Yes all Protestants were rather in agreement with us on that issue until that door opened in 1930.

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/protestants-against-contraception

 

[Norseman82]

Your husband should tell those people to shove off (politely) if they are sticking their noses into your business.

This, although if they don’t back off he may need to be not polite.